Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Deleted]

I like no flying in IOT and TI. Fun to quest and PVP. Takes more time to get things done? Good.

No flying seems to me to piss off gold/mats/daylies farmers mostly. I dont care about mats and gold because of my garrison will provide. Hence i will like no flying in all of WOD if they make it so.

Maybe it will suck not being able to just my flying mounts in WOD. But i wll be able in the rest of Warcraft Universe so.. no biggie.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

If you don't understand, that's your problem. People enjoy different aspects of that game than you. We enjoy flying for the many reasons listed over and over again. You don't need to understand how we enjoy the game.

Truly amazing, did you even read my reply? Wrong again, you quoted my posts and rephrased what I said incorrectly. You are harassing me with these nonsense replies.

Just consuming content faster isn't "huge reasons."

False, I am not harassing you, or rephrasing what you said.

- - - Updated - - -

It almost always works out to there being kill quests along with "swoop" quests. The 25 mantid, 4 kunchong, 3 war wagons, and 10 bricks are all part of a single "set" of dailies.

Flying doesn't need to be removed because it doesn't trivialize anything. What flying does do is make it easier to get to content that players want to do. The content that will be "trivialized" will be made that way by other means, either gear progression or other players running around the area. Oondasta was an example of this, challenging content that players simply zerged into oblivion. The Timeless Isle is another more relevant example, since that's what they're using as the basis for Draenor. A pile of players waiting at any given spot to zerg something as soon as it spawns or starts up.

And the people who want flying don't want to "skip so much of the game" as if running to content was a massive and huge part of the game. Getting to content shouldn't be irritating. They should spend more time working on the content instead of worrying about how we'll approach it. If I fly over the walls of a fortress to slaughter everything inside, it doesn't matter that I ignored the two mobs guarding the gate. I'd probably kill them anyway if they had a chance to drop anything useful.

yeah, You kill most of the 25 with the war wagons. You can avoid many after that when you help guards and get bricks. Go do them on a ground mount, then a flying mount and try to see how many you skip.

I just think you are tired of this game if using a ground mount is "irritating travel."

If everything dropped something "useful," then it would lower the value of those things dropped. Flying is an overall small part of the game, most of the things you do literally can't involve flying.

- - - Updated - - -

I like no flying in IOT and TI. Fun to quest and PVP. Takes more time to get things done? Good.

No flying seems to me to piss off gold/mats/daylies farmers mostly. I dont care about mats and gold because of my garrison will provide. Hence i will like no flying in all of WOD if they make it so.

Maybe it will suck not being able to just my flying mounts in WOD. But i wll be able in the rest of Warcraft Universe so.. no biggie.

I agree with this. People aren;t even giving it a chance. If you really like playing, lack of flying on Draenor won't be a huge deal. And if by 6.1 you still hate it, just tell Blizzard.

No one here is entitled to flying. Not because you like it, not because you had it for X years or anything else. There is no natural, philosophical or otherwise law or rule stating that flying on Draenor is necessary.

[Lumineus]

yeah, You kill most of the 25 with the war wagons.

Exactly, so why should you have to kill double that to finish up?

Moreover, why is it that suddenly this is a big problem? Blizzard even gave out an achievement for NOT killing extra Mantid during the Shado-Pan "assassin" dailies.

[Vespene]

I hold firmly to the belief that the reason players embraced flying was because in old WoW the designers didn't really have convenience in mind, when designing ground travel around areas. Like, I don't really mind foot traveling around Elwynn or Duskwood because the objectives were near quest givers, and the road was relatively mob-free. Zones like Plaguelands or the Barrens were a nightmare of aggro plaguehounds and long foot runs to and from Crossroads. I think Warlords will be more like Duskwood and less like the Barrens.

Players that are pro-flying should really give no-flying a shot. The majority of the players that are complaining weren't even around during Vanilla. Turning pages on a physical book can be more fun than reading it on a tablet.

