[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Al Gorefiend]

I hope they introduce elements of Into the Spider-verse in the MCU. With the latest far from home trailer it sure seems that way.

[rogueMatthias]

In the series, Nico has had feelings towards Karolina that she's been confliced about, but hasn't ever seemed interested in other girls, and has been more interested in guys for the most part. And no, Bendis is not involved with the comics. The original run was by Brian K Vaughn and is well worth reading. Current run is enjoyable as well, but definitely not on the level of the original.

In the comics I always got the feeling that Nico just liked the attention and she liked that somebody like Karolina liked her, rather than she was particularly into girls. But I don't think the writers ever felt the need to specifically label her; you could be more nuanced then.

TBH it's series like that and seeing the earlier images of Young Avengers and other gay marvel heroes that just piss me off more to Marvels dumb "diversity" push and them doing annoucements like this. They've always had a whole variety of deep and interesting characters of different sexualities who've been really popular. People loved Billy and Teddy because they were great - they didnt' need news articles and fanfare about their sexualities. Marvel don't need to just lower themselves to virtue signalling like this. If you have a gay character, have a gay. character. Don't be like "HEY EVERYONE, WE HAVE A GAY CHARACTER!! LOOK, A GAY CHARACTER! #WE'REPROGRESSIVE"

Though now that it's a guessing game my bets are either Maria Hill or Beck. I don't think it would change anything about his character to adapt him as a gay man.

As a wild card, maybe it's Michelle/MJ just to mess with everyone entirely.

Wait, Vaughn wrote it? Shit, that's all you had to say! Love that guy... brb, picking up the TPB.

Yeah the first runaways books that Vaughn wrote were really great. Go find them if you can.

I hope they introduce elements of Into the Spider-verse in the MCU. With the latest far from home trailer it sure seems that way.

It sounds like you've been believing Mysterio. Nobody should ever be believing Mysterio.

[Stormcall]

In the comics I always got the feeling that Nico just liked the attention and she liked that somebody like Karolina liked her, rather than she was particularly into girls.

Yeah but since then she's openly expressed interest back in Karolina, to the point that she herself doesn't know what to make of it. She's clearly into Karolina, and not just happy for the attention.

[Trassk]

No surprise.

The part i love, how a marvel executive a year ago announced this forced diversity and sjw politics in marvel where hurting its sales, some left wing media outlets screeched about this.. only for those comics they defended ending up being cancelled due to poor sales.

Its easy to screech your sjw politics online for free, but actually buying the products to support an industry you demanded have more diversity in it? NOPE!

Better save that money for your mint soy latte.

[Jotaux]

I never read squirrel girl but I had thought the comic was doing well. So did they give her Down’s syndrome for her own comic? Because of what I’ve seen in the main comics she just seemed quirky.

[PACOX]

Ugh, I hate when videos complain about identity politics but then use identity politics. Hating on something because it tries to be diverse is just as bad as something trying to force diversity at the expensive of the product. Not all things that aren't a white dude is forced diversity. All non-standard characters that failed aren't because people 'are rallying against the SJW agenda' assuming its part of the 'SJW agenda' in the first place.

[RobertoCarlos]

No surprise.

The part i love, how a marvel executive a year ago announced this forced diversity and sjw politics in marvel where hurting its sales, some left wing media outlets screeched about this.. only for those comics they defended ending up being cancelled due to poor sales.

Its easy to screech your sjw politics online for free, but actually buying the products to support an industry you demanded have more diversity in it? NOPE!

Better save that money for your mint soy latte.

These people that spend all day fighting the good fight dont have money.

All they have is entitlement. The world owes them and they should get everything free/cheap because they are "special" and sent from the heavens to bless us with their presence.

[Biomega]

I've always hated the way that comic book media (and some other media as well) have tried to force diversity. And let me be clear: I've hated THE WAY they're trying to FORCE diversity. I'd love to have more diverse characters in ANY media. But the heavy-handed way it's often done is ridiculous and counterproductive.

