Tinker Discussion Thread

[Vulcanasm]

Warcraft hasn't been high fantasy for nearly 20 years, I mean Warcraft II used oil as one of it's primary resources, I mean for fucks sake it had a submarine! You can't go into a non-high fanatasy series and expect it to change because you want it to be one.

Did you really mean to say something this completely stupid? Warcraft has literally every aspect of high fantasy. Claiming it's a different genre because it mixed in some trivial examples years back won't convince millions of subscribers otherwise. Players expect high fantasy tropes. Blizzard won't be replacing wizards with copper-toned electric cannons -- uh, sorry, "anbaric?"... whatever pretend word steampunk cosplay people use, sorry, the Golden Compass sequels sucked so much that I blocked them from my memory.

So was the Brewmaster. They still made a class out of it.

And how did that work out for overall subscribers?

Brewmasters aren't popular. Monks aren't popular. At one point in WOTLK, >20% of active characters were Death Knights. At no point in MoP were Monks even above the class average. For a new class, that's a pretty pathetic track record, eh?

Now, Tinkers are in less demand than Monks ever were.

So, why do you think they're a good idea?

(This is really the fundamental problem with TinkerTards: they're all zealots who ignore all evidence they find inconvenient, no matter how plainly obvious. At best they try to shout reality down by screeching louder. No one wants tinkers except 6 or 7 people who simply cannot shut up about it. They all have Tinker Tourette's. Simply put, tinkers are a terrible idea that will never be popular and Monks are exactly the example that prove it.)

That was years ago, it's not relevant with modern engineering design.

The only reason modern battegrounds aren't full of Engineers is that Blizzard shut off all the belt enchants in Crapaclysm. Most progression raid guilds are still majority Engineers. We're 11/14 H and 6 people in our 10 man crew have Engineering.

[Wildtree]

Best profession DPS wise first off.

I don't get this.... Did I miss the boat now?
The main benefit of the professions was long leveled out, and translates into the same advantage.
I can see how engineer tinkers give one a slight burst boost for a few seconds, but in overall with math applied it again levels down to the famous 320 stat increase.
Maybe I overlooking something. idk.

[Dispraise]

Saying a profession with a technology theme makes a tinkerer redunant is like saying a profession with a magic theme makes all mages, priests and warlocks redundant. It's just not true.

If they implemented a "sorcery" profession which you used to summon fireballs, yes, it would absolutely be redundant. An enchanter is different than a mage because they're using magic in different ways, to separate ends. There is established lore that demonstrates their differences. That is not the case with engineers. From all lore accounts, they are the same exact thing. The only difference is the power level of the gadgets we get to play with.

[Seriss]

The concept of a tinker class is certainly not popular with ME.

I never liked the technology stuff in WoW.

It's why I don't like Gnomeregan.

It's the part that I hate about Ulduar. Flame Leviathan, XT, Mimiron (the fight is cool, but I don't like the tech part of it! Just like the train journey that you had to do back when but don't have to do anymore today was kind of cool but kind of weird for WoW). I just don't like titan technology engineering stuff. I'm sorry!!!

I don't like the chopper, I don't like the sky golem.

I think Siegecrafter is a cool fight, but I still don't like the tech-stuff there.

It's just the visuals, I guess.

In my brain, fighting with magic and swords and stuff refuses to line up with titan-engineering-tinkering-technology.

My dislike for those oil rigs and other environment-polluting goblin shenanigans probably walks hand in hand with the aforementioned sentiments.

[Duridi]

It's the least stupid class concept if you ask me.

It is much easier to create a unique and interesting class out it than many of the other suggestions. Bards are another one, but those I find incredibly stupid though...

[Wildtree]

The concept of a tinker class is certainly not popular with ME.

I never liked the technology stuff in WoW.

It's why I don't like Gnomeregan.

It's the part that I hate about Ulduar. Flame Leviathan, XT, Mimiron (the fight is cool, but I don't like the tech part of it! Just like the train journey that you had to do back when but don't have to do anymore today was kind of cool but kind of weird for WoW). I just don't like titan technology engineering stuff. I'm sorry!!!

I don't like the chopper, I don't like the sky golem.

I think Siegecrafter is a cool fight, but I still don't like the tech-stuff there.

It's just the visuals, I guess.

In my brain, fighting with magic and swords and stuff refuses to line up with titan-engineering-tinkering-technology.

My dislike for those oil rigs and other environment-polluting goblin shenanigans probably walks hand in hand with the aforementioned sentiments.

I am with you there...
I've always found that technology part in WoW to take away from the classic fantasy feeling. I like the game a lot, but I think without the technology parts it would be even better.

[Teriz]

The uniqueness of the class is the one thing I did not question. If you remove all other considerations besides how the theme compares to the themes of other classes, sure. It's unique. But that is not the only consideration.

No, but it is a big one. Blizzard wants classes to be distinct from each other. There is no other theme within the WoW universe as large and varied as the technology theme, and there's no class to represent it.

