6.0 Paladin Discussion and Speculation (All Specs)

[Deleted]

Also what you guys think the devs will cut from us to reduce button bloat? , they've said they want to get rid of ~20% of what all classes and specs have .

Hopefully turn evil gone for all specs, crusader strike, hammer of wrath and blinding light for holy (or make blinding light instant again). Reduction of the cooldown abilities would also be nice but that is pretty much confirmed.

Would also like to see seal of truth and righteousness merge into one and most importantly for blue rage to return (although im sure this would never happen). I would also like to see Eternal Flame deleted from the game but that probably wont happen either.

[nightfalls]

Hopefully turn evil gone for all specs, crusader strike, hammer of wrath and blinding light for holy (or make blinding light instant again). Reduction of the cooldown abilities would also be nice but that is pretty much confirmed. Would also like to see seal of truth and righteousness merge into one and most importantly for blue rage to return (although im sure this would never happen). I would also like to see Eternal Flame deleted from the game but that probably wont happen either.

The cooldown row could really use some work. Perhaps Blinding Light (as instant form) could go there. As a 2 minute CD that lasts only 3-6 seconds (stun versus disorient) it's nice but sort of anemic compared to other class abilities (shockwave for instance) even with an instant cast. Turn Evil could just go away.

Hammer of Wrath is one of those iconic Paladin abilities that I actually enjoy using as Holy even though it's pretty useless (so basically, it can go). I'd much rather see CS and HoW removed but Judgment actually not hitting like a dissolved (not even wet) noodle and Denounce being worth casting.

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I can't disagree with Aladya's statement earlier that at the end of the day, Holy Paladin abilities just plain out suck right now. We have two HP finishers one of which is just weak (Light of Dawn) and only used because the other one (Word of Glory without EF) is even worse. Actual non-talented (read: 90 row) heals consist of 4 abilities, one of which (Holy Light) might as well not be there, and the other 3 used more from their HP than for their healing. The talented 90 ability is a 20 second minimum cooldown that only heals 5 targets, maximum.

Compare to a Priest with POM, Flash Heal, Renew (instant primarily for PvP and movement only), Power Word: Shield (actually meaningfully different from Flash Heal), choice 90 talent that are all on short CD's and all of which hit more than 5 people (maximum), Smite + Holy Fire (healing abilities), and Penance. That's not counting the junk/repeated abilities (like Greater Heal, Binding Heal instead of Flash Heal) - though for most raids, you can count renew as "junk."

I'm not saying they are perfect either (POM is sort of crappy, I already mentioned Renew) but even not being perfect they have more than 5 "building block" abilities to use.

[Raeph]

All the CC being baked into lvl 30 teir could be an option as well.

Turn evil baked into "Evil is a point of view" and Hammer of Justice into "Fist of Justice". The "hands" could be trimmed a bit also with Salvation and Sacrifice at the top.

For Prot I would like to see Hammer of the Righteous trimmed, and replaced with a passive: The damage of your crusader strike is added to your next Holy Wrath, up to a 50% increase in the damage of Holy Wrath. Combined with Consecration, it should be all the AoE aggro we need, and will give a high amount of snap AoE aggro as well.

Looking through the rest of the abilities list I don't seem anything else that stands out from a prot perspective. Prot Pally's seem to be built around the "utility tank" paradigm so a certain level of a tools is necessary.

[Deleted]

All the CC being baked into lvl 30 teir could be an option as well.

Turn evil baked into "Evil is a point of view" and Hammer of Justice into "Fist of Justice". The "hands" could be trimmed a bit also with Salvation and Sacrifice at the top.

For Prot I would like to see Hammer of the Righteous trimmed, and replaced with a passive: The damage of your crusader strike is added to your next Holy Wrath, up to a 50% increase in the damage of Holy Wrath. Combined with Consecration, it should be all the AoE aggro we need, and will give a high amount of snap AoE aggro as well.

Looking through the rest of the abilities list I don't seem anything else that stands out from a prot perspective. Prot Pally's seem to be built around the "utility tank" paradigm so a certain level of a tools is necessary.

Somehow, I don't see how adding 62.5% weapon damage to a spell that already sucks at snap aggro because it meteors will help us. No, what prot needs is a rework of CS and HotR - they need to be calculated differently for Prot and Ret so they don't do such abysmal damage as Prot. That and perhaps capping Holy Wrath at say, 6 targets, and having it do only 50% damage to secondary targets but not having it meteor, would do much to fix our current issues.

