Blizzard Store: How much is too much?

[Ryme]

Essentially, where is the breaking point?

The answer is there isn't one, so long as Blizzard keeps smart with how they're incrementally introducing it. If they right now offered you a full LFR set, the uproar would be pretty strong.

However, if they first offered you a full basic green set at 100 not many would mind (the forums would again be aflush with "Not p2w, what do you win with greens?", then once that has become a recognised feature, you add in a full blue set - you can then draw on the fact the fallacy that because you ok with the full green that the full blue isn't a big a deal. Rince and repeat.

Remember, at one point, the idea of an in game store was laughably obscene - now look where we are

I will add though, that for me personally, my breaking point is gear at level comparable with organised raiding since it diminishes the value of the part of the game I enjoy.

[Deleted]

WoW has now gone to the point of a new payment scheme. No, it's not P2W or F2P or Pay2Play...

WoW has gone Pay2Pay.

It affects me in ways that makes WoW enjoyable for me and that's all that needs to be said.
Either way though, this is disgusting and I can't handle it anymore. RIP WoW, you'll be missed


None of it matters, it's a game. If you want to buy a fully Heroic raid geared toon with maxed out mount and pets, what does this affect anyone?

It's shit logic like this that leads to a games slutty slutty end.

Baby doesn't get his own way, spits dummy out.

[Vaelorian]

Essentially, where is the breaking point?

The answer is there isn't one, so long as Blizzard keeps smart with how they're incrementally introducing it. If they right now offered you a full LFR set, the uproar would be pretty strong.

However, if they first offered you a full basic green set at 100 not many would mind (the forums would again be aflush with "Not p2w, what do you win with greens?", then once that has become a recognised feature, you add in a full blue set - you can then draw on the fact the fallacy that because you ok with the full green that the full blue isn't a big a deal. Rince and repeat.

Remember, at one point, the idea of an in game store was laughably obscene - now look where we are

I will add though, that for me personally, my breaking point is gear at level comparable with organised raiding since it diminishes the value of the part of the game I enjoy.

How do you feel about this then:

- Blizzard did not deck the bought-level-90 in greens but in 1st Tier LFR gear from MoP. Is that P2W? Though I understand your trail of thought we are miles away from that still. I doubt that we as players get lulled into such a "trap" but it could happen ofc. Do the naysayers have a point? No but I understand their cautiousness (not their outrage).

To answer my own question, I don't think my LFR 1st Tier level 90 isn't pay to win either as long as that sort of toon becomes available during the next expansion and not while it is current. Though it is not exactly pay to win when it becomes available during the same expansion either, but I could feel more sympathy for the P2W-sayers.

[Ryme]

How do you feel about this then:

- Blizzard did not deck the bought-level-90 in greens but in 1st Tier LFR gear from MoP. Is that P2W? Though I understand your trail of thought we are miles away from that still. I doubt that we as players get lulled into such a "trap" but it could happen ofc. Do the naysayers have a point? No but I understand their cautiousness (not their outrage).

To answer my own question, I don't think my LFR 1st Tier level 90 isn't pay to win either as long as that sort of toon becomes available during the next expansion and not while it is current. Though it is not exactly pay to win when it becomes available during the same expansion either, but I could feel more sympathy for the P2W-sayers.

My opinion on what constitutes pay to win is seemingly different to a lot of other players.

I consider the boost itself to be a p2w, not the gear - or at least, pay2advantage - I can deal with cosmetic items existing on the shop, it bugs me that I will never get to own any of them because I outright refuse to buy something from an in game store on a subscription model, but I've made my peace.

I do have an issue with anything that offers an in game advantage such as the boost. Now here's where everyone goes nuts claiming it already existed in the form of RaF - and they're sort of right, it did. But it was an unbelievably convoluted method which still results in you playing the game to obtain it and is not as it what was intended of the system. A button click Blizzard endorsed boost is a different beast.

I'm not so upset over this that I'm quitting the game and writing off Blizzard, but I do feel upset none the less.

[Kickbuttmario]

It costs a lot. That's what I am saying. $20 for a mount, $25 for a single transfer of one character? These guys are nuts.

[Unholyground]

OP as long as they don't undermine their own endgame progression mechanics I have no problem with anything they add. Hell I would really like to see them add some sub race skins you can only purchase.

- - - Updated - - -

It costs a lot. That's what I am saying. $20 for a mount, $25 for a single transfer of one character? These guys are nuts.

Ya I will never transfer again it cost way too much, but thankfully connected realms eliminates this need almost altogether, and I am pretty sure as of 6.0 you can raid cross server with no restrictions on raids you can enter.