[Lumineus]

Are we talking the new Duskwood? Because I HATED the old Duskwood, which is nothing like you described. All the quests were in town and you had to run from the east all the way to the west side of the zone to kill mobs at the graveyard, farm, and ogre mound, and run all the way back to turn them in. Repeatedly. And ON FOOT, since mounts were lv40 back then.

[Rankin]

yeah, You kill most of the 25 with the war wagons. You can avoid many after that when you help guards and get bricks. Go do them on a ground mount, then a flying mount and try to see how many you skip.

I just think you are tired of this game if using a ground mount is "irritating travel."

If everything dropped something "useful," then it would lower the value of those things dropped. Flying is an overall small part of the game, most of the things you do literally can't involve flying.

The difference between doing them solely through ground combat and with flying added in is not as huge as you think it is.

I also did not say that using a ground mount is "irritating travel". I said getting to content shouldn't be irritating. Taking longer to get somewhere because reasons is the problem. Not because it's being done on a ground mount. I'd still be irritated if we had never had flight and they decided to suddenly reduce ground mount speed to "increase immersion".

Sure, if everything had a 100% chance of dropping useful things then you would be right about it lowering the value of those things. And if your argument is that flying is such a small part of the game, then why are you so determined to get rid of it?

[Sweetpeaz]

Some of those made no sense. Bosses dropping Badges, what? And why would Knights of the Ebon Blade care if you killed some trolls in Gundrak, because you were wearing their banner?

The rest of that stuff I don't see as any different from what we have now.

The discussion we were having was involved with the grind, and I tried to explain to you that the best grind is one that you don't know is a grind. Then I explained how the grind has evolved.

In Vanilla what was the grind? Running until 40? Farming Timbermaw rep one at a time for an enchanting recipe?

In TBC the raids were all laid out before you. You could run all of them in one day if you wanted to. From early one you could run Mags, Gruuls, Kara, SSC, and TK in the same day if you were able. Because you were locked out of progression by weekly caps. I ran BM 8 times one sunday morning to get a trinket when I joined a new guild. The gate was the content. Good times. Even towards the end, you had badge gear for those that could raid. I don't recall a cap, I seem to remember having several hundred of them with nothing to buy.

In WotLk you could chain run heroics all day. Hit 80 and then have them outfitted in tier gear by the end of the weekend. What was the gate back then? What was an in-game mechanic that prevented you from progressing?

Today the game is littered with in game mechanics to prevent you from doing too much too soon. You have weekly Valor caps, weekly justice caps, weekly conquest caps. Raids are rolled out after the first tier, and then you are handheld the entire way. Don't go too fast, we have you on the rails for a reason.

I see a large difference in how people are treated by the developers now compared to then. It went from a sandbox to a guided tour. Surely I can't be the only one to have noticed this.

[Celista]

Players that are pro-flying should really give no-flying a shot.

My alts are no-flying from 1-60 and after leveling one recently I can honestly say that my views on flying remain the same; and no, older zones without flying are not more immersive or epic to level through.

[Vespene]

My alts are no-flying from 1-60 and after leveling one recently I can honestly say that my views on flying remain the same; and no, older zones without flying are not more immersive or epic to level through.

You're not flying during the leveling of any of the previous xpans anyway, with the exception of Cata which was probably the worst leveling xpan ever. Goes to say.

[Celista]

You're not flying during the leveling of any of the previous xpans anyway, with the exception of Cata which was probably the worst leveling xpan ever. Goes to say.

Don't get me wrong, as I said earlier no flight by itself isn't exactly a deal breaker. That being said, I loved being able to fly during Cata leveling, lol. Although it wasn't my favorite xpac to level through, Wrath probably wins out as I enjoyed the aesthetics/lore in most of the Northrend zones.

[Nayaga]

I like no flying in IOT and TI. Fun to quest and PVP. Takes more time to get things done? Good.