You have a black superhero in some series? Well, then all of a sudden all the villains are black, too, and all the supporting characters (e.g. Luke Cage). Female superhero? Now all (or most) of the villains are also women, even to the point where they're, say, the sister of some iconic male villain (e.g. Supergirl). That's not how you create diversity. That's how you increase the divide. You think normalcy is achieved by wildly un-normal shifts? How does that even make sense?

How about you focus on one thing above ALL ELSE: good characters, and good stories. And then, when it comes to details, you can make diverse choices. Highlight differences if and when it makes sense - don't make the differences the centerpoint of your entire effort. You want to show the hero's family? Okay, then maybe they're married to someone of the same gender. Make it effortless and a matter of course. THAT'S how you normalize diversity. Not by putting up a flashing neon-lit sigh saying LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE OMG ALL THE GAYS ALL THE TRANS PEOPLE LOOK LOOK but by telling your stories, and just have people of all sorts be in them. Not by putting all the women into one frame during a giant epic battle scene (where, of course, they're fighting a FEMALE villain) but by putting them in all sorts of places, alongside all sorts of people.

And I get that sometimes stories warp themselves around certain characteristics, simply because that's what many people of those characteristics actually experience. Women are seen as women first and foremost in many societies. PoCs are seen as PoCs first and foremost in many societies. Their lives are defined by what they are more than other people are, and that's a big part of the problem. Erasing that by pretending it's not the case is as bad a solution as putting it in the foreground. It's what creates the conundrum for storytelling - a balancing act between celebrating their identity and accepting it as (largely tacit) normalcy.

There's examples of where it's done well. That first Overwatch comic that outed Tracer, for example, I found just totally fine. No highlights, no talking points, just a random scene you could see with any heterosexual couple only it happened to be homosexual. There, then over with, same as everything else. A fact of life, not a billboard screaming diversity at people. I'd love to see more REAL diversity like that. Everyday diversity. Accepted, normal, integrated diversity. That's the only real way forward, in my opinion. Everything else is agenda-driven talking points that only deepen divides. And yes, it's hard to get right. Change always is. But if you take the easy way out with lazy, ham-fisted writing then, well, you deserve everything that's coming.

[Trassk]

There's examples of where it's done well. That first Overwatch comic that outed Tracer, for example, I found just totally fine. No highlights, no talking points, just a random scene you could see with any heterosexual couple only it happened to be homosexual. There, then over with, same as everything else. A fact of life, not a billboard screaming diversity at people. I'd love to see more REAL diversity like that. Everyday diversity. Accepted, normal, integrated diversity. That's the only real way forward, in my opinion. Everything else is agenda-driven talking points that only deepen divides. And yes, it's hard to get right. Change always is. But if you take the easy way out with lazy, ham-fisted writing then, well, you deserve everything that's coming.

The funny thing is, marvel is the company that HAS managed to write stories of people overcoming adversity who are different from the norm, and it serving as examples to other people reading of being different, those were the X-Men, and where once a great allegory for people like gays/trans or minorities.
These days in the comics it doesn't have that same simple but effective message of familiarity, the one of 'wow, I'm treated as different just like mutants are, so I can relate to mutants!". No these days that isn't good enough a message, nowadays the diversity quota needs to be as all over the place as social media. Allegory doesn't work anymore, now if you don't have a trans-bi-mexican-progressive superhero, then 'Your not being inclusive enough!'.

But even if the writers conform and make their special snowflake trans-bi-mexican-progressive hero, the ones screeching for it on social media still won't buy it, they thing their jobs done and somehow that will force the image of a trans-bi-mexican-progressive hero on the masses, not realising the character was only made for them.

[Stormcall]

I never read squirrel girl but I had thought the comic was doing well.