Being common is not the same as being established. There are a crapload of tinkers in the lore, yes, but none of them are well established.

How long does it take to be established? Mekkatorque was in WoW from the beginning. We fought a Tinker boss in Vanilla WoW. The Tinker hero pre-dates the entire game. We had Gnomish and Goblin inventors in WC2.

Not really, no. We have gnomes who make stuff that fails alot, we have goblins who make stuff that explodes, and we have titans who make stuff that actually works, but can't be reliably duplicated cuz reasons. None of it has any real depth, or explanation.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gnome
http://www.wowwiki.com/Goblin
http://www.wowwiki.com/Titan
http://www.wowwiki.com/Technology

read up.

That point can be interpreted as personal bias, so instead I will stick to the objective and much more important fact: none of the established canon separates engineers from tinkers, as they are literally one and the same in the lore.

Perhaps because "engineer" is a generic term for anyone who works with machinery. Just like "warrior" is a generic term for any person who is skilled in combat or weapons. Paladins are called warriors. Death Knights are called warriors. Even Shaman are called warriors.

Blizzard has spent a decade not implementing the tinker.

And Blizzard spent 8 years not implementing the Monk class. We still got the Monk class.

- - - Updated - - -

If they implemented a "sorcery" profession which you used to summon fireballs, yes, it would absolutely be redundant. An enchanter is different than a mage because they're using magic in different ways, to separate ends. There is established lore that demonstrates their differences. That is not the case with engineers. From all lore accounts, they are the same exact thing. The only difference is the power level of the gadgets we get to play with.

Enchanters can summon fireballs. Also according to lore, Enchanting is a branch of magic all Mages are expected to learn.

[Thimagryn]

Tinkers can heal now? Man fan fiction =/= cannon lore

According to some people, Tinkers can probably use Demonic magic without overlapping with Warlocks too.

[Hatecore]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gnome
http://www.wowwiki.com/Goblin
http://www.wowwiki.com/Titan
http://www.wowwiki.com/Technology

read up.

alot of it pulls from the rpg books and as you said not cannon chief

[Redpanda]

me personally because it reminds me of Luca from crono cross and trigger.

[Ielenia]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gnome
http://www.wowwiki.com/Goblin
http://www.wowwiki.com/Titan
http://www.wowwiki.com/Technology
read up.

Care to tell us what to look for in those four walls of text you are trying to demand others to read? They're too long to bother reading when they come from someone who blatantly ignores all arguments against their ideas?

Perhaps because "engineer" is a generic term for anyone who works with machinery. Just like "warrior" is a generic term for any person who is skilled in combat or weapons. Paladins are called warriors. Death Knights are called warriors. Even Shaman are called warriors.

Yeah.... no. Because we have the word 'engineer' well established in WoW. And nice going using the same argument I used against you before, which you called nonsensical, btw. The hypocrisy is strong with this one.

Enchanters can summon fireballs. Also according to lore, Enchanting is a branch of magic all Mages are expected to learn.

Care to show us the enchanting ability that makes the enchanter shoot fireballs, not through an item, but through his/her hands? And no. It's a school of magic. One of eight. No mages know all schools. Read the lore.

[Revi]

If they implemented a "sorcery" profession which you used to summon fireballs, yes, it would absolutely be redundant. An enchanter is different than a mage because they're using magic in different ways, to separate ends. There is established lore that demonstrates their differences. That is not the case with engineers. From all lore accounts, they are the same exact thing. The only difference is the power level of the gadgets we get to play with.

Enchanting can make wands that shoot shadow bolts, that does not mean enchanting and Warlocks fill the same design space. Just like enchanting wands, engineering gadget cannot be used to kill relevant enemies, or mitigate damage, or heal, or CC. Engineering can make devices to teleport a player, yet Mages exist. Herbalism can cast a HoT, yet druids exist.

I get that people don't like Tinkers, but engineering just isn't a good argument against them.
There's npcs in wow with the engineering profession, and there's npcs in wow of the Tinkerer class. They already co-exist in game, just not for players.

[Dispraise]

No, but it is a big one. Blizzard wants classes to be distinct from each other. There is no other theme within the WoW universe as large and varied as the technology theme, and there's no class to represent it.

Not arguing that with you. Without the other considerations in mind, the concept might be fun. But, again, there are other considerations.

How long does it take to be established? Mekkatorque was in WoW from the beginning. We fought a Tinker boss in Vanilla WoW. The Tinker hero pre-dates the entire game. We had Gnomish and Goblin inventors in WC2.

It's not an issue of length, it's what they do with it. Mekkatorque's been in since the beginning, and has done next to nothing in that time. The retaking of gnomeregan is about the only time he's been relevant.

read up.

I did. You just listed the three examples I already covered.

Perhaps because "engineer" is a generic term for anyone who works with machinery. Just like "warrior" is a generic term for any person who is skilled in combat or weapons. Paladins are called warriors. Death Knights are called warriors. Even Shaman are called warriors.

