6.0 Paladin Discussion and Speculation (All Specs)

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The thing is, Inq _DOESN'T_ provide any unique gameplay. It takes up the same resource and GCD cost as Templar's. If Inq was removed, you just press an extra TV a minute instead.

Which arguably would lead to more DPS(This is barring all the scaling/balancing stuff). It would benefit PVP to. Can Inq be dispelled in PVP? I don't PVP as Ret(Holy Healer here!). Either way, what I'd like back is a consecrate like move or Holy Wrath. I liked both.

[Bolt66]

I never found Inq hard to keep up but as many have said, it's annoying. Especially for trash. We're already not that great in certain AoE situations (especially without the 4pc) and having to press Inq in that scenario instead of an active damage spell doesn't feel great.
I do wish the would do something more interesting with Art of War though. Maybe they could get rid of the Exo glyph and have AoW buff your next Exo (auto crit or something) or allow the next DS used while AoW buff is up to spread Censure. That way it's usable for both AoE and single target. I would also love to see Divine Purpose put in as baseline. It was always my favorite talent from that row but unfortunately it was not that optimal choice for most situations this expansion.

I know you guys are deep in your Inq debate but since this is a 6.0 topic, I would like to see an interesting (non-damage related) mechanic for Ret that is actually noticeable. The only place I really enjoyed throwing out heals as Ret was in pvp but even that's not that great anymore. In raids, I throw out a few heals/hand spells when I see people need it but no one ever notices and I wish we had something better and more fun. On my warrior, it's fun to charge around or shockwave. On my warlock, portals and zapping back and forth. Shaman, ghost wolf. My paladin is by far my most boring toon, but it's my main because it was my first character and I liked the Lore/aesthetics. I really wish they would give some new and interesting ability on a medium cd that I actually look forward to using, as opposed to a button that gives the same old damage or heal mechanic. Tirion's charge from WotLK comes to the mind or I wouldn't even mind if they rip off the crusader from D3, anything interesting!

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The thing is, Inq _DOESN'T_ provide any unique gameplay. It takes up the same resource and GCD cost as Templar's. If Inq was removed, you just press an extra TV a minute instead.

and Execution Sentence, Sacred Shield, Seals and so on adds what unique gameplay? Not everything HAS to be fucking sparkles, fluff and rainbows for it to be worth doing...

[Deleted]

The big problem with Art of War procs is the poor scaling of Exorcism damage. While at the beginning of MoP Exorcism had the highest priority of our filler spells (except Hammer of Wrath of course) it went downhill quickly. Crusader Strike benefits from our mastery and got buffed through the change to our 2H specialisation and Judgment also scales with Weapon damage and was therefore buffed. Exorcism on the other hand only scales with our rising atttack power and the other two options do the same. That is why Exorcism went from a button you wanted to press and you were happy to see being reset through Art of War procs to something you now think - "oh well, do not even care you procced...hmpf..." If anything Art of War should add something that we always would want to prioritise high. That could really be a Hammer of Wrath or that you deal the same damage of exorcism additionally as a damge over time effect to keep away from too much burst and PVP implications or that the Glyph effect comes into play that Exorcism deals damage to everything within 8 yards or the proposal to spread censure although I do not like that one too much to be honest. We are no Dot Melee class, we are mostly a DPS class that deals direct damage with a small Dot added on top and I think we want to stay that way. Let those Dks and Arms Warriors be the melee dot children.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Arms warriors only have one dot.

[Deleted]

Why make an assessment on the assumption that the talents will launch unbalanced?
Even if they don't end perfectly balanced, the goal is getting them to be balanced.
Remember it'll be 2 GCD wasted every 20 seconds plus whatever damage loss from not using the best Seal all the time vs the benefit of the buffs.

The problem with that talent is that it needs to be the highest dps or its never going to work.

None is ever going to pick a talent that requires seals being managed every 20 secs when a passive is better.

[Fhi]

Not everything HAS to be fucking sparkles, fluff and rainbows for it to be worth doing...

Please don't put words into our mouth. Nowhere did we say that we're not a fan of Inq because it isn't visually attractive. Getting tired of us being painted as shallow rets who can't handle putting up Inq because it's not visually attractive or we don't want the Inq buff because it isn't meaningful. If you can directly quote someone who did say that, please do so.

We get it, you like Inq. Some of us (and apparently Blizzard thinks it's bloat) think it doesn't add to gameplay. You do. That's fine. It's completely subjective. But it's not fair when things neither side said start being used as the core of the discussion. Because then it turns into a "no you said" "no I didn't" "no I said you said".

I've said a few pages back that we want the Inq buff to STAY, but even that got lost.

On the other hand, it's nice to have such level of excitement around here.

[Deleted]

But Deep Wounds is something they can spread nearly as much and easy as they like and does far more damage than our pitiful censure stacks that even have to stack to five to deal the full amount - honestly, that's quite the difference. Deep Wounds ticks nearly as strong as Deathknight deseases combined.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

But Deep Wounds is something they can spread nearly as much and easy as they like and does far more damage than our pitiful censure stacks that even have to stack to five to deal the full amount - honestly, that's quite the difference. Deep Wounds ticks nearly as strong as Deathknight deseases combined.

It's still one bloody dot. It got buffed recently in MoP and used to be weaker so I don't see your point. Also I agree with Fhi. It's getting a tad annoying of the hyperbole going around(We've all done it sometime).