It was for awhile, I guess these days it died off. Still, a 50 issue run with such terrible art is a pretty impressive feat, and hardly an indication of the "SJW bOoKs dO nOt SeLl!!!!!" narrative that video was preaching. America Chavez would have been a much better example, her book only lasted like 10 issues, with a Hispanic, lesbian, empowered female protagonist.

[Jotaux]

It was for awhile, I guess these days it died off. Still, a 50 issue run with such terrible art is a pretty impressive feat, and hardly an indication of the "SJW bOoKs dO nOt SeLl!!!!!" narrative that video was preaching. America Chavez would have been a much better example, her book only lasted like 10 issues, with a Hispanic, lesbian, empowered female protagonist.

I think a lot of those types of books have good initial runs until the diversity hype dies down. My favourite (or least favourite) example is Sam Wilson: Captain America. Every page existed just to let you know he was black. They should have just renamed the comic "Black Guy: Black Captain America". I did read the whole run and when Nick Spencer finally put his character back on track in Secret Empire (I swear the entire point of that event was to cement Sam Wilson as THE Captain America) they cancelled the book and turned him back to Falcon.

[Stormcall]

I think a lot of those types of books have good initial runs until the diversity hype dies down..

Squirrel Girl lasted 50 issues(58 technically, since like every other Marvel book at the time it started at a new issue 1 after Battleworld or w/e the big event was then). That takes more than a "good initial run" though, that's roughly a 5 year run! With some of the worst art on the planet, at that. A good initial run should mean America Chavez, the gay Ice-Man, Nighthawk, Mockingbird, etc woulda lasted more than 8-10 issues. With those books, clearly the initial run was not successful enough to justify continuing...whereas Squirrel Girl(which I personally don't read, so I don't even know how "SJW" focused it is. I'll give a lot of books a chance but that art is so atrocious it's not an option) did well enough to keep going for 5 years. That's what makes it such a weird target for that video. Becky Cloonan's Punisher run, which was violent as hell and not at all an SJW book, by comparison, lasted 18 issues. If someone wants to scream about SJW comics failing, there are better targets to scream about than Squirrel Girl.

[Jotaux]

Squirrel Girl lasted 50 issues(58 technically, since like every other Marvel book at the time it started at a new issue 1 after Battleworld or w/e the big event was then). That takes more than a "good initial run" though, that's roughly a 5 year run! With some of the worst art on the planet, at that. A good initial run should mean America Chavez, the gay Ice-Man, Nighthawk, Mockingbird, etc woulda lasted more than 8-10 issues. With those books, clearly the initial run was not successful enough to justify continuing...whereas Squirrel Girl(which I personally don't read, so I don't even know how "SJW" focused it is. I'll give a lot of books a chance but that art is so atrocious it's not an option) did well enough to keep going for 5 years. That's what makes it such a weird target for that video. Becky Cloonan's Punisher run, which was violent as hell and not at all an SJW book, by comparison, lasted 18 issues. If someone wants to scream about SJW comics failing, there are better targets to scream about than Squirrel Girl.

By initial run I mean 8-10 issues. From what the video has said it seems like Squirrel Girl was kept around just because. I haven't looked into the sales numbers myself and the video seems to be pushing an agenda so I don't know how accurate that is.

[Gallahadd]

No surprise. I've always seen Squirrel Girl as something of a joke character, so I stayed well clear. Recently, I read the two War of the Realms tie ins and HOLY SHIT... What an absolute loads of balls. Even if we excuse the obvious lore mistakes (I can forgive a non-thor writer for getting Thor's lore wrong), the actual quality of writing in the book was just AWFUL. Honestly don't know how it ran for like 2 freakin years.

[Jotaux]

No surprise. I've always seen Squirrel Girl as something of a joke character, so I stayed well clear. Recently, I read the two War of the Realms tie ins and HOLY SHIT... What an absolute loads of balls. Even if we excuse the obvious lore mistakes (I can forgive a non-thor writer for getting Thor's lore wrong), the actual quality of writing in the book was just AWFUL. Honestly don't know how it ran for like 2 freakin years.