[MetroStratics]

I'll wait to see what actually happens when Beta is out to speculate, but it would be nice to bring some better CDs to a 20 man raid group.
Paladin CDs are strong throughput cds but not reliable enough to stand up with abilities like Tranq, Divine Hymn, Healing Tide, and even Revival.

More damage wouldn't hurt either, as pretty much every other spec has some massive potential to benefit from damage aside from Paladins.

[Lovestar]

I'd go the opposite direction, personally — HotR is absolutely iconic to me, that brrrrrrring! sound is part of what makes my Pally.

I'd rather see Holy Wrath just go, with a glyph to add the Stun vs. Evil Stuff perk into Consecration's initial tick. To me Holy Wrath never felt like it really had any place or purpose and was just hit with a sledgehammer over and over and over again in an attempt to give it something to do.

I mean personally, I'm totally happy with how Pally is right this second — there's stuff I like about Holy Wrath as much as any other ability. But if something must be simplified down, Holy Wrath is high on my list of expendables.

(I'd rather leave well enough alone, though :p)

[Delinkthaum]

As a Holy Paladin in a [currently] 10 man raiding setting, I'm feeling rather underwhelmed with the changes headed our way.

It's been said previously, but the only remotely compelling level 100 talent allows us to cast Beacon on a second target. On paper, this is great, but the whole first-cast swaps to third target on third-cast means that we can't actually benefit from Tower of Radiance unless we're healing the Beaconed targets (presumably both tanks under the current paradigm). Other than that, it just brings us further closer to the WotLK model of ignoring tank healing and laughing menacingly while spamming the raid.

Looking forward to seeing if/how the level 100 talents get changed through the Beta and how they handle ability bloat (don't take away my 4 CDs!)...

[Deleted]

Looking forward to seeing if/how the level 100 talents get changed through the Beta and how they handle ability bloat (don't take away my 4 CDs!)...

Pls take away crap CDs and give us something competitive to tranq or HTT. PLS PLS PLS

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I just want current Ret and Prot 4pc to be baseline ability really... or I am going to miss casting EF without any HP spent , also would like to see DP as passive but I guess that is too much to ask :O

I'm ok with that. We're level 100 >.>

I think the Lightning Emperor 4p set bonus might be a nice proc. Yeah we have a few procs already but it's nice. The 2 pc and 4pc bonus of the current tiers seem a bit lack lustere IMO.

[Blizzhoof]

Hand of Salvation merged with Freedom. In PvE you almost never need Freedom

I freedom on Protectors, Galakras, Malkorok, and Garrosh nearly every week. I also had to use it on H Will of the Emperor progression to survive. It's useful on trash as well. It would suck to never be able to freedom yourself as protection.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd go the opposite direction, personally — HotR is absolutely iconic to me, that brrrrrrring! sound is part of what makes my Pally.

I'd rather see Holy Wrath just go, with a glyph to add the Stun vs. Evil Stuff perk into Consecration's initial tick. To me Holy Wrath never felt like it really had any place or purpose and was just hit with a sledgehammer over and over and over again in an attempt to give it something to do.

I mean personally, I'm totally happy with how Pally is right this second — there's stuff I like about Holy Wrath as much as any other ability. But if something must be simplified down, Holy Wrath is high on my list of expendables.

(I'd rather leave well enough alone, though :p)

I love tanking on my Paladin but you can not be happy with our snap threat. Holy Wrath meteoring is a holdover from when it was ret only to prevent them from crushing AoE fights and hasn't been touched since. HotR needs to be removed or dramatically buffed as do seal of Righteousness and Holy Wrath.

[Kantalope]

Protectors? What do you use freedom for on protectors :O ? I guess removing the debuff from beer that Rook throws, but you really shouldn't get hit from that anyway, and he never throws it at tanks. And what about galakras? I never use it on that fight , or is there a secret debuff that slows you down?

Oh, when I said 'he never throws it at tanks' since I am always a tank , so I respond to people as they were tanks too. So , sorry for that if I was a bit arrogant there ^^.

But I guess you could use Emancipate to remove it aswell instead of Freedom.

Sometimes the barrel can get tossed into melee, and shit happens. Galakras, the first tower miniboss has a thunderclap that slows.

[Kantalope]

Ohhh, true , last time I went up the towers was the first 1-2 weeks of SoO. Never went up again after. My bad.

I always go up in the towers now since our other tank re-rolled monk. I'm lucky to be able to keep 1 add off of his rushing jade wind, lol.

[Deleted]

As a Protadin I'm not sure I really like any of them.

