[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Fredzilla]

I can't imagine seraphim would be 30% of our ratings instead of a flat 30%, as far as the initial cost/duration suggest, because there's literally no chance in hell it would remotely compete with FV or even seal twisting, especially early on. They might have bad ideas when it comes to ret, but i dont think theyre THAT stupid.

[Maegor]

I can't imagine seraphim would be 30% of our ratings instead of a flat 30%, as far as the initial cost/duration suggest, because there's literally no chance in hell it would remotely compete with FV or even seal twisting, especially early on. They might have bad ideas when it comes to ret, but i dont think theyre THAT stupid.

^this. If seraph is amp to ratings and not flat bump, then go ahead and put seraph on the shelf until end xpac.

Earlier it was stated that AW is 20s, and SW is +50% duration, so 30s duration. If HoW is in fact out strongest attack over tv, and possibly FV, then SW has merit.

To me the combos would be seraph+SW or HA, then DP+FV, don't know what seals matches up with.

Disagree that you wouldn't be using seraph close to on cd. If you didn't use it that way then why even take it? Especially if aw really is 180s cd. Also, it doesn't look like it will lower the cd of the 1m cd's since they aren't affected by readiness.

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From today's convert to raid podcast "ret is fine design wise but is slightly weak on numbers" (paraphase). Then they proceeded to talk about the change of execution sentence's healing to burst healing first and then prot's multitrike. Very short segment on Paladins (compared to monks or DKs). Sigh.

I listen to them too, but they only ever have one game mechanics guy on, whether that's darries (sp?), derevka or a BL, method raider on.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

If Seraphim is 30% increased rating then it's going to be underwhelming as hell until the end of WoD assuming you can get enough Readiness stats where it might be broken.
If Seraphim is 30% flat increase then it's strong early on and easier to balance/hotfix if it falls behind the other talents, I can't imagine it's a 30% increase to rating (same goes for other Seraphim temp buffs.

[Maegor]

If Seraphim is 30% increased rating then it's going to be underwhelming as hell until the end of WoD assuming you can get enough Readiness stats where it might be broken.
If Seraphim is 30% flat increase then it's strong early on and easier to balance/hotfix if it falls behind the other talents, I can't imagine it's a 30% increase to rating (same goes for other Seraphim temp buffs.

What's puzzling is if is flat 30% to everything, then it's basically a hero/lust every 30s, which doesn't make sense to me either. That'd be two tv's in that 10s window buffed 30% (add of 30% to haste will put us close to 40% starting tier which in 10s is 9 attacks), with mastery buffed 30%. Much strong. Worth 5hp

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Assuming gcd stays 1.5s

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And that's not including having AW up (additional 20% damage). Or aw+SW, hammer would fill 5 of those 9 attacks, and it's being talked about being stronger than tv. Talk about burst.

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Jesus Christ, mother Mary and Joseph. I keep going back and forth between loving and hating the fucking thing

[jadedfuture]

So they can keep DP-rngfest as a talent. Don't make it baseline/good to the point of mandatory.
And ideally just remove it

DP has always been the most fun part of ret pals, in my opinion. When they gutted it for a talent in MoP that was the crappiest of the three, I knew retpal wouldn't be for me anymore.

[Zabannith]

Plain and simple Seraphaim will only be used IF and only IF it's additive to your ratings not multiplicative for example:

Lets assume that 100 haste rating = 1%haste
so 1000 rating =10% haste +30% rating from seraphim (additive) = 40% haste WHOOOHOOO!!

or assuming the same ratings for haste as above

1000 rating =10% haste *1.30 rating from seraphim (multiplicative)= 1300 rating =13% haste ...not nearly as impressive...

