Morbid Feedback: Soul Reaper

[Magdalena]

After a generally positive response to my initial feedback collation thread, I’m putting forward another pertinent topic that I would like to see community discussion on.

This thread’s particular topic is Soul Reaper in the Mists of Pandaria context.

Questions to consider:

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Note: For the purposes of this thread, DW and 2h Frost will be counted as different specs. Please be sure to specify which variant you’re talking about!

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Guidelines:

-This thread aims to give individual community members a chance to voice their opinions and experiences. There is no “right” or “wrong” answer when it comes to said opinions.

-Each poster’s goal should be to try to clearly and succinctly provide what feedback they think is pertinent to this topic. Opinions about what other people might post (whether it be factually incorrect, or simply something you disagree with) are less useful.

-Words like “clunky”, “scaling” and “broken” are taboo. They provide no useful context for either the developers or the community to refer back to. Remember: The more effort you put into (succinctly!) explaining your point of view, the better the chances of it being understood and reflected upon by relevant parties.

-This is not a wishlist thread. Please don’t use it as a space to voice what you hope happens in the coming expansion; rather try and explain what your experience over this expansion has been.

-My participation in this thread will be limited. On occasion, I will attempt to summarise and paraphrase good points made by other players; probably asking if my stated understanding of their point is accurate.

I look forward to seeing what the community has to say on this topic.

As I did last time, I've posted this on MMO-C more for the sake of EU players, as I do not have direct access to their forums. US players, please do consider posting your thoughts in this thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12205860606#1

[rrp.nikolai]

2H Frost and 2H Blood (Come one Blizz make DW Blood viable again do it) ~550ilvl DK with a fair bit of other class experience.

The only use I find for this these days is solo content. I'm not really into raiding but in the limited experience I've had with LFR and Flex, it doesn't provide a solid DPS boost comparable to other classes similar abilities. It just takes up room on my bar and sits there taunting me to use it more.

In solo content I use it solely to proc the haste buff and clean up my runes. The only area if seems to really shine is pulling more then one mob and trying to maintain it each time one dies, but with the duration its tricky at best. Using it for damage you can't get more then one damage proc before anything dies.
With blood it can significantly speed up farming, but who farms in blood :/

Can't think of any talent of glyph I change that has anything to do with it.

Dunno what could be done to make it more appealing, maybe a small haste buff when the damage procs too, or possibly a chance to gain a rune back? Maybe it could even send your Ghoul into a soul fed frenzy if you have it out. Who knows.

(Oh yeah and its clunky, broken and tricky to scale without a proper knife, just cause )

[Nangz]

Specs: have played all this expansion in endgame raiding.


Blood's soul reaper feel fine because of its replacement of the wet noodle heart strike.

For unholy I find this ability is perfect, acting as a suitable upgrade for scourge strike.

For dw frost again the ability is fine because it just replaces a howling blast. I dislike its damage being not worth using. Fixable in a few ways but its not a wishlist thread.

For 2h frost, the ability doesn't fit because it directly competes with obliterate in a way that isn't easy to just swap in and swap out. Especially annoying for the vacant unholy rune. In my opinion, this is the only reason that RC remains a hard to use level 75 talent for this spec.

[Erishkigal]

2h frost - it's a positive addition but I still feel like it should be free and the initial weapon damage removed, really breaks up the flow otherwise.
blood - find it a real pain in the arse and wish I didn't have to deal with it, extra annoying bind really

[Deleted]

I've played all four specs in MoP, currently defaulted to UH/Blood.

For UH, Soul Reaper is awesome. A proper execute both in PvP and PvE. Only probnlem I have with it is the CD, which makes it hard to line up properly with runes. I constantly end up with either waiting a sec or two to use SR after a rune comes up or use it on SS and delay SR a sec or two. But a small annoyance really.

Blood: Awesome on trash/adds to get the hastebuff, in bosses it's a nice to have thing but not exactly mandatory.

Frost Specs: Useless really. The lack of Frost damage hurts it with DW and competing with OB hurts it in 2h.

[Nomisno]

Yeah!