Holy Shield feels a bit... anticlimactic? Boring as a lvl 100 ability when really it's just a passive version of what we used to have...

Seal twisting is not something I particularly want as a tank. Since Vengeance wont affect damaging skills, the 10% AP bonus wouldn't be worth it (base AP is low) which leaves us with dipping to SoR for bonus heals via swings and a little bit of auto-attack damage... meh? I mean, that whole talent just seems like a pile of poo if the intent is that you seal-twist. Neither of the damaging boosts do a lot to Prot's output so you'd be weighing it purely on the 3%/2sec, which is not that great. A lot of effort for a small boost.

SoFaith, idk. Maybe you could use it in a high damage situation to help your healers out a bit more than we're currently able to (boosting Prism/Hammer as a strong raid CD for example) but other than that, 30% is way too much damage to pass on just to do more self-overhealing. SoFaith has potential PvP applications, particularly as a flag runner or defender depending on what the caps on the SP bonus are and how that translates into healing gains... but I don't PvP so.

All in all, I hope they take another look at these from a Prot PoV or I'll be stuck just using Holy Shield forever.

With regards to what I'm hoping for in WoD:

Better snap threat (Especially for AoE, where Consecrate, HotR and Holy Wrath are diabolical compared to Warriors, Bears and Monks)

Stronger skill identity. I don't want to go on a spree and delete everything but here's looking at you HotR. They need to take a look at the overall package and make the distinction between AoE and single target spells, and make the play therein, interesting. It may be that we have *more* overall buttons, but use them in a different way. Right now, all but 1 spell is used in BOTH AoE and single target. On top of that, none of our AoE skills are interesting or synergistic. They're all just "press4damagew84cooldown".

Better control spells. We are undoubtedly the weakest tank when it comes to controlling the battlefield. Blinding Light is not that good due to the CD, duration and breaking condition. Whilst Fist *is* strong, it's not anywhere near the level of Shockwave, Leg Sweep, Remorseless Winter and Disorienting Roar. Then all of those classes also have additional CC and positioning tools that trump BL.

[Delinkthaum]

Pls take away crap CDs and give us something competitive to tranq or HTT. PLS PLS PLS

Good point as well, though popping all 4 CDs -- assuming you specced into Holy Avenger -- can yield HPS on the level of other raid CDs, and it sustains for a longer duration.

[Lovestar]

I love tanking on my Paladin but you can not be happy with our snap threat. Holy Wrath meteoring is a holdover from when it was ret only to prevent them from crushing AoE fights and hasn't been touched since. HotR needs to be removed or dramatically buffed as do seal of Righteousness and Holy Wrath.

Snap is annoying — I was thinking the other day, "Remember when Paladins were the gods of AoE threat?" Hahaha. It feels awkward to have to hold my primary HP generator to ensure reliable opening lockdown on a new pack.

It just feels like a quirk of the spec, though. IMO sustained is smooth and convenient compared to the clunkfest Warrior & Bear go through (seriously, Swipe / Thrash is awful... but IMO so is the rest of Bear), and Brewmaster is also a little spotty when things are flying everywhere (barrels can either be amazing or ruin you depending on your throwing arm).

I can't comment on DK since I don't like the style, but from noodling around with it in PTR challenge modes it seems to have very reliable AoE pickup and sustain. It is a lot smoother / more fun, but that may be an ideal for the other 4 tanks to aspire to. It would mean tradeoffs though (like Warrior's nutter levels of add control).

I don't consider Holy Wrath AoE tbh, it's just that button I hit when I run out of better ideas for 1.2 seconds. It is useful when all you need is a quick tag on fresh stuff (since any amount of threat will do), and that's why I would miss it — it's one extra tool in the box I do use (Hammer for burst in-range threat, Consec for anticipated threat, Wrath for quick out-of-range taps).

[Deleted]

Snap is annoying — I was thinking the other day, "Remember when Paladins were the gods of AoE threat?" Hahaha. It feels awkward to have to hold my primary HP generator to ensure reliable opening lockdown on a new pack.

It just feels like a quirk of the spec, though. IMO sustained is smooth and convenient compared to the clunkfest Warrior & Bear go through, and Brewmaster is also a little spotty when things are flying everywhere (barrels can either be amazing or ruin you depending on your throwing arm).

What do you find clunky about Warrior and Bear AoE? For the most part it's hitting a button which does snap + applies a dot, then hitting the other AoE buttons they have to their heart's content(Cleave/Shock/Roar/Swipe). Once one has initial aggro, Vengeance will let you keep it.