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It will need to be additive to be used , there's no other way around it.. and that's not even getting into the opportunity cost of 5 hp vs using those hp for actual dmg via TV/FV

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Also I agree , we need to come up with a concise , compelling and well though out list of things that we think ret needs to have adjusted or worked on , and we need t o back up our reasoning with why , it's the only way blizz will even bother looking at the list we come up with, we have to show and explain (with data) why we are suggesting these changes

My big ones at the moment are

• Art of War needs a major overhaul.
• Exo has to be meaningful to hit.(ties into art of war and scaling)
• I would really like to see a second proc based around crit so the stat actually has decent value for us (I've suggested many times that CS crits let you use HoW like a rogues blindside proc, Im even ok with them removing HoW from use during AW and reworking SW if this were the case).
• SoB needs ~10-15% baseline haste added to it with the removal of reforge and lesser gem slots on gear to get to the haste levels where we aren't sitting on our hands for 30% of the fight waiting for things to come off cd to hit them.
• Seal twisting talent needs to have 10% haste not 10% attack speed to be more viable(makes sense with how they are changing attack speed and spell haste buffs to be flat out haste buffs)

[Smitus]

DP has always been the most fun part of ret pals, in my opinion. When they gutted it for a talent in MoP that was the crappiest of the three, I knew retpal wouldn't be for me anymore.

I just prefer my performance in raiding environments to be based on my own abilities rather than random rolls

Also seph would become crazily over reliant on trinket procs/short term buffs if it was a % modifier on our current stats rather than a flat increase. The only way it's viable is if it's a flat increase.

[Zabannith]

The only issue I see with seraphim being additive at the moment is in late tiers that's going to be some crazy burst . even though its only 10 seconds.. it you have HA specced and FV that's some stupid burst , or even SW with hammer time that's stupid burst (and they have said they want to get rid of as much burst as they can especially on the pull), also think of the pvp implications , we will be able to blow somebody up within those 10 seconds pretty easily (fv to bypass armour +30% crit+30% mastery +wings etc etc ) , and its because of the pvp ramifications that I honestly think they will make the skill multiplicative and not additive.

[tonicsargeras]

I just prefer my performance in raiding environments to be based on my own abilities rather than random rolls

Quit stacking crit then :<

[Fredzilla]

The only issue I see with seraphim being additive at the moment is in late tiers that's going to be some crazy burst . even though its only 10 seconds.. it you have HA specced and FV that's some stupid burst , or even SW with hammer time that's stupid burst (and they have said they want to get rid of as much burst as they can especially on the pull), also think of the pvp implications , we will be able to blow somebody up within those 10 seconds pretty easily (fv to bypass armour +30% crit+30% mastery +wings etc etc ) , and its because of the pvp ramifications that I honestly think they will make the skill multiplicative and not additive.

It'd be pretty difficult to have both seraphim and FV =P

[Smitus]

The only issue I see with seraphim being additive at the moment is in late tiers that's going to be some crazy burst . even though its only 10 seconds.. it you have HA specced and FV that's some stupid burst , or even SW with hammer time that's stupid burst (and they have said they want to get rid of as much burst as they can especially on the pull), also think of the pvp implications , we will be able to blow somebody up within those 10 seconds pretty easily (fv to bypass armour +30% crit+30% mastery +wings etc etc ) , and its because of the pvp ramifications that I honestly think they will make the skill multiplicative and not additive.

You have to take in mind seph is 10 seconds long (minus the duration of the global it takes to cast it: assuming it's on the GCD) AND it leaves you at 0hp. Also it's impossible to have FV and seph. If you were seph + HA, you would basically be sacrificing A LOT of sustained single target for 9 seconds of strongest possible burst. While this might become more the norm in pvp due to how burst works, it would probably only be viable for niche fights where the entire fight's difficulty is based on 1 or a few situations where crazy high burst is needed, and your dps outside of those times is less relevant.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Quit stacking crit then :<

Haste 4 life.

[Smitus]

Quit stacking crit then :<

I'm back to mastery!! It was only for a few weeks of messing with

[tonicsargeras]

In it's current iteration Seraphim leaves much to be desired. It's primary use will be cooldown snapshotting, which could be a fun mechanic but when you have to spend 5 HP for such a short duration spell it's not really exciting.
The worst part is how well it scales. Unless it's nerfed in every tier, eventually it WILL be the best talent, so eventually everybody WILL take it.