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

(Copy & Paste from old thread) Did (mostly 10 man) raiding until 5.3 which was when our group split up, not much hc though. Obv as much soloing as possible. Played mostly blood, unholy as second specc - actually in some raids I played unholy because my dps gear has always been better than the dps gear of my co-tanks

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

I find its impact on the gameplay, or rather the feeling of playing your class, very modest since it simply replaces one main ability when it's ready. Anyway, I somehow like how it works; it's not just a "press the button and it instantly deals huge damage". Gaining the +haste from adds is really awesome and helps both blood and unholy; having an executer is just as fine. Sometimes I found myself saving runes for SR instead of just using them (like I would just instanly use a blood rune for HS). Its nature of having a CD doesn't really bother me since I still feel smooth playing with it while waiting with an unused rune. Due to higher haste with UH gear this is more a blood thing imo.
They should maybe make it proc blood worms, too. Having one chance less of blood worms proccing due to SR replacing one HS just for a small damage boost is so...I don't know :/
For unholy it is perfect imo - a simple damage push that doesn't feel particularly weird

[Zstr]

as dk is my alt so it's from casual level prespective:
2h frost it's really annoying to use ability, to use it you have to sacrifice frost\unholy rune so it's results in missing Obliterate strikes, especially with Killing machine procs
as Blood it's just another dps button, not really noticeable

[Sunnydee]

I want my runes to be used for proper things. to make it solid for other specs aswell just make it like warriors execute? only usable below 35% and cost like 20RP?

[Schizoide]

I played primarily 2H frost, DW frost, and Blood, but also spent some time as unholy.

Soul Reaper is not particularly strong as frost spec, but it was barely worth using for most of the expansion. My main feedback is that it should deal Shadowfrost damage.

Shadowfrost came up over and over in MoP beta. The devs responded to that feedback saying they were aware Soul Reaper was much stronger for Unholy, and they were fine with that. Given how weak it has been for frost throughout the expansion, I believe they should reconsider. It's only worth 1-3% total damage (depending on 2H vs DW) and while that is "worth using", the execute phase is supposed to be meaningful. If the execute phase doesn't offer a noticeable performance shift or gameplay improvement, why have the ability at all? Lots of other specs have lackluster executes, but at least abilities like kill shot are free.

On another note, we also had lots of feedback in MoP beta that SR was too strong for Unholy, and that Unholy had too much of their total damage in the execute phase, and that proved to largely be a non-issue. So it's not like we're always right. SR is great for Unholy.

[AndyF1069]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

Unholy main spec and occasional tanking when called upon in addition to lots of solo content

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

Unholy - I know that soul reaper is a damage increase, but I don't notice it. I use it because I know that it would be a dps loss to not use it, not because it feels awesome to use it. On raid bosses, there is too much happening to notice the large numbers and out in the world, things usually die too quickly for me to make use of it. I only know that soul reaper did a lot of damage by checking recount at the end of boss encounters.

I also dislike the lack of ui element to inform you that the ability is optimal to use (and this is because it can be used at any health percentage). I had to download an addon just to be able to see health percentages to effectively use it.

In PvP, the effects are more noticable. It does feel good to have the soul reaper tick down and then explode in your enemies face, but it's also very unreliable. If the enemy just happens to heal up above 35%, then your rune is wasted and it feels lame.

If there was a glyph that caused the shadow portion of soul reaper to be applied instantly at reduced damage or increased cooldown then I would likely take it for pvp purposes, but not for pve, unless it was proven to be a dps improvement.

I do not change my talents or existing glyphs to accomodate soul reaper due to soul reaper having a six second cooldown.


For blood spec, I notice the effects of soul reaper even less than I do as unholy. If there is satisfaction to be felt from checking meters or logs as unholy spec, there is none for blood. I only pvp in blood if I ever need to be a holder of an object and the damage from soul reaper in blood spec is barely noticable and doesn't cause the feeling of satisfaction that I feel in unholy when it does a significant chunk of damage or causes a killing blow - In blood spec it does neither.

[Schizoide]

I also dislike the lack of ui element to inform you that the ability is optimal to use (and this is because it can be used at any health percentage). I had to download an addon just to be able to see health percentages to effectively use it.