No flying seems to me to piss off gold/mats/daylies farmers mostly. I dont care about mats and gold because of my garrison will provide. Hence i will like no flying in all of WOD if they make it so.

Maybe it will suck not being able to just my flying mounts in WOD. But i wll be able in the rest of Warcraft Universe so.. no biggie.

Others, like me, did not like IoT or IT and do not welcome more of it. Especially if everything is based on TI, YUCK!

I'm on a PvE server and don't PvP while questing.

I don't mind playing to take longer if the mechanism put in the game to slow us down is fun. Slogging through level 91 mobs at level 100 is not fun for me, there is no risk, challenge and little reward. It's a boring waste of my time.

I'm not a gold farmer and removing flight pisses me off.

You might just retreat to your garrisons for "farming", but the removal of flight is suppose to make the world "alive" again with more people on the ground. How will sitting in your garrison do that?

[quras]

I don't see why it's a bad thing if they "leech" ideas from forums for example. Good ideas are good ideas, no matter where they came from.

Agreed to an extent. I get paid for ideas in real life, no way I'm giving out great ideas for free just because it's a game. blizzard has a creative team, it's just too bad there not all that creative.

I've seen much better ideas from gamers than I have from blizzard in these threads when we talk about flying vs no flying and in how to keep it in game.

Not really. It's not like rogue abilities or mage invisibility or druid stealth are as game-changing as flying is when it comes to completing open-world content. What else would need to be changed?

Skipping content is skipping content. Doesn't matter how you do it. Saying you can skip content this way but as long as you don't do it by flying is about as warped as one can get. Since flying has been in every expansion at max level, I've completed all content just as everyone else has. For quests I've killed the same amount of mobs and killed teh same bosses. Flying did change the required quest objective only the path, I as a player" took to complete it. Just as if I was a mage or rogue or hunter or warrior or druid or whatever class I play. flying is much to ingrained for me to support just throwing it out because blizzard decided being creative was just to hard for them to do.

It should be a personal choice to an extent. Flying should not be included in that, no more so than teleportation or invulnerability or walking through walls.
As has already been discussed, using a ground mount is not a viable option when you are playing with other people. Right now flying is the standard and if you don't want to gimp yourself you have to fly.

All quest completion should be decided by the player if it is open world questing. Let the player decide how he wants to kill this or that. Thats why this is an mmo theme park game. A designer cannot force a player to complete a quest a certain way without it becoming to scripted and those types of events and ideas come from some of the worse designers ever. Build the world and let the players find the rides they want and complete quests on their own style, be it class skills, flying, teleports, blinks, feign deaths, invisibility, invulnerability etc...

There is no competition in open world beyond mat farming and especially come wod where mat farming can all be done on your farm. That is no longer a competition. Flying there changes nothing nor adds some special advantage.

I'm not convinced yet, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Then I take it you didn't play MoP. Cause that had the no flying content you're getting at max level come wod and that is content that does not warrant paying $50 for.

snip...

Players that are pro-flying should really give no-flying a shot. The majority of the players that are complaining weren't even around during Vanilla. Turning pages on a physical book can be more fun than reading it on a tablet.

I did give no flying a shot. I was in vanilla, ran on the ground till 40, got my slow mount, then slowing ran till 60. IT sucked. There is a reason flying was created for the very next expansion and stayed for every expansion ever created for wow. Ground travel sucked. Getting from "A" to B" doesn't need to be a hindrance.

I also tried no flying in MoP. TI-style content is OK in a limit capacity. An entire expansion of it was not something worth paying for. Make a zone of it, make half the land mass no flying but no all of it. At least keep options. Sadly blizzard is De-evolving the content instead of evolving it.

Nostalgia - The killer of most good gamers.

[Destruktion]

In Vanilla what was the grind? Running until 40? Farming Timbermaw rep one at a time for an enchanting recipe?

The Timbermaw don't trust outsiders so easily. It makes sense that it takes quite some effort to get access to one of their most treasured secrets.
That's a grind that makes sense. Running until 40 is debatable.