Uh huh. And all of them have lore that established them as being separate and distinct. What lore separates an engineer from a tinker?

Enchanters can summon fireballs. Also according to lore, Enchanting is a branch of magic all Mages are expected to learn.

No, enchanters can use magical reagents to create augments that generate various effects, fire being among them. That is a distinction, however tenuous it might seem, and that is all I'm asking for.

And Blizzard spent 8 years not implementing the Monk class. We still got the Monk class.

You missed the point. If you can present a class concept for a tinker that bears all the hallmarks of good design, I'm not gonna argue against it. Heck, if it sounds fun I'll even support it.

[Duridi]

If you draw lines between the profession we already know, and the tinkerer, there's a few upsides for certain players. Some players really enjoy throwing bombs and engineering devices in combat. Why is it so wrong to offer them a class that "solely" focus on this type of combat? We all have our preferences in type of spells we deal damage, heal or tank with. Engineering devices is a quite unique form of it, which I'd say is a shame to see only works as a sub-par alternative from a profession. This type of combat isn't offered by any other class yet. Classes such as demonhunter however, is already torn apart by a few other classes, making it much harder to create something unique.

I can certainly see the appeal in throwing various types of bombs as your main damage dealing ability(to use that obvious thing as an example), so why limit it to a profession where everything has to be incredibly toned down and limited?

[Teriz]

Tinkers can heal now? Man fan fiction =/= cannon lore

The ability to heal is common in the technology theme.

[Dinousek]

FF11 did a great job with this when they created Puppetmasters. It fulfills the desire for a pet job, is somewhat mechanical in nature, can fulfill any of the 3 canon roles of healer, tank or dps (both conventional ranged and magic ranged).

I am sure the guys at Blizzard could take up the challenge to design a Tinker or Steampunk class and I have confidence they would come up with something great. Afterall, these guys make the very game that most of us here enjoy playing.

So maybe the reason they don't do this is known only to them. Sure it might involve money, or corporate preference or it may fall to the whim of a final arbitrator.

I will say this, and I speak for narry another soul, I think adding it to the game would be a step in the right direction for a player like myself, who enjoys immensely class systems.

Oh and Druids added to FF 11 would make my day .

[Zoldor]

That's like saying you can't imagine Iron Man beating a villain who uses magic or super strength.

Yet he does it all the time.

Advanced Technology is equal to magic and superhuman abilities throughout the fantasy genre.

As for why Tinkers are popular? Some folks just think Goblins and Gnomes in mechs are cool.

Comparing the technology of Iron Man to that of a steam punk Tinker is a pretty huge assumption and gap. For sure its popularity is due to the rising popularity of Steam Punk recently. Still I don't think its a good fit and I think we'd be more likely to see an artificer before a tinker. I just don't feel an entire class based on technology is really worthwhile in WoW. Engineering is as good as its going to get. To make a tinker something more than a support class really takes it out of the traditional Tinker ideal. And we've seen how WoW handled support classes early on and there is a reason they are gone.

Honestly I think the Engineer feels the niche pretty well. You get mechs and Bombs etc. I just have never been impressed with technology classes in a more fantasy driven genre.

Opinion wise I don't think we'll ever see another class in WoW. I also don't see the need for them. If we do it might be demon hunter, which I could careless about I've got a warlock, but even I think that is a stretch. The major bases are covered with the current classes and any new classes will be more niche and narrow. A hero or paragon path would be interesting.

[BlizzardApologist]

They're NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT. Christ just like with pandaren so many people claim that "EVERYONE WANTS THIS NO REALLY!", but if you'd make a poll with everyone answering you'd probably have a 50%/50% ratio.

Why are people so hell bent on picking the most obscure features or appearances in Warcraft history and turning trying to turn them into a sudden "WE REALLY NEED THIS IN WOW!" phenomenon?

[Ielenia]

The ability to heal is common in the technology theme.

Common? I only see one instance where it happens, and it's that healing spray from the Blackfuse Engineers. I'd hardly call it 'common'. I'd say it's more qualified as 'super rare'.

[Teriz]

It's not an issue of length, it's what they do with it. Mekkatorque's been in since the beginning, and has done next to nothing in that time. The retaking of gnomeregan is about the only time he's been relevant.

It could be argued that Blizzard is merely saving his lore for a future expansion.

Uh huh. And all of them have lore that established them as being separate and distinct. What lore separates an engineer from a tinker?

The Tinker Union, the High Tinker title, their weaponry, their abilities, and the fact that they're almost entirely made up of Goblins and Gnomes.

No, enchanters can use magical reagents to create augments that generate various effects, fire being among them. That is a distinction, however tenuous it might seem, and that is all I'm asking for


You missed the point. If you can present a class concept for a tinker that bears all the hallmarks of good design, I'm not gonna argue against it. Heck, if it sounds fun I'll even support it.

And these hallmarks are what exactly?