Combat CD Overlap

[Eastrod]

I made the switch from assassination to combat late this tier. I was 8/14H by the time I gave in and admitted that it would be more beneficial to the raid if I switched.

Since then, I've been slowly relearning the fights and getting better parses than I had as assassination, however, some of the finer tuning of high ilvl combat is still not clicking for me.

I'm using a 574 AoC with 45% haste and 31.5% crit before raid buffs.

I open with Ambush -> SnD -> RvS -> SS to shallow insight -> KS -> AR/SB. By the time SB wears off, my KS is good to go, I dump some energy, pool some CP's and then KS again while in deep insight. At this point I'm left with ~40sec on AR/SB CD and 1min 20 on KS again and this is where the juggle begins.

Once AR/SB are up, I only have 35-40sec left on KS which means that by the time my AR/SB runs out, I have wasted 3 or 4 finishers worth of CD reduction on my KS. Sometimes during the encounter the difference in the CD's will shift and I will occasionally end up with AR/SB up and only 10sec on my KS CD. In a case like this is it better to burn a few CP's to get that CD down, KS and then AR/SB after that? Is there any way to optimize this kind of CD overlap to get more KS's or any tips you guys have in this regard?

If there is any feedback you can give that will help me improve, don't hold back!

Thanks for your time!

[Imperviable]

I recently swapped to rogue in a 10/14 HM guild. I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of the class is shallow. I hate to derail your topic but could you explain a bit more about the advantages to your raid that you being combat provides? I was under the impression that assassination was higher single target damage.

[Rakhyt]

I recently swapped to rogue in a 10/14 HM guild. I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of the class is shallow. I hate to derail your topic but could you explain a bit more about the advantages to your raid that you being combat provides? I was under the impression that assassination was higher single target damage.

http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/
Combat ranks as number 4 across all fights in SoO. Assi and sub is rolling around at the bottom.
You can check the different fights on the right side of the site and see that on fight as Iron Juggernaut, which is pure single target, combat is the second highest dps overall.

[Raic]

I open with Ambush -> SnD -> RvS -> SS to shallow insight -> KS -> AR/SB.

One minor note here, it might not be worth it to wait until shallow insight to KS. Unless you suffer horrible RNG, both your trinkets should proc on the pull. If you wait until shallow insight, your 10 sec trinket proc may be close to running out. Assuming you are Eastrod from Mal'Ganis, I see you have a HWF TED trinket. I've only ever used Haromms as my 2nd trinket this tier so I'm not too familiar with TED and how it behaves, but based on the tooltip it looks like it would be even more important to hit KS immediately (after SnD is up, of course) as that's when you're getting the most agility (plus, depending on raid comp, skull banner+stormlash too). With this strategy I can usually have AR up for the full duration of the 20 sec AoC proc + pre-pot and I can pull off another KS within deep insight.

I've seen this debated quite a bit on the forums, so I'm not sure if there is some definitive math out there, I've yet to see it.

Once AR/SB are up, I only have 35-40sec left on KS which means that by the time my AR/SB runs out, I have wasted 3 or 4 finishers worth of CD reduction on my KS. Sometimes during the encounter the difference in the CD's will shift and I will occasionally end up with AR/SB up and only 10sec on my KS CD. In a case like this is it better to burn a few CP's to get that CD down, KS and then AR/SB after that? Is there any way to optimize this kind of CD overlap to get more KS's or any tips you guys have in this regard?

As for KS during AR/SB, the general rule used to be use KS outside of AR. However, there was some discussion a little while back as to whether it might be worth it to KS during AR/SB.

Feel free to read through these
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...en-if-AR-is-up
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...ead-yet/page-7 Starting at post #134

[Eastrod]

I was under the impression that assassination was higher single target damage.

Prior to 5.4 assassination was the spec with the highest damage output. With the 4pc from ToT it was just plain OP, not that I was complaining. Blizz decided to give the spec a hefty nerf when they dropped SoO, however, and did some buffing of combat and sub to make all specs viable and specifically make combat less spammy. For the record, combat will still give you carpal tunnel in heroic gear.

The outcome of these changes did make combat and sub single target dps competitive with assassination and combat pulls way ahead in SoO since there are so many opportunities to cleave. Despite their efforts to make combat less spammy, once you get to higher ilvls it's is as bad as it ever was and of course be sure to blow your cloak before you KS so your random teleporting doesn't murder you. Overall combat is more spastic and gives the player less control of their toon, hence why I was avoiding it, but you really can see a big difference on the meters.

[Yodawinfrey]

Honestly, with the way AoC/Restless Blade work together, there really isn't. There will be plenty of times when KS is off CD due to the low CD time of KS coupled with AoC and Restless Blades while AR/SB is running. All I can say is just KS off CD and when you're not running AR/SB. It is what it is. I really with they'd just buff Assassination back to where it was and gave Sub a great AoE. Combat has historically been the top tier Rogue spec at the end of every expansion. No real way to completely optimize KS usage except to use it off CD. I'd even go as far as to say don't wait for certain insights even though I catch myself doing it all the time. Just make the best out of AR/SB and KS usage.