In TBC the raids were all laid out before you. You could run all of them in one day if you wanted to. From early one you could run Mags, Gruuls, Kara, SSC, and TK in the same day if you were able. Because you were locked out of progression by weekly caps. I ran BM 8 times one sunday morning to get a trinket when I joined a new guild. The gate was the content. Good times. Even towards the end, you had badge gear for those that could raid. I don't recall a cap, I seem to remember having several hundred of them with nothing to buy.

You can raid dungeons 8 times in a row today if you want to. Heroic dungeons were always on a daily lockout. That hasn't changed.
Pretty sure raids are still on a weekly lockout today.

In WotLk you could chain run heroics all day. Hit 80 and then have them outfitted in tier gear by the end of the weekend. What was the gate back then? What was an in-game mechanic that prevented you from progressing?

You still had daily heroic dungeon lockouts. I can't remember if they had the random heroic feature in LFG back then, but they certainly have it today.

Today the game is littered with in game mechanics to prevent you from doing too much too soon. You have weekly Valor caps, weekly justice caps, weekly conquest caps. Raids are rolled out after the first tier, and then you are handheld the entire way. Don't go too fast, we have you on the rails for a reason.

Yeah, I've always hated the idea of point caps. No arguments there.
Luckily they're being all but phased-out come WoD.
I don't understand the "hand-holding" in raids, could you elaborate?

I see a large difference in how people are treated by the developers now compared to then. It went from a sandbox to a guided tour. Surely I can't be the only one to have noticed this.

I agree, and I don't like it one bit.

[Sweetpeaz]

You can raid dungeons 8 times in a row today if you want to. Heroic dungeons were always on a daily lockout. That hasn't changed.
Pretty sure raids are still on a weekly lockout today.

The difference is that there aren't that many raids at once. There may be at the end of an expansion, but the rest of it is rolled out. Back in TBC at launch you had 5 different raids and Kara, SSC and TK were huge raids. Then you add in BT, Sunwell, and Hyjal and you have seriously large numbers of bosses to beat, and the entire raids were rolled out all at once.

Today content is so much less grand scope. They release a raid with 4 bosses, call it Terrace of Endless Springs and call it good. I just think that's sad.

As for my hand holding comment. It started back in TotC. Where they would release a boss and then wait a week or two until another. I don't know if it's because it isn't done being developed, or they don't want people consuming it too quickly, but either way it's bad.

They did have heroic lock outs but there were more dungeons, and those dungeons took longer to run.

[Florena]

The difference is that there aren't that many raids at once. There may be at the end of an expansion, but the rest of it is rolled out. Back in TBC at launch you had 5 different raids and Kara, SSC and TK were huge raids. Then you add in BT, Sunwell, and Hyjal and you have seriously large numbers of bosses to beat, and the entire raids were rolled out all at once.

Today content is so much less grand scope. They release a raid with 4 bosses, call it Terrace of Endless Springs and call it good. I just think that's sad.

As for my hand holding comment. It started back in TotC. Where they would release a boss and then wait a week or two until another. I don't know if it's because it isn't done being developed, or they don't want people consuming it too quickly, but either way it's bad.

They did have heroic lock outs but there were more dungeons, and those dungeons took longer to run.

Tempest Keep also had only four bosses. If you're going to be fair, MoP launched with 16 raid bosses between 3 raid zones and 2 world bosses. TBC also had Gruuls Lair and Mag's Lair that had 2 and 1 boss fights respectively, I don't think it's fair to point at Terrace and say 'oh there's only four bosses' when comparing to BC.

I will agree that BT, Kara and Ulduar were much better looking raids as far as layout size and aesthetics than anything put out since ICC, but that's a separate issue from the number of raid instances and bosses available.

