Black Rock Mountain revamp

[Sandrox]

They should add all the old dungeons they remove/revamp to the Caverns of Time.

[Tojara]

I hope it's as good as the current revamps. I've been playing since the start and I personally like the new Scholomance way better than the old one. The old one was just misc trash strung throughout the instance, completely cluttered. The old one had options if you were pugging it, but most groups skipped as much as they could regardless of how much warlocks whined to go get them their shoulders.

UBRS does feel like a home, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's still incredibly linear. It could certainly use some new assets and possibly be opened up in a few areas. As far as actual design goes they can't really destroy it, there really wasn't much 'open' about this part.

Personally I feel the area that could be improved the most is the lower part. Yes there were a few ways you could approach this instance, but they could make it far more structured and make each individual area a bit more unique.

Most dungeons, regardless of how much you paint them in positive lights have a linear flow/design to them. It's how well they hide them. Yes there were bosses you could skip in UBRS, but the instance flows rather linearly, and you are basically skipping events/bosses just because.

[Trassk]

The new scholomance is ten time better as the old one.

it looks nicer, but it was made far to linear. The old one had an element of fear around it because of the way it was laid out (and yes, back in early wow I did find the story of scholo something dark and creepy).

[Nalam the Venom]

Let's hope they still have the "leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeroy" room

[CandyCotton Marshmallows]

New Deadmines and Shadowfang are far superior.

Thing is with those two, they didn't really change the entire place. The maps are virtually untouched. Scholo they made it a linear progression instead of the very simple 'wing' system it had. Sunken Temple was butchered as well, taking out the entire top half of it and preventing you from falling down the middle.

It is over-simplified streamlining for PuGs; fine. Then leave a 'classic' version of the instance available as well. Make the classic only usable by premade groups if they need to, so you don't have to stress the people who can't be arsed to learn a simple dungeon.

Now, I don't usually take this side. I'm all for access to as many people as possible; but things like changing Scholo and Sunken Temple because people couldn't figure out something simple, taking those dungeons from an actual experience and dungeon crawler into a straight, no turns path is ludicrous in my eyes. I appreciate them reworking old content, I do. I don't mind the new ZG/ZA, though not as a stand alone patch. For the most part, I don't mind the new SM revamps, though there are some things I miss.

They just need to tone down the dumbing down of the instances. Alternate paths, methods, approaches are a good thing. Maybe they wanted to prevent the skipping of bosses, I could understand it, but I've rarely had people not do the others if asked and the person wasn't short on time. I've rarely cared unless I needed a drop, and always supported the one wanting to do the rest unless I had something going on that needed me to finish, or else I'd have to ask the group to wait for me to get something done (like major bio break or kid/wife needed something).

Catering to the impatience of the ones that just want to speed run from release, imo, is not healthy for the long term of the game. Eventually as we all gear up, every dungeon, even the longest ones, will be sped run to the point 15 minutes will feel like a long run (had people complain about this earlier with a group that stuck together for a few extra heroics, we were massively overgeared for them but they were still upset with not getting the shortest ones).

So ... they could keep it mostly the same, change mobs, and most people will be happy, or they can butcher the thing, some will be happy, some will be disappointed in another streamlined dungeon that used to have more character and depth.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Thing is with those two, they didn't really change the entire place. The maps are virtually untouched. Scholo they made it a linear progression instead of the very simple 'wing' system it had. Sunken Temple was butchered as well, taking out the entire top half of it and preventing you from falling down the middle.

It is over-simplified streamlining for PuGs; fine. Then leave a 'classic' version of the instance available as well. Make the classic only usable by premade groups if they need to, so you don't have to stress the people who can't be arsed to learn a simple dungeon.

Now, I don't usually take this side. I'm all for access to as many people as possible; but things like changing Scholo and Sunken Temple because people couldn't figure out something simple, taking those dungeons from an actual experience and dungeon crawler into a straight, no turns path is ludicrous in my eyes. I appreciate them reworking old content, I do. I don't mind the new ZG/ZA, though not as a stand alone patch. For the most part, I don't mind the new SM revamps, though there are some things I miss.

They just need to tone down the dumbing down of the instances. Alternate paths, methods, approaches are a good thing. Maybe they wanted to prevent the skipping of bosses, I could understand it, but I've rarely had people not do the others if asked and the person wasn't short on time. I've rarely cared unless I needed a drop, and always supported the one wanting to do the rest unless I had something going on that needed me to finish, or else I'd have to ask the group to wait for me to get something done (like major bio break or kid/wife needed something).

Catering to the impatience of the ones that just want to speed run from release, imo, is not healthy for the long term of the game. Eventually as we all gear up, every dungeon, even the longest ones, will be sped run to the point 15 minutes will feel like a long run (had people complain about this earlier with a group that stuck together for a few extra heroics, we were massively overgeared for them but they were still upset with not getting the shortest ones).

So ... they could keep it mostly the same, change mobs, and most people will be happy, or they can butcher the thing, some will be happy, some will be disappointed in another streamlined dungeon that used to have more character and depth.

The issue is these revamped dungeons don't have much because of the lack of story(Barring the Voss storyline) it has in them. Blizzard should improve on them. While the linarity issue doesn't bother me necessarily. Also you can't make the dungeon too long or else it will became a hassle more then being fun.