[Templis]

I mean I've always thought that the people from the MMO-Champion community were crazy dumb but really? Transmog helms are pay to win? Cinder Kittens and mounts are pay to win? Level 90s that have just enough gear to get by are pay to win? Do people even know what pay to win is? Pay to win is have a unfair advantage to EVERYONE else that doesn't pay money, not just people who can't be fucked to level an alt and gear it a little. Also, selling level 90s is in no way a "nerf" to the experience of playing the game. If people don't want to quest then they won't quest. If people don't want to put up with idiotic Brazilians that don't know how to play the game then they won't have to. Paid level 90s in no way cheapens your own personal experience because guess what....YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY ONE.

How does it cheapen anyone's experience if I could buy heroic raid gear for my characters then?

[Archimand]

I mean I've always thought that the people from the MMO-Champion community were crazy dumb but really? Transmog helms are pay to win? Cinder Kittens and mounts are pay to win? Level 90s that have just enough gear to get by are pay to win? Do people even know what pay to win is? Pay to win is have a unfair advantage to EVERYONE else that doesn't pay money, not just people who can't be fucked to level an alt and gear it a little. Also, selling level 90s is in no way a "nerf" to the experience of playing the game. If people don't want to quest then they won't quest. If people don't want to put up with idiotic Brazilians that don't know how to play the game then they won't have to. Paid level 90s in no way cheapens your own personal experience because guess what....YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY ONE.

guys guys, you completly misunderstood the posters above

P2W stand for pay 2 whine.

cause thats all they do lately.


here's a hint, if you dont like it quit, you obviously arent enjoying the game if u whine so much about it.

[Tenjen]

because you bought a set of items that take weeks/months to obtain that allow you to vastly outperform them in raids and these items are considered one half of a two part reward for playing the game and doing raids. You still have to earn raid gear. Short cuts put you above them for raid positions. And it wont just be you, it will be the masses willing to throw money at it. You may be a crap player but still outperform good players just cause you BOUGHT the gear that will take them time to earn.

It will leave a bad taste and cheapen the experience of fights being challenging (a fun experience unto itself) and earning rewards for it through gear drops and progressing forward.

Actual stat gear isn't cosmetic. it holds greater weight in the game and affects how hard you hit creatures and bosses compared to everyone else you are playing alongside.

And Blizz isn't selling raid gear.

[Unholyground]

guys guys, you completly misunderstood the posters above

P2W stand for pay 2 whine.

cause thats all they do lately.


here's a hint, if you dont like it quit, you obviously arent enjoying the game if u whine so much about it.

Most people who are whining aren't even playing the game right now I would suspect.

[Templis]

because you bought a set of items that take weeks/months to obtain that allow you to vastly outperform them in raids and these items are considered one half of a two part reward for playing the game and doing raids. You still have to earn raid gear. Short cuts put you above them for raid positions. And it wont just be you, it will be the masses willing to throw money at it. You may be a crap player but still outperform good players just cause you BOUGHT the gear that will take them time to earn.

It will leave a bad taste and cheapen the experience of fights being challenging (a fun experience unto itself) and earning rewards for it through gear drops and progressing forward.

Actual stat gear isn't cosmetic. it holds greater weight in the game and affects how hard you hit creatures and bosses compared to everyone else you are playing alongside.

And Blizz isn't selling raid gear.

I'm guessing this is a response to me, so I'll ask:

1) Don't players kill heroic bosses for the challenge? Otherwise what is the point of heroic raiding? Every single heroic raider who has dropped their opinion regarding the tiering of WoW's raids has said that the gear is a means to an end and not a reward. I have never, except in the lower difficulty tiers, heard of gear be referred to as a reward. The reward is always to kill the boss and the thrill in doing so.

2) How does it leave a bad taste if it does not affect their characters at all? They can keep doing whatever it was before I purchased my gear.

3) Short cuts always provide advantages over those who don't buy them. If you play on a PVP server, buying a 90 lets you hang out in Thrallmar and kill people that decided they'd rather not. It saves you a tremendous amount of time. You don't have to bother wasing JP on heirlooms. You can slow others in their progress. You can join a guild and start raiding right away. And so on.

[Deleted]

Convenience items I am fine with. Xp boosts, insta-90's (especially as the tech was developed with half an eye on a boost for purchasers of WoD and therefore an acceptable development cost) and so forth. It is also something demanded by quite a few players. Pretty sure the stuff mentioned in the subsequent paragraphs have not been asked for. Server transfers have always been unacceptable given that they are often necessary to find groups to play with.

Mounts, pets and anything that requires the use or artists and animators, whose wages are paid for by the subscription service, are and always have been unacceptable in a subscription game.

Their efforts should be solely on the product at hand. If they feel they have to increase the price of the service due to added costs and inflation, they should do it. Market demand will decide if the increase is acceptable for the product they supply. If the market decides it is not acceptable, then they will have to accept a lower profit margin.

If they can prove that the wages of those involved come from other sources than income from their subscription service, then fine. I think they would find that very hard to prove given just how much of blizzard's yearly gross comes from WoW subscriptions.