[Nayaga]

I hold firmly to the belief that the reason players embraced flying was because in old WoW the designers didn't really have convenience in mind, when designing ground travel around areas. Like, I don't really mind foot traveling around Elwynn or Duskwood because the objectives were near quest givers, and the road was relatively mob-free. Zones like Plaguelands or the Barrens were a nightmare of aggro plaguehounds and long foot runs to and from Crossroads. I think Warlords will be more like Duskwood and less like the Barrens.

Players that are pro-flying should really give no-flying a shot. The majority of the players that are complaining weren't even around during Vanilla. Turning pages on a physical book can be more fun than reading it on a tablet.

I started in Vanilla and I'm pro-fly. I've already tried no-fly at max level many times, I don't like it and I don't need to give it another shot to know this.

[urasim]

I hold firmly to the belief that the reason players embraced flying was because in old WoW the designers didn't really have convenience in mind

No one is asking for flight while leveling. Your whole post is wasted space.

Players that are pro-flying should really give no-flying a shot. The majority of the players that are complaining weren't even around during Vanilla. Turning pages on a physical book can be more fun than reading it on a tablet.

This part is irritating...

Why don't you put your flying mount away and give running on the ground a chance? I'm not talking about timeless isle where you're forced to the ground. I'm asking you to do all the dailies from patch 5.0 while grounded. You don't need to fly around if you find it more fun to be grounded, so why are you flying everywhere that allows it? Who are you to tell me what is fun?

I doubt you would even consider it, so why should we consider not flying? We have done it enough in the past, so we know what it will be like in the future. Blizzard isn't adding anything revolutionary to the game to change it. I have played since the beta for classic, and it wasn't fun to travel in any zone without flight(there have been many).

[Destruktion]

The difference is that there aren't that many raids at once. There may be at the end of an expansion, but the rest of it is rolled out. Back in TBC at launch you had 5 different raids and Kara, SSC and TK were huge raids. Then you add in BT, Sunwell, and Hyjal and you have seriously large numbers of bosses to beat, and the entire raids were rolled out all at once.

Today content is so much less grand scope. They release a raid with 4 bosses, call it Terrace of Endless Springs and call it good. I just think that's sad.

TBC was in development for longer than most expansions I think. There were also a lot of reused art assets in both raids from their respective dungeon wings, plus the bosses were buggy and poorly tuned.

It's just not feasible any longer. Players demand quality, so Blizzard spends a lot of time on art assets, a lot of time on polish, and a lot of time on tuning and testing. There isn't enough time to develop two tiers of raids for an expansion launch like that.

As for my hand holding comment. It started back in TotC. Where they would release a boss and then wait a week or two until another. I don't know if it's because it isn't done being developed, or they don't want people consuming it too quickly, but either way it's bad.

They did have heroic lock outs but there were more dungeons, and those dungeons took longer to run.

I'm not raiding currently so I could be wrong but I thought boss gating was done away with.
As for dungeon numbers, same as above. Long development time, reused art assets, reused models, etc.

[urasim]

TBC was in development for longer than most expansions I think. There were also a lot of reused art assets in both raids from their respective dungeon wings, plus the bosses were buggy and poorly tuned.

It's just not feasible any longer. Players demand quality, so Blizzard spends a lot of time on art assets, a lot of time on polish, and a lot of time on tuning and testing. There isn't enough time to develop two tiers of raids for an expansion launch like that.



I'm not raiding currently so I could be wrong but I thought boss gating was done away with.
As for dungeon numbers, same as above. Long development time, reused art assets, reused models, etc.

There is a lot of reused art assets for MoP, and there were buggy bosses in MoP. Players have been demanding that Blizzard make expansions faster more than they demand better quality.

All of your points are fail.

[Destruktion]

There is a lot of reused art assets for MoP,

The dungeon and raid art has been pretty unique as of late.

and there were buggy bosses in MoP.

To the extent that SSC and TK were fucked up?

Players have been demanding that Blizzard make expansions faster more than they demand better quality.

I would prefer faster expansions to better quality myself, but can you demonstrate that this general statement is true?