[WoD] Holy Paladin Megathread

[nightfalls]

DP @ 7% is by far the best of the "active mana-regen" skills. if ur still not sold tho i'd gladly trade DP for monks @ 3 chi for denounce having a 4 sec cast to restore 2% mana.

You got any data/numbers to support that? Compare with each healer and take EVERYTHING into account. Because it's really not that simple. For instance, Priests spend more mana doing the same HPS than Paladins (at least on my spreadsheet), but they also contribute DPS while Paladin contributes nothing. So it's still more equivalent than anything.

And your "trade" is worth fuck all because you can't just compare two/three abilities in a vacuum.

And I'm not just asking for a comparison to Monks, but compare to all healers including their entire toolkit.

Anyway, we need to begin talking about mechanics again. Right now, I'm not even sure what Blizzard's goal regarding mana tuning is. What is the intended baseline of mana-positive/free healing? Because I can definitely believe they want it to be more than it is now. And don't forget, with active mana regen comes a skill floor, meaning that an unskilled player (i.e. doesn't know anything) still can't be 100% always oom or else LFD/LFR will have field days worse than Cata.

[Deleted]

You have no point. What is there to disprove as a result? You are simply wrong, and it's ok to be wrong as long as you know you are even if you don't want to accept it.

Yes, see you in beta when all of you will use DP and monk/druid will never bother having CJL/innervate in the bar.

[Lucyrotten]

Yes, see you in beta when all of you will use DP and monk/druid will never bother having CJL/innervate in the bar.

I hate myself for even entertaining you, but after an entire expansion of having the worst regen of any class BY FAR you're really going to go there?

[Jackielope]

Bouche did some math on the subject of active mana regen: http://holybouch.com/2014/04/24/acti...urtis-edition/

One thing to keep in mind is every healer has a way to regain mana in between heals but while still healing a bit thanks to HoTs. The issue we have is we don't actually do damage to get ours unless we use HS offensively, and using HS on its own to "regain" mana through DP doesn't really do much compared to using HL on a beacon target and getting HoPo that way. Are we just doomed to never have decent options for doing some kind of okay damage while healing?

But of course the numbers and even mechanics are subject to change, so we'll see how things play out.

[Deleted]

I hate myself for even entertaining you, but after an entire expansion of having the worst regen of any class BY FAR you're really going to go there?

That logic worked so well when Disc was shit-tier the first week of MoP, right?

Infracted. Please keep it on-topic. ~Fhi

[nightfalls]

One thing to keep in mind is every healer has a way to regain mana in between heals but while still healing a bit thanks to HoTs. The issue we have is we don't actually do damage to get ours unless we use HS offensively, and using HS on its own to "regain" mana through DP doesn't really do much compared to using HL on a beacon target and getting HoPo that way. Are we just doomed to never have decent options for doing some kind of okay damage while healing?

Here is an issue. Other healers give up healing because they channel/cast and don't heal. We give up healing because we use Holy Power on mana instead of healing. Both options sacrifice potentially a lot of healing. But we also do no DPS, while other healers just, in a rotation, do passive DPS even if it's "not significant" (what is that supposed to mean, anyway?) Druids have Wrath cost 0 mana during Innervate, also. So they actually DO have passive DPS while we do not.

---

I have a newer spreadsheet, and right now it is true that we will have several mana-positive healing rotations that are mostly based on single-target healing (read: healing the tank, and nothing more). But, we have to look at a few things:

• This may be intentional. We don't know what damage will look like, and as soon as group healing is added into the equation our mana efficiency plummets, a lot. As soon as we're forced to use finishers on healing instead of mana, our efficiency plummets a lot.
  
• Remember that our mana regeneration is now "active" which means that when doing low-end content (read: dungeons, for instance), if you go oom healing the tank because you are bad and it's 100% you're fault, it still doesn't make for a fun LFD/LFR group. So perhaps low-end healing is intended to be extremely forgiving so when you actually do use your active regen, it's trivial.
  
• Given both factors above, it's likely that it's not "overpowered," but rather the standard that all healers are balanced around - being able to heal basically without spending mana at all. So the tuning again is not the big concern here. If we regen too much, Blizzard will know that. It's pretty obvious we can heal at a very basic level for free now.
  
• What is an issue is mechanics. Having no ability to DPS during downtime to store up mana for future healing puts us far being other healers, mechanically, already.

P.S. Concern #2, unrelated to mana. Our 45 talent does not look like it's even worth touching at this point. Might as well blank it.

[Deleted]

DP @ 7% is by far the best of the "active mana-regen" skills.

if ur still not sold tho i'd gladly trade DP for monks @ 3 chi for denounce having a 4 sec cast to restore 2% mana.

lets go trade boys

Sure, but then we also trade Holy Shock for Renewing Mists. I mean they do the same thing right, just generating 1 chi/1 holy power which are the same for you.

The best of the mana regeneration skill is the shaman one. I would say the Holy Priest one is also really good, but unless Disc actually gets destroyed somewhere along the line, I just can't see Holy Priests in Mythic.