[anaxie]

If SW talented remains 30 seconds SW + FV could be powerful imo. FV gives you sustained and SW + HoW+FV spam gives u mega damage supa burst time.

This would HEAVILY favor a Haste/ Mastery/ Multistrike build for the class of course. Which I'm totally for because those are interesting stats for how we function.

Readiness isn't it's like sure u can use wings but the other ratings are what actually buff up your damage. If you have no buffer you have no umph.

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crits not entirely useless. As a rating though readiness leaves MUCH to be desired and again should contribute equal or more towards SoB along with haste. This would help ret avoiding terrible itemizated tiers that guts us completely. Infact if we could get those 2 stats working towards the same end in SoB I would think we could get away just having 10% baseline haste to replace the lost critical strike. instead of the 15%. Which would give us 15% within a raid.

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but right now? Haste is just a better version of readiness that does essentially the same thing. Who gives a fuck about readiness when your HoW CD is still 3-3.5 seconds during SW and you have a 1.3 sec GCD? PFFFFT

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

• Art of War needs a major overhaul.
• Exo has to be meaningful to hit.(ties into art of war and scaling)
• I would really like to see a second proc based around crit so the stat actually has decent value for us (I've suggested many times that CS crits let you use HoW like a rogues blindside proc, Im even ok with them removing HoW from use during AW and reworking SW if this were the case).
• SoB needs ~10-15% baseline haste added to it with the removal of reforge and lesser gem slots on gear to get to the haste levels where we aren't sitting on our hands for 30% of the fight waiting for things to come off cd to hit them.
• Seal twisting talent needs to have 10% haste not 10% attack speed to be more viable(makes sense with how they are changing attack speed and spell haste buffs to be flat out haste buffs)

• Change our lvl 90 talents (for ret). ES has absolutely no flavor with snapshots removed, Light's Hammer is (still) clunky and annoying to use because mobs MOVE, Holy Prism wasn't strong enough for damage (or healing) for us in MoP but the way it works is fine.
• I really want consecration back!
• Final Verdict could just replace TV as baseline, the talent is without any imagination what so ever.
• T16 (SoO) 4set bonus should be thrown into our spec, it works wonders with our AoE damage (coupled with DP) and also gives us another ability to use which makes the empty GCD issue with low haste less of a problem.

[anaxie]

The largest benefit SW has provided the entire expansion especially now with its short CD is the length at which the buff is active you have an extremely high chance to fit your procs within the burst window. post WoD unless numbers change significantly on the alpha shows HoW scaling is going to be very potent and so will FV which should get the Wings 30 second duration boost to it's potent damage.

[Smitus]

The largest benefit SW has provided the entire expansion especially now with its short CD is the length at which the buff is active you have an extremely high chance to fit your procs within the burst window. post WoD unless numbers change significantly on the alpha shows HoW scaling is going to be very potent and so will FV which should get the Wings 30 second duration boost to it's potent damage.

Also have to tank in mind in SoO both our BiS trinkets were ICD. So it'll depend on which trinkets we're given to work with

[anaxie]

Another bit to remember is there is no way for Exorcism to keep up in damage. They HAVE to get it off spell mechanics and make it like every other attack so it procs seals especially now with truth doing a larger amount of weapon damage and SoL scaling. If everything scales 30% faster then Exorcism it will be bland very soon. I think it should scale the BEST out of all our attacks.

[Maegor]

Readiness will be the bastard stat. Meaning, in it's current iteration, the only real benefit is getting an extra aw in a fight. So if X amount of readiness gets you an extra aw in a 6 min fight (or whatever standard fight length ends up being), than any amount over X is wasted.

There really isn't much of a fix to this either. If you put the 1m cd's on readiness, then it will correlate equally, meaning any amount over X is a waste. Really readiness is the new hit/exp