[Avengerx]

One minor note here, it might not be worth it to wait until shallow insight to KS. Unless you suffer horrible RNG, both your trinkets should proc on the pull. If you wait until shallow insight, your 10 sec trinket proc may be close to running out. Assuming you are Eastrod from Mal'Ganis, I see you have a HWF TED trinket. I've only ever used Haromms as my 2nd trinket this tier so I'm not too familiar with TED and how it behaves, but based on the tooltip it looks like it would be even more important to hit KS immediately (after SnD is up, of course) as that's when you're getting the most agility (plus, depending on raid comp, skull banner+stormlash too). With this strategy I can usually have AR up for the full duration of the 20 sec AoC proc + pre-pot and I can pull off another KS within deep insight.

I've seen this debated quite a bit on the forums, so I'm not sure if there is some definitive math out there, I've yet to see it.



As for KS during AR/SB, the general rule used to be use KS outside of AR. However, there was some discussion a little while back as to whether it might be worth it to KS during AR/SB.

Feel free to read through these
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...en-if-AR-is-up
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic...ead-yet/page-7 Starting at post #134

This +1. Waiting for shallow insight at the start means you probably wasted a good amount of trinket/weapon enchant proc time at the start.

This really depends on your number of cp and current energy, but if you have like 10 secs or so on KS and SB/AR is up, I think it might be a good idea to just start gathering anticipation charges, wait out that 10 seconds, pop KS and then have almost 2 evises once you pop SB/AR.

KS during SB/AR is an interesting question indeed. I'm really not sure what the optimal route here is, but as you still do normal attacks during KS and those can't miss while under SB it might not be a bad idea to use KS at the very end of SB/AR. (This would probably require some proof tho)

[Eastrod]

Assuming you are Eastrod from Mal'Ganis, I see you have a HWF TED trinket. I've only ever used Haromms as my 2nd trinket this tier so I'm not too familiar with TED and how it behaves, but based on the tooltip it looks like it would be even more important to hit KS immediately.

Yep, that's me. I originally tried to link my armory and some raid logs but my account is new and it wouldn't let me use links in my post. I'll give that opener change a try on the dummy and see how it goes! As far as lust/pre-pot go, both are still up by the time i finish the opener I've been using but with the bigger TED agi boost at the beginning that may outweigh the shallow insight.

Feel free to read through these
*can't post links*

This is the type of discussion I was looking for. Thanks for the links!

Honestly, with the way AoC/Restless Blade work together, there really isn't. There will be plenty of times when KS is off CD due to the low CD time of KS coupled with AoC and Restless Blades while AR/SB is running. All I can say is just KS off CD and when you're not running AR/SB. It is what it is. I really with they'd just buff Assassination back to where it was and gave Sub a great AoE. Combat has historically been the top tier Rogue spec at the end of every expansion. No real way to completely optimize KS usage except to use it off CD. I'd even go as far as to say don't wait for certain insights even though I catch myself doing it all the time. Just make the best out of AR/SB and KS usage.

This is essentially what I have been doing and what I expected to hear. It's not fun watching CD's sit there unused but it's the best we can do. Even if I can't optimize much more than I am now, at least with combat I can keep up with the locks and enhance shammys that are topping our meters.

[Carp The Fish]

My opener generally goes RvS -> SND -> SS x3 -> KS -> AR/SB. That way, I get Shallow up during the trinket procs in time to use KS.

After the initial burst (which you described perfectly already), I'll generally use AR/SB off-CD as long as Killing Spree has more than 20 seconds on it. That way, I can overlap the end of AR with KS (which should yield a slight DPS increase because of the extra auto-attacks and the 4P bonus at the end).
But in general, use KS on-CD as long as it's not during AR/SB, and use AR/SB on-CD as often as possible.

Overlap is just something that happens at the end of tiers for Combat. We complained about the same basic thing in Dragon Soul when we'd get dagger procs, not much else to do about it.

Note: I'm at 56% Haste and 40% Mastery, which is a bit lower than yours, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[Daltin]

Ever since I got the 4pc bonus, I've been TRYING to avoid using Killing Spree during AR/SB. But if it happens, it happens. Wasting 2.5 seconds of AR/SB seems to be a good trade off for KS with the bonus. Don't know the exact math, but I know I don't want to leave a potential 2 or 3 Killing Sprees on the table because I withheld them because of AR/SB.

[Deleted]

Ever since I got the 4pc bonus, I've been TRYING to avoid using Killing Spree during AR/SB.