P.S. Concern #2, unrelated to mana. Our 45 talent does not look like it's even worth touching at this point. Might as well blank it.

Disagree. SS was always worth it so far. EF made a bit of a comeback lately and doesn't look so dead anymore. SH is completely useless for Holy Paladins in the current version yeah.
I mean, you can't remove the extra hp and SH affecting radiance all the while returning with nothing extra and expect the talent to work out.

do we have tower of radiance in alpha and does it work with holy light?

Yes, but Holy Light without the beacon transfer is insanely poor value. If you compare the healing spells of all classes in terms of spellpower/perks/total bonuses you'll see how important the beacon dependency is.

[nightfalls]

The best of the mana regeneration skill is the shaman one. I would say the Holy Priest one is also really good, but unless Disc actually gets destroyed somewhere along the line, I just can't see Holy Priests in Mythic.

They might be a bit under the radar, but from what I can see Shaman on the whole look very solid right now. Priests do too, although I'd be disappointed Divine Star doesn't DPS. At least that would make CM's a lot more equal though.

[Floopa]

The best of the mana regeneration skill is the shaman one. I would say the Holy Priest one is also really good, but unless Disc actually gets destroyed somewhere along the line, I just can't see Holy Priests in Mythic.

not sure about your internal info ofc but arent holy priests supposed to be ridiculous atm? renew heals more than rejuv does and costs less mana, and actively aids CoH which heals for god-like amounts of healing. holy priests seem like LITERALLY JESUS atm.

i dont think disc is gonna get more nerfed than what blizz has stated tbh: atonement nerfed, shields nerfed, penance no longer an atonement style heal.

[Deleted]

not sure about your internal info ofc but arent holy priests supposed to be ridiculous atm? renew heals more than rejuv does and costs less mana, and actively aids CoH which heals for god-like amounts of healing. holy priests seem like LITERALLY JESUS atm.

Yeah renew with the current spellpower % before balancing is ridiculous, but at this point its much better to be mechanically solid(like for example shamans and druids) then to have 1/2 op mechanics that upon fixing leave u out of raiding for another expansion.

Disc priest is solid and unique. In a world with 4 healers, there's healers that bring was a holy priest brings or better. There's nothing remotely close to what disc brings.

[Floopa]

Yeah renew with the current spellpower % before balancing is ridiculous, but at this point its much better to be mechanically solid(like for example shamans and druids) then to have 1/2 op mechanics that upon fixing leave u out of raiding for another expansion.

Disc priest is solid and unique. In a world with 4 healers, there's healers that bring was a holy priest brings or better. There's nothing remotely close to what disc brings.

so your 4 healers are disc, pally, shaman, druid (presumably) because we both agree MW and Holy Priests are among the weaker healing classes (ATM)

i guess the main worry for holy palas is a world where tank healing is no longer needed/efficient (totally possible due to active mitigation perhaps?) because it renders the rest of their toolkit complete trash compared to what every other healer brings (inc. the absorbs).

[mcbubble]

Yeah renew with the current spellpower % before balancing is ridiculous, but at this point its much better to be mechanically solid(like for example shamans and druids) then to have 1/2 op mechanics that upon fixing leave u out of raiding for another expansion.

Disc priest is solid and unique. In a world with 4 healers, there's healers that bring was a holy priest brings or better. There's nothing remotely close to what disc brings.

Wait a sec, I haven't been following all of the Alpha notes/updates, but is Aladya saying that disc is superior?
Dear God - please no repeat of MOP...

[nightfalls]

Wait a sec, I haven't been following all of the Alpha notes/updates, but is Aladya saying that disc is superior?

When was the last time Holy was better than Disc? (legitimate question, since I haven't followed healer balance before MOP). Also, to Floopa, all of MOP was a world where tank healing wasn't really needed, especially after Throne of Thunder. Tanks were responsible for almost all of their survival.

Point being all healers need to be able to group heal. I think the days of "dedicated tank healer only can't really group heal" are 100% gone and any attempt to bring that back will just make a shitty class.

[Floopa]

When was the last time Holy was better than Disc? (legitimate question, since I haven't followed healer balance before MOP). Also, to Floopa, all of MOP was a world where tank healing wasn't really needed, especially after Throne of Thunder. Tanks were responsible for almost all of their survival.

Point being all healers need to be able to group heal. I think the days of "dedicated tank healer only can't really group heal" are 100% gone and any attempt to bring that back will just make a shitty class.

that's in a different healing model tho.

u dont need tank healing because you have 15 million random aoe heals flying off in 15 million different directions and both disc/paladins can absorb ridiculous amounts of dmg (yes pallies absorb a crap ton of dmg too)

with the aoe healing system changed to "heals random" rather than "heals smartly" you will need to take greater care in tank healing... as long as active mitigation/tank scaling doesnt render it completely moot (looking at prot palas who are basically self sufficient in hc raids due to EF)

i agree with you. all healers should be able to do all roles though. even at the cost of "omg uniqueness"

[Lovestar]

This isn't supposed to be a pissing contest, it is a thread for discussing what Paladin healers need and want. I'm fucking tired of monks coming in here trying to whine about their class.