[Deleted]

Oh my god...it sure was a purposeful overstatement from my side to emphasize that we are no dot class to begin with and that there are three other melee specs that already fill that niche so that we should really stay away from that route to not become the fourth one. More often then not you should take arguments with a pinch of salt so please calm down.

We are far from being comparable to Arms, Frost or Unholy for that matter in being able to spread our one dot to as many targets as we like.

[nightfalls]

None is ever going to pick a talent that requires seals being managed every 20 secs when a passive is better.

Even if it were highest DPS, it would be a fucking miserable talent. Inquisition even before the buff is far, far preferable when it comes to "management" work.

[anaxie]

The big problem with Art of War procs is the poor scaling of Exorcism damage. While at the beginning of MoP Exorcism had the highest priority of our filler spells (except Hammer of Wrath of course) it went downhill quickly. Crusader Strike benefits from our mastery and got buffed through the change to our 2H specialisation and Judgment also scales with Weapon damage and was therefore buffed. Exorcism on the other hand only scales with our rising atttack power and the other two options do the same. That is why Exorcism went from a button you wanted to press and you were happy to see being reset through Art of War procs to something you now think - "oh well, do not even care you procced...hmpf..." If anything Art of War should add something that we always would want to prioritise high. That could really be a Hammer of Wrath or that you deal the same damage of exorcism additionally as a damge over time effect to keep away from too much burst and PVP implications or that the Glyph effect comes into play that Exorcism deals damage to everything within 8 yards or the proposal to spread censure although I do not like that one too much to be honest. We are no Dot Melee class, we are mostly a DPS class that deals direct damage with a small Dot added on top and I think we want to stay that way. Let those Dks and Arms Warriors be the melee dot children.

You got the scaling of abilities 100% wrong btw. Everything that doesn't say weapon damage scales only with AP. It's just Exo is the only spell based attack and is not susceptible to our melee attack % mechanics which is a pretty big joke.

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Even if it were highest DPS, it would be a fucking miserable talent. Inquisition even before the buff is far, far preferable when it comes to "management" work.

Seal swapping / twisting is already a dps loss until they are off the GCD. Ever try to swap seals then attack and GCD gets inturrupted and you end up with no seal on atall.

Yeah fuck that.

[Deleted]

Okay, than I remembered the thing with Judgment and Weapon damage scaling wrong - was quite sure to have read that somewhere but okay, should have double checked to be totally sure but what is it with having the scaling totally wrong? Sure that totally means Judgment scales as comparably good/bad as Exorcism. Please enlighten me. Your own priority list says to use CS > Judgment > Exorcism and nothing else did I say about the current situation.

[nightfalls]

You got the scaling of abilities 100% wrong btw. Everything that doesn't say weapon damage scales only with AP. It's just Exo is the only spell based attack and is not susceptible to our melee attack % mechanics which is a pretty big joke.

Yeah, I might be wrong, but I thought that it was low on the priority list because 1) it doesn't proc Seal of Truth, and 2) it doesn't proc Hand of Light.

[Gracin]

Also! Speaking of, any word on Paladin changes/L100 abilities since Blizzcon?
We put Seal of Faith back on our Shelf of Ideas That Have Potential But Aren't Ready For Primetime Yet.

Well I guess the Seal of Faith discussion can end now.

[Deleted]

Thank god they changed their mind with Seal of Faith. I am really looking forward to the new replacement.

[Eon Drache]

Well I guess the Seal of Faith discussion can end now.

Really hope we get something a bit more interesting in its place. As ret, and a PvE player, it was a boring ass talent.

[anaxie]

Okay, than I remembered the thing with Judgment and Weapon damage scaling wrong - was quite sure to have read that somewhere but okay, should have double checked to be totally sure but what is it with having the scaling totally wrong? Sure that totally means Judgment scales as comparably good/bad as Exorcism. Please enlighten me. Your own priority list says to use CS > Judgment > Exorcism and nothing else did I say about the current situation.

Judgement is a melee attack

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Yeah, I might be wrong, but I thought that it was low on the priority list because 1) it doesn't proc Seal of Truth, and 2) it doesn't proc Hand of Light.

its low because it doesnt scale with sword of light

[Deleted]

and Execution Sentence, Sacred Shield, Seals and so on adds what unique gameplay? Not everything HAS to be fucking sparkles, fluff and rainbows for it to be worth doing...

It's pretty obvious what those things add to the class.

Look at it like this. If Inq's current active is replaced then an extra TV takes old Inq's spot in the input list. THEN you get new-Inq ontop of that, adding additional gameplay that didn't exist before. See? Instead of 4 buttons, you'd have 5. It's really that simple. Instead of right now where Inq and TV cost and "act" the same way in terms of what they do rotationally (which is remove resources and trigger a GCD). Instead of them being collusive (prob. the wrong word), they are mutually exclusive which creates extra buttons without extra gameplay.

This is my last post on the matter since it's dominating the thread a bit. Hopefully this simple explanation can help you see the potential benefit of changing Inquisition into something else.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Oh my god...it sure was a purposeful overstatement from my side to emphasize that we are no dot class to begin with and that there are three other melee specs that already fill that niche so that we should really stay away from that route to not become the fourth one. More often then not you should take arguments with a pinch of salt so please calm down.

We are far from being comparable to Arms, Frost or Unholy for that matter in being able to spread our one dot to as many targets as we like.

Death Knights always could spread diseases(Plaguebringer ftw). I am calm, my accusation of Hyperbole wasn't at you specifically.