Using KS under the effects of both AR and SB is a narrow dps increase. Under the effects of one however, is not. Considering the # of times all 3 line up, it's not commonly known or even used for that matter. Was discussed quite a bit on the EJ thread back in December iirc.

Saying that, I'm not sure if there was a conclusion for the opener. For reliability I assume the standard KS > AR would be good, but potentially not optimal.

[Illana]

Using KS under the effects of both AR and SB is a narrow dps increase. Under the effects of one however, is not. Considering the # of times all 3 line up, it's not commonly known or even used for that matter. Was discussed quite a bit on the EJ thread back in December iirc.

Saying that, I'm not sure if there was a conclusion for the opener. For reliability I assume the standard KS > AR would be good, but potentially not optimal.

when you do ever use SB without AR or vice versa?

Opener just makes sense using KS first and then AR/SB since it means it's very likely you will get more KS during the fight.

As to the OP: as people have said, 10% damage from shallow insight is nowhere near the benefit you get if you KSed with all trinket procs up.

if you have 30-45 seconds left on ks and you have AR/SB up I would think just popping KS when it becomes available is fine unless you know for a fact you would not have gotten another KS in the fight.

The last situation is a bit harder and depends completely on the duration of the fight and what fight it is. Imo it's pretty safe just to burn 5cps and KS before AR/SB in most situations. Any longer and I doubt it's worth it.

[Deleted]

when you do ever use SB without AR or vice versa?

You don't, but that's irrelevant. Additionally, macroing them creates a 3s window of AR without SB, so the point still stands. (And I trust Pathal's math)

[Elbrondane]

When I play combat, I generally just go through CDs before hitting killing spree unless I'm in deep insight and it will end before CDs are over.

[SilkDath]

From what I am seeing here, people are waiting WAY too long to KSP after opening. If you are trying to get an insight level before KSP , that is a mistake, get SnD up, blow ksp with trinkets for maximum burst. Potentially losing dancing steel or trinket procs in the time it takes for 3 Sinister Strikes in an attempt to get to an insignificant amount of CI will just lower your dps. KSP during DInsight is only a minor dps inc over the course of a fight, let alone in Shallow.

Another thing to consider is how close KSP is to coming off cooldown before blowing ARSB, if you are < 20 sec on KSP CD, get the finishers off ASAP, use KSP then ARSB off that to get max efficiency from restless blades.
Finishers used when KSP or ARSB are off CD are wasted.

[Icecreamcake]

Sorry but what is the proper opener for combat

I usually do

Ambush > RS > SS > SnD > KS > SB/AR > Rupture > Spam Evi

But some people seem to do

Ambush > RS > SnD > SS to 5 point Rupture > KS > SB/AR > SS > Spam Evi

[Artorius]

Sorry but what is the proper opener for combat

I usually do

Ambush > RS > SS > SnD > KS > SB/AR > Rupture > Spam Evi

But some people seem to do

Ambush > RS > SnD > SS to 5 point Rupture > KS > SB/AR > SS > Spam Evi

There isn't a clear answer, some open with RvS to advance Bandit's Guile, some don't use rupture at all, some use 1cp SnD > KS, some push to Shallow before KS...

As long as you're able to do KS > AR/SB > KS and fit the second KS at the first deep insight, I think you're ok.

[Deleted]

Personally i do ambush>SND>RS>KS>AR/SB what i notice is sometimes i don't seem to get second KS in deep insight, its strange i don't get it why,thou im still a newby rogue and im still improving im sure im doing something wrong.Now i have a silly question, i play a little on dummy last night and i notice something that i miss all this months, using a finisher move at 8-9-10 Anticipation is a dps increase over using it at 5cp, did i see it wrong ( as i was half drunk) or im a pure retard and miss this trick from all the guides that i read?

[Deleted]

What i do in this situation is to try and minimise the loss from them overlapping. I stack 10 cps when there is like 3/4 secs left on AR if KS is up because When you KS you are going to energy cap regardless so dump as much energy you can before the KS then after 2x evis to capitalise 20sec reduction. However if you get KS early in AR just leave it, it isnt worth losing alot of AR time just hold it towards the end.

[Kael]

Now i have a silly question, i play a little on dummy last night and i notice something that i miss all this months, using a finisher move at 8-9-10 Anticipation is a dps increase over using it at 5cp, did i see it wrong ( as i was half drunk) or im a pure retard and miss this trick from all the guides that i read?

Too much drinking, and dummy tests aren't really effective unless you're testing a specific mechanic or have a few thousand rogues running them. You DO get more damage from using finishers at a higher Bandit's Guile level, which can be aided by using anticipation to allow yourself to stack to, e.g. 8 CP instead of 5, and pushing from no-to-shallow insight; that will net 10% more damage on the finisher. By itself? No, a 5-CP finisher is a 5-CP finisher, regardless of AntiP.