This is an excellent point. I find SR basically unusable without addons.

[Skarssen]

Default unit frames have a display percentages option.



- cleared all heroic content as 2h frost, DW frost, and blood (on specific encounters) since 4.0

- I don't have a problem with the mechanics of SR, it is just weak at the moment. I use it as 2h frost when I don't have KM up, but I have also played without it and not noticed a difference in my final numbers. I don't use it at all as DW since an HB with 80+% mastery hits almost as hard ST and is far superior on cleave. Don't play unholy at all, but I know SR is much more powerful for them. Definitely use it as blood so long as I don't need to DS immediately.

- SR is pretty good in low rated PVP or against classes/teams that can't dispel, but the fact that is can be dispelled is pretty terrible. Not aware of any other execute in the game that has that weakness.

- Overall the SR mechanic is fine but it needs to be something that takes priority when the boss is in execute range, and right now both frost specs can ignore it completely and it wouldn't make much, if any, difference.

[Schizoide]

Default unit frames have a display percentages option.

That is not a strong counterargument. Default unitframes show debuffs on your target too, but I find myself with low disease uptime without addons.

[Nomisno]

That is not a strong counterargument. Default unitframes show debuffs on your target too, but I find myself with low disease uptime without addons.

It's still personal preference imo. I don't have problems with the default disease display. I get your point, though.

[Firebert]

-What specs have you had played with the most this expansion?

DW Blood.

-In terms of actual effect on play, what has your experience with Soul Reaper been? Has it made a noticeable difference in what talents/glyphs you run, or even the spec that you play?

It's now my go-to Blood rune ability post-35%, after Blood Boil pre-35%. It's a must-use for non-2H Blood as it scales off of AP and not weapon damage. The rolling 6s rune usage allows for even RP generation which assists in keeping your Death Strikes even, as well as leaving a rune open for Blood Boil when you need it.

mortSoulReaper addon is a must.

[Deleted]

when i think of execute abilities i think of instant semi hard hitting spells with a cd killshot, soulburn etc , soulreaper does not feel like an execute spell, it takes too long to trigger, would rather it just be the instant damage.

[Soisoisoi]

Blood - Meh, replace a Blood Boil / Heart Strike.
Unholy - Fits pretty well as you use mostly single-rune attacks (i.e. SS/NeS) anyway.
2H Frost - Clunky as fuck. Soul Reaper and ending up playing the DW play-style (aka cleaving) on most fights made me just go DW Frost anyway.
DW Frost - Fits for the same reason as Unholy.

I've used it Glyphed on Norushen early on when we had trouble with nobody killing the adds, and the run speed was pretty nifty seeing as DKs have terrible mobility in PvE.

Major downside is that it's a 5 second timer. I don't mind the fact I have to wait and time it properly, but when I hit an ability I want the damage there and then... not 5 globals later making it feel "meh". It feels boring and lackluster to use, especially considering two targets as Frost a HB will do more damage. The haste procc, whilst good on paper... Again feels boring. It's also useless for questing or dungeons most of the time.

Soul Reaper has mostly been an annoyance for me, and I've played all specs of a DK. Honestly I wouldn't care if it was removed, or stayed only for Unholy; it just doesn't fit Frost (2H or DW) or Blood imo. They could make it more of a fast-ticking DoT (5 ticks total, over 5s), and I'd be fine for the "meh / boring" part, but the rune cost for all but DW Frost and Unholy still stands.

[Nomisno]

when i think of execute abilities i think of instant semi hard hitting spells with a cd killshot, soulburn etc , soulreaper does not feel like an execute spell, it takes too long to trigger, would rather it just be the instant damage.

I semi-disagree. Instant damage obviously feels groovier, but the additional effect of it giving haste is something pretty useful. I would really miss that if it became instant damage.

[Shahad]

I raid heroic content (cleared Siege of Orgrimmar), albeit not on my DK. However, I have played one exclusively in the past, and am involved with #Acherus as well as have played my DK in non-heroic raid content in Mists of Pandaria.

I have played around with all three choices with all three specs (including both Frost subspecs) in a variety of encounters across the expansion.