I haven't read any of the War of the Realms comics how is it?

[Svifnymr]

Ugh, I hate when videos complain about identity politics but then use identity politics. Hating on something because it tries to be diverse is just as bad as something trying to force diversity at the expensive of the product. Not all things that aren't a white dude is forced diversity. All non-standard characters that failed aren't because people 'are rallying against the SJW agenda' assuming its part of the 'SJW agenda' in the first place.

My issue with it (I'm not going to bother watching the video) is that most common refrain to the forced diversity is "why not make a new character" or whatever. I can see complaints about race/gender swapping a long time character to an extent (I'm sure folks complained about Idris Elba as Heimdall, but I didn't care, I do think Valkries performance was lacking, but others loved that film, so meh), but SJW haters shouldn't be happy Squirrel girl is canceled, this is what they wanted!

For myself, the only thing I could say is that a lot of the audiences the diversity stuff is targeting, might not be a good target audience. I didn't read it, but I believe Squirrel Girl was intended for young girls, right? So maybe after 5 years, the 5 years olds are now 10 year olds and think comics are dumb. Maybe new readers aren't coming in to replace lost ones that age-out.

I don't know that the barrier to (insert race/sex/gender identity) children reading comics is not enough (insert race/sex/gender identity) characters to represent them or identify with. I think a lot of the "SJW Introductions" done on The View and similar were to bring in outside folks, but how many of those outside folks were ignoring comics because of not enough (insert race/sex/gender identity)?

- - - Updated - - -

By initial run I mean 8-10 issues. From what the video has said it seems like Squirrel Girl was kept around just because. I haven't looked into the sales numbers myself and the video seems to be pushing an agenda so I don't know how accurate that is.

It may have just been cheaper to make and so lower readership still met targets.

[Gallahadd]

I haven't read any of the War of the Realms comics how is it?

I'm a little biased, because I'm a HUGE Thor fan, and a HUGE Jason Aaron fan, but I'm fucking loving it. I can see why people who haven't been following Aaron's Thor run might not be enjoying it, but for someone who has been waiting for this arc for liike 6 years, I'm loving every second.

Except the Squirrel Girl and Fantastic Four sidebooks, they're both hilariously shit. But eh. They were always going to be.

[Stormcall]

By initial run I mean 8-10 issues.

But then Iceman, Ms. America, Mockingbird, etc should have been around longer, since their books were cancelled after an initial run of that length. If the initial run did well, they would have kept those series going...at least until they started not doing well. That's how they do things-they start a series, they give it an 8-10 issue run, then depending on sales, they decide rather to end it or keep it going. They ended those, they kept Squirrel Girl going, for quite awhile. They don't keep series going for 5 years "just because", it has to at least be making enough profit to hit their target. Marvel is certainly not afraid to end books that aren't doing well. As far as I understand it, it was popular with a younger audience(who likely wouldn't mind the awful art). Perhaps as that younger audience got older they grew out of it, and it just isn't picking up a new audience.

[Orby]

I know they wanted to try and attract a new audience for Squirrel Girl and that's fine, but if that audience isnt buying your comics then you have a problem, as Squirrel Girl has never really been a main hero people can get behind as a stand alone hero, she has always been a second rate hero or a cameo or a team mate.

I for one loved Squirrel Girl in USAvengers, (man, now that's a comic I wish they never discontinued), I mean she's actually drawn to look like a hero for starters over whatever the fuck they turned her into back in 2015. This was funny because you had two different art styles of squirrel girl wandering around who were basically two different people (felt like it at least):P

[Stormcall]

This was funny because you had two different art styles of squirrel girl wandering around who were basically two different people (felt like it at least):P

Yeah, the one in other books looks like a regular comic character, the one in her own book likes like someone who probably qualifies for all sorts of disability assistance.