IMO 15-30 minutes is the decent amount of time it should take.

This is barring CM Modes.

[Xerra]

I miss the part of scholo where it was two brothers racing to get the deeds inside the school. And the psuedo redeeming of Alexi was lame he was a villain just like the rest of his family. Also thought the end of Lillian Voss's story was quite lackluster.

[Kayb]

the reason long dungeons dont work anymore is because everyone wants to faceroll content. the journey is more important than the end or the start. an rpg is a time sink. there is a reason shit takes long to complete, and thats because its about the journey. I feel like i achieved a more worthwhile value out of doing something that took a bit longer and possibly harder route than doing a dungeon that takes all of 15 minutes of aoe pulls

Like old Wailing Caverns, them were the days! It's not as good anymore now.

- - - Updated - - -

They should add all the old dungeons they remove/revamp to the Caverns of Time.

That's not a bad idea actually...

[KCguy]

Oh, god, no. The new Scholomance is horrible.

I like the new one better.

[quras]

IMO the new ones are better. Nostalgia blinds us. Also do it in CM mode and see how it goes.

Nostalgia is why we're having to go back in time and see old NPCs blizzard as has a hard-on for. (Which we killed in another Warcraft game already)

Is nostalgia blind there too?

[Deleted]

it looks nicer, but it was made far to linear. The old one had an element of fear around it because of the way it was laid out (and yes, back in early wow I did find the story of scholo something dark and creepy).

It's better like this, the old one never really had an element of fear, more like an element of bore as all of theses horrible vanilla dungeons such as BRD or Sunken Temple that rarely were cleaned by PUG. Most of the bosses felt inconsistant, the last bosses in Gandling's room were just feeling as "Half-Bosses".

[Florena]

They do, they turn old, outdated and irrelevant dungeons back into something useful. And that without having to create tons of new art assets, saving time for more important things.

The original conception of Scholomance might've been better when it was released than the revamp is when it's released, but the revamps are vastly better than the originals in today's day and age. Confusing mazes as dungeons that take up to 2 hours to complete simply don't work anymore.

This. Sure, old dungeons were great, back in their day, for their time. But the old vanilla dungeons just aren't what they used to be, they're much easier now and largely irrelevant because people blow past 60 quickly.

[Loooolz.looolz]

They should add all the old dungeons they remove/revamp to the Caverns of Time.

YES PLEASE. I miss classic deadmines and scarlet monastery. very much!!
I also didn't like what they made to zul gurub/zul aman.

Also, one dungeon that REALLY need a revamp/remake or turn into a raid is diremaul. That place is SO HUGE for a 5man dungeon. Man that place would be wonderful for a RAID.

[Kelthos]

I like the new Scholomance better in terms of the story, art, and encounters, but miss the old Scholomance's size and the fact it wasn't quite as linear.

As for the topic at hand, I'd imagine that there are going to be some Kor'kron hiding out there, or perhaps the last vestiges of the Old Horde on our Azeroth. Maybe that's where Warlord Zaela will go.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Nostalgia is why we're having to go back in time and see old NPCs blizzard as has a hard-on for. (Which we killed in another Warcraft game already)

Is nostalgia blind there too?

False equiv. I was referring to more then just the lore of the place.

[Aeriel]

Eh the BRS and Schoolo revamps arguments come down to one major difference: original design. BRS was originally a 10man raid instance, which made the larger, less linear design more palatable. Schoolo, Strat, and Sunken Temple were designed as the intro to raiding instances. Personally I'm ok with the Sunken Temple, Strat and, especially, SM (mainly due to the world changes as a whole) changes, but Schoolo just lacks something now. The lack of "optional" bosses is probably one of the big things.

I will agree that the Shadowfang and Deadmines update feels better.

[melodramocracy]

I would prefer they stop tinkering with the classic dungeons.
I hate what they have done with Scholomance, and I'm sure
UBRS will be butchered.

This. The 'revamp' of UBRS will be the demise of one of the few really good dungeons left in the game.

[LazarusLong]

This. The 'revamp' of UBRS will be the demise of one of the few really good dungeons left in the game.

UBRS and especially LBRS were never good. And noone is running them now anyway.

[TheWindWalker]

UBRS and especially LBRS were never good. And noone is running them now anyway.

I do whatever I have to in order to avoid ended up in them. They're absolute garbage in the LFD list.

[Soulwind]

I do whatever I have to in order to avoid ended up in them. They're absolute garbage in the LFD list.

UBRS is not THAT bad, it has a few too many trash mobs but it's overall fairly short and linear. LBRS is one the most messy dungeons in the game. Way, way too much trash, confusing layout and inconsistent background (now you fight trolls, now you fight ogres, now you fight spiders, why were we here again?).

While Scholomance and Sunken Temple were an interesting concept, they were just too long for modern dungeons and the second was a labyrinth most players never understood. And Scarlet Monastery is much more organized now.

Dead Mines is probably the best revamped dungeon they've made so far, they put a lot of new mechanics in there that weren't in previous expansions (we take those for granted now, but dungeon bosses used to be mostly tank&spank). I hope they don't just replace a few mobs and consider it done, if they are going to change (and probably fuse) both LBRS and UBRS, they'll have to change the layout quite a lot for it to make sense.