Also, I personally think DKs have one of the clunkiest opening AoE rotations :P No thanks to that!

Edit: That said, once you've done your setup on a DK, they seem to be very easy to sustain with.

[Lovestar]

Yeah I should clarify, Warrior isn't difficult or unpleasant (unless you get surprised and things scatter, then it can be a huge PITA, but that's part of the Warrior 'thing' that they get frustrated by ranged issues). But inserting TClaps/etc. in is clunk that takes away from proccing more Rage; it's a very deliberate action that feels like a conscious pause in your 'productive' rotation.

Likewise for Bear, Swiping is pure filler that doesn't proc Mangle so there's this clunky tension between generating more Rage or adding more threat. Thrash does proc it, but then you have to drop what you're 'doing' (in AoE terms) to use that Mangle. And if you get caught with Thrash cooling at a bad time it can be a very awkward few GCDs because Swipe alone (unbled) is a bit anemic. Plus it's entirely melee-limited (target requirement) so you can feel a bit constrained in terms of reaction fluidity.

With Pally what I meant is that once you get the initial lockdown, everything you do for AoE is 100% supportive of what you want to do anyway — Hammer on CD is the +HP you crave, and Wrath / Consec / Prism|Hammer fill gaps where you wouldn't be doing anything better anyway. It has a very organic, pleasant, natural flow to it no matter how many targets are present and a bit of flexibility.

Again I don't touch DK much because it bugs me for a lot of reasons, so I may not be playing 'optimally' or anything close. But I glyph Outbreak and do Roiling Blood, so within 1 GCD of 'filler' I'm already coating things in explosive BB burst and then disease ticks everywhere and DND from a Scarlet Fever proc just seals the deal. Really flexible, really smooth. (The time to Outbreak or IT > PS on the way in is not much different than setting up a proper TClap > Shockwave, Thrash > Swipe, getting into position for HotR, etc).

I know everyone's style is different so I'm not trying to speak in absolute truths. I just see Pally as having it pretty good once you capture everything.

The capture, though, I understand. If things slip away due to a GCD going wrong, it can be a huge PITA to get everything back together. That initial Hammer feels disproportionately crucial and I'm a little uncomfy with the urge to not touch CrS of all things, when I'm anticipating a mess might spawn soon.

Because yeah, seeing 10 adds spawn in a clump, realizing CrS has 2.2 seconds left, and seeing my options as:

• Consecrate
• Holy Wrath
• Holy Prism

Causes expletives IRL. Because half the stuff is probably going to go streaming right past my yellow flour puff and sparkle lasers.

I guess it's a double-edge sword from our AoE being productive for AM. Warrior is equally hosed if TClap is down when a clump pops, but Warrior also usually loses nothing from just holding TClap indefinitely.

[Deleted]

HW/L90 talent and Consecration are the same as TC+Cleave/Swipe+Thrash in terms of drawback. The fact is that you have to use them in your opener or you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of grabbing the pile of mobs from another tank who IS going to use those skills right away. So really the result is the same; all tanks sacrifice resource generation for AoE damage/initial threat where they can afford to. No tanks will be able to spam AoE indefinitely either. With Warriors and Druids they're somewhat restricted by the cooldowns on AoE skills, just as we are. The only tank currently able to generate resource whilst AoEing is the Monk (and to a lesser extent, DKs with Runic Power)

I think part of the reason Paladin feels natural to you, is that we use all of our skills regardless of what we're fighting. Boss or 20 mobs, we'll still use HW and Consecration as fillers, and HotR is just a CS variant, so it's not a big deal shifting them up the priority list a little bit.

As a Warrior you're not really inserting Cleaves and TCs (besides keeping the debuff up if required) on single targets because there's just no need to, same thing with a Monk and SCK - they just aren't constrained by having cooldowns on everything like we are, and are much more resource-driven with each having free fillers for dry periods to use instead. Consecrate and HW are simply required to fill "dead" space even in our single-target rotation. Druids have it too, but to a lesser extent in using Thrash to keep the bleed up.

[Deleted]

Good point as well, though popping all 4 CDs -- assuming you specced into Holy Avenger -- can yield HPS on the level of other raid CDs, and it sustains for a longer duration.

Maybe in 10 man but surely not in 25 :P

Plus the mana difference during the use of those cds is insane.

[Kosha]

Looks like those concerned with Seal of Faith can relax for now. "Celestalon: We put Seal of Faith back on our Shelf of Ideas That Have Potential But Aren't Ready For Primetime Yet." It's right there to see on his twitter account if you want confirmation.