Hopefully not mad at me. I just wanted to understand what other healers go through on AoE / spread in WoD and whether Pally's situation there had improved or worsened.

On a similar note: does Divine Light still generate HP on Beacons in WoD, or is it strictly Flash now?

Haha nevermind, read thread then post:

Yes, but Holy Light without the beacon transfer is insanely poor value. If you compare the healing spells of all classes in terms of spellpower/perks/total bonuses you'll see how important the beacon dependency is.

[nightfalls]

i agree with you. all healers should be able to do all roles though. even at the cost of "omg uniqueness"

I don't think they should use the same toolkit, for instance I don't think every healer should have HoTs, absorbs, direct heals, the exact same type of AoE, etc. But that's different than saying all healers should be able to tank heal, group heal, and any hybrid of the two equally well regardless of how he does it.

I argued against Paladins getting a "HoT seal," "AoE healing seal," etc. partly because I don't think Paladins are Holy Priests, i.e. we shouldn't have as diverse a toolkit, just a usable one.

- - - Updated - - -

Hopefully not mad at me. I just wanted to understand what other healers go through on AoE / spread in WoD and whether Pally's situation there had improved or worsened.

There is a difference between using other classes as a reference or as a means of saying "we should have similar" versus a pissing contest, i.e. "No your class is better/more OP than mine you need nerfs we need buffs."

[Lovestar]

Question about Tower of Radiance.

Does this put HPallies in a no-win situation? Healing your Beacon target seems like it's inherently a wasteful activity (because you're balanced around healing both a prime target and the Beacon).

Not healing your Beacon target seems like it wastes ToR's perk.

Is ToR strictly a consolation prize for 'accidentally' (ie, not time to swap Beacon) healing your Beacon, and you're 'intended' to generate HP strictly through Holy Shock most of the time?

Or is it designed to break-even, ie, Heal Beacon + 1 HP ~= Heal Someone + 50% Beacon, so you just do w/e is needed?

(atm I'm fussing about Surging Mist as Monk's Chi generator in WoD and trying to compare similar mechanics for reference)

[nightfalls]

Or is it designed to break-even, ie, Heal Beacon + 1 HP ~= Heal Someone + 50% Beacon, so you just do w/e is needed?

It will honestly depend on the way the tier works. Right now, most people prefer healing the Beacon because 1 HP is generally preferable to the 50% Beacon transfer (which does not trigger mastery) but that can easily change in Warlords.

Also don't forget, there is a Perk where you get 10% increased healing on your Beacon of Light target. It's not 50%, but it means the gain is smaller than one would imagine.

[Deleted]

Some questions came to my mind tonight: Is it possible to have two beacons on one target (with the L100 talent)? If yes, will it grant 2 HP when healed directly? I thought about a low dmg phase where we could use both beacons on one tank healing him directly with HL+HS and use the maybe 3 HP for DP. Basicly it would be cheaper (11,5% + 9,5% basemana) than 3x HS (9,5% + 9,5% + 9,5%). I mean using only HS in a low dmg phase seems kinda stupid and is rather slow (12sec cd between first and last HS).

Or am i making some big mistakes??

[Deleted]

Some questions came to my mind tonight: Is it possible to have two beacons on one target (with the L100 talent)? If yes, will it grant 2 HP when healed directly? I thought about a low dmg phase where we could use both beacons on one tank healing him directly with HL+HS and use the maybe 3 HP for DP. Basicly it would be cheaper (11,5% + 9,5% basemana) than 3x HS (9,5% + 9,5% + 9,5%). I mean using only HS in a low dmg phase seems kinda stupid and is rather slow (12sec cd between first and last HS).

Or am i making some big mistakes??

Even if it would be possible(its not atm,Faith has no ToR interaction), something like this would never go live. You can't even Beacon of Light someone, then heal him while using Beacon of Faith to heal someone else. More or less, Beacon of Faith copies the exact healing done by Beacon of Light.

so your 4 healers are disc, pally, shaman, druid (presumably) because we both agree MW and Holy Priests are among the weaker healing classes (ATM)

I guess the main worry for holy palas is a world where tank healing is no longer needed/efficient (totally possible due to active mitigation perhaps?) because it renders the rest of their toolkit complete trash compared to what every other healer brings (inc. the absorbs).

More or less yeah.Its all an issue of numbers,even if all healer classes were perfectly balanced there are only 4 healer spots in a raid. Paladins are dependent on tank healing being a requirement because of aoe is awful compared to the other healing classes mechanic wise(even if numbers were better, Holy Radiance is still 10 yards range, LoD 30 yrds range and 3 HP cost). Shamans and Discs get a free ticket and the last spot goes to Druids atm because they are mechanically better then Monks.

Don't get me wrong, Beta changes stuff, one might end up using 2x Holy Priests in Blackrock Foundry Mythic, but that's just a side effect of overtuned numbers.