I can see why the paid 90 service has got people on edge. Most people who play the game regularly love it and invest a lot of time into it. If they are forced to leave because of shady business practices, it will be upsetting, and justifiably so. One does not mind leaving because the game no longer provides enjoyment, but being forced out by greed is something completely different.

I don't think the paid 90 does set us down the road of the true pay to win model we all fear, at least it does not take us any further down the road than we were already with the pet and mount stores. I believe that a massive percentile of those who use the 90 service will be players who already levelled a lot of characters and don't want to do it again to have more end game options.

WoW has been on the edge since the introduction of that retarded horse. I hope blizzard have the sense to not push it over, but I don't believe the paid 90 makes any difference to the current revenue landscape.

[Vaelorian]

I'm guessing this is a response to me, so I'll ask:

1) Don't players kill heroic bosses for the challenge? Otherwise what is the point of heroic raiding? Every single heroic raider who has dropped their opinion regarding the tiering of WoW's raids has said that the gear is a means to an end and not a reward. I have never, except in the lower difficulty tiers, heard of gear be referred to as a reward. The reward is always to kill the boss and the thrill in doing so.

Yes the reward is killing the boss but also being very high (as high as possible) ranked on the worldladder. A lot of raiders are raiders because they want to be competitive towards other guilds (be it on their server or not). If you give everyone full heroic epics BiS, there are a whole bunch of people suddenly capable of surpassing YOU or YOUR guild because you did not buy BiS gear. While normally due to skill and dedication you would be nr 1 or some other high number.

2) How does it leave a bad taste if it does not affect their characters at all? They can keep doing whatever it was before I purchased my gear.

See 1. I am quite sure that you are empathic enough to see how this could leave a bad taste in peoples mouths like those described.

3) Short cuts always provide advantages over those who don't buy them. If you play on a PVP server, buying a 90 lets you hang out in Thrallmar and kill people that decided they'd rather not. It saves you a tremendous amount of time. You don't have to bother wasing JP on heirlooms. You can slow others in their progress. You can join a guild and start raiding right away. And so on.

Again this is not an advantage on the grand scheme of things. You as a character HARDLY will make a dent in anyone's progress pvpwise if you decide to jump to 90. Besides EVERYONE gets a free 90 who buys WOD.

[Deleted]

WoW has now gone to the point of a new payment scheme. No, it's not P2W or F2P or Pay2Play...

WoW has gone Pay2Pay.

Well now it's more like pay2notplay.

[Deleted]

I think it's too much when the "sub fee alone game" suffers because dev time is prioritising toward shop items that are unavailable to subscribers without paying additional fees.

[Unholyground]

I think it's too much when the "sub fee alone game" suffers because dev time is prioritising toward shop items that are unavailable to subscribers without paying additional fees.

Well this I can partly agree on but on the other hand as an MMO WoW has more unique content per major update than I see with most MMO's

[Deleted]

as long they don't start selling top tier raiding gear or special bonus flasks/pots/something that you can use beside normal stat boosts, im fine with what ever they choose too sell on the store.

let people waste as much money on the store as they want with random bonus junk, as long it doesnt make PvE or PvP p2w

[melodramocracy]

Seeing that the general consensus in these threads tends to be "it doesn't affect your gameplay", then they should be able to sell anything and everything, and the majority of players will accept it.

If store-only mounts, pets, 90's, etc doesn't offend you, raid gear shouldn't either.

[Xintho]

If they can prove that the wages of those involved come from other sources than income from their subscription service, then fine. I think they would find that very hard to prove given just how much of blizzard's yearly gross comes from WoW subscriptions.

Do people not understand how large companies are run? You don't just gather up all of the money just from subscriptions at the end of the months and then cut checks for the people in your office. Activision/Blizzard is a HUGE company with net income coming mostly from game sales, not monthly sub fees. There is money to be invested with other projects and new ventures and acquisitions. It's not just pay these X developers, pay these Y QA/GMs, pay these Z server fees and bank the rest. That's not how things are structured.

http://files.shareholder.com/downloa...ith_tables.pdf

Page 8 tells you the recent earnings of Activision/Blizzard. Their sub fees and licensing fees make up 1/3 of what actual product sales do. These sub fees include WoW but also CoD Elite member fees and also DLC, any server/character transfers, Blizzard store items and so on. So 1/4 of their yearly gross comes from ALL fees across ALL of their games. Doesn't seem like a hell of a lot to me.

[shise]

I don't see any cosmetic armor to be honest, just 3 ugly helmets!

Pets, I don't really care.

Level 90 will be expensive as far as I know so that's how it should be. I hope it doesn't drop below 45€ so it won't affect game play that much. (Less low levels around)

Mounts are the only thing I never liked, it makes no sense. I want to grind a mount for months, get it and have a unique item. I don't see the point when people buy a mount, log in and that person is surrounded by 20 of the same mount, what's so fun about it when everyone has the same mount as you with 0 effort?