I do little more than the occasional BG and arena PvP-wise.

I will be giving my feedback across all specs.

Soul Reaper, while neat in concept, doesn't really generate all that much excitement as an execute. If I take the execute mechanic of the Shadow Priest, a class I have been playing this expansion, the execute phase does much more than simply allow a spell that hits hard. Beyond the damage of Shadow Word: Death, it's it's extra Shadow Orb generation that makes it really exciting as it allows a lot more cast of Devouring Plague, and thus channels of Mind Flay: Insanity. It makes me feel like I'm doing more big damage beyond the numerical effect on my DPS.

What's more, as well as lacking any extra mechanic beyond the damage it deals, Soul Reaper just replaces a specs signature strike every 6-ish seconds. It could be a passive applied to said signature strikes and gameplay would barely change. As it is, Soul Reaper forces us to save a rune to use it on, going contrary to the entire playstyle of the class during the first 35% of an encounter, which is about spending resources as fast as possible. In addition, it's downright awkward to use as 2H Frost because of it's incompatibility with Obliterate's two Rune cost and it is barely worth using as DW. Overall I feel like I don't mind it too much as Unholy and Blood, but it is more of an annoyance as Frost.

[SSHA778]

Cross-posting for the sake of non-US players:

Coming from a theorycrafting perspective,

DKs having an execute ability is fine to me. However, I think its implementation could be improved.

For those who were in the Beta, we saw SR introduced with a death rune cost for every spec. This immediately made BT the most optimal choice since it led to the highest generation of death runes, and therefore the greatest probability of having a death rune available when SR came off CD. This was addressed with a pretty landmark change: the same ability having a completely different resource type cost for every single spec (or rather, 3 copies of the same ability). Someone can probably come up with a counterexample, but I don’t ever recall having seen that been done before. It’s not a good precedent in my opinion.

However, it gets to the deeper issue with SR. By implementing that cost change, we can make one or two inferences about the developers: 1) they didn’t want to force everyone to take BT, and/or 2) they recognize that the effect of an ability cost is not equal across all specs (e.g., a Frost rune cost affects 2H Frost and DW Frost differently in terms of the rotation). I think predominantly the reason for the change was for the first reason, however, we did see them implement some strange logic with BT to start biasing a certain rune types (although this really doesn’t matter because a fully depleted rune isn’t recharging anyway). This would lead me to conclude that they’re also somewhat aware of the rotational impacts for different rune costs.

Going on my personal feelings for an execute, I feel that an execute should be a direct replacement for your primary strike during the execute phase. That is, if your primary strike is HB, your execute should have the identical rotational impact (i.e., resource cost) as HB so that weaving in your execute does not disturb your rotation (also, the execute should at least proc any effect that your primary ability would proc). This is the case for every spec except 2H Frost, whose primary strike is a double-rune ability, whereas the execute is a single-rune ability.

Thus, there exists friction when using SR for 2H Frost. By pressing SR, you’re locking yourself out of Obliterate, which is nothing less than frustrating, particularly around a KM proc. This can be alleviated by BT, and is probably a pretty strong reason for picking BT as 2H Frost. Additionally, DW Frost’s main strike is also a cleave, but I think executes should be strictly limited to single target, so this provides a different rotation for DW-ST and DW-AoE, which is fine in my opinion.

While I’m aware that this thread is not about wishlisting, in the same vein as discussion rotational impact, there is one candidate for every spec that has the exact same rotational impact: the RP dump. Blood dumps RP with RS. Frost dumps RP with FS. Unholy dumps RP with DC. Every spec uses one, and, while they have different costs, they all lead to the same result: spend RP to do damage and refund runes via T75. RP costs are not unwieldy for any specs, provided that it procs anything that the RP dump also procs.

Additionally, I’ve always felt that the 6s CD and the rune cost don’t really mesh too well. Rune costs themselves introduce a pseudo-CD, so tacking a hard CD on top of that is just overkill (I understand the reason but still disagree). RP is particularly suitable to hard cooldowns.

As for potency, whatever the primary strike scales with, so must the execute. An execute needs to be the clear choice, not only a marginally better choice.