Moonkin patchnotes

[Juvencus]

although SoO did spoil us

I c wut u did thar!

was in pvp

in pvp

pvp

Who would have thought! A great spell, regardless of niche, changed by the relentless QQ.

[Gothmog]

Nature's Vigil with Solar peak Sunfire spread on something like Beastlord, or various other encounters with a bunch of adds stacked on top of each other... ough to be pretty beastly!


I haven't tested it, but I assume NV doesn't work with Starfall right?

[Juvencus]

Nature's Vigil with Solar peak Sunfire spread on something like Beastlord, or various other encounters with a bunch of adds stacked on top of each other... ough to be pretty beastly!


I haven't tested it, but I assume NV doesn't work with Starfall right?

The Sunfire spread doesn't apply the initial damage, only the dot, so Solar Peak doesn't matter.. Not sure how strong NV is on lvl100 but on 90 it's quite underwhelming.

[Pippilongear]

A weak rejuv is always going to be more effective at keeping you up during a whirling corruption compared to just moonfire spamming the boss. I can assure you that damage is not netting you any significant gain that will be missed.

The next time your raid leader is forced to make this decision during progression: push Garrosh in 1 transition phase instead of 2 or push Lei Shen before he overloads the last pillar I'd like you to ask him if you should

a) Blanket the raid with weak heals that are not likely to save anyone if there is serious damage ongoing
or
b) Continue to push every ounce of dps possible

My guess is that if he is serious about downing that boss he will choose b) every time.

Having 2 dps options and a HoT available to cast is the definition of hybrid utility which is what the concern seems to be over at the moment.

No I think you have missed the entire point. It is *not* about hybridity, it is about the effectiveness of self-healing vs. damage reduction. Blizzard has clearly come down on the side of Damage Mitigation >>> Healing up after the damage (just look at what Blood DKs got in WoD a 40% DR on runetap for 3 secs just so they could have a nice damage reduction ability in line with warriors and paladins).

The argument is that either a) Self-Healing needs to be made massively stronger to compensate for a poor damage reduction toolkit (whether that involves straight damage reduction or kiting, etc...) b) the damage reduction on barkskin needs to be buffed substantially or c) Blizz needs to give moonkin another survival spell for their toolkit

Frankly I am ok with any of those options but just to be clear, Blizz has gone down the "strong hybrid heals" path before and it left a bad taste in their mouth as guilds pushed content with less healers but more hybrid dps and healers were ultimately unhappy with being jerked around - 2 healers on one fight and 8 on another.

[Soular]

I love the new graphic on spells

[lymitid]

Devil's Advocate.
Or.... maybe.... you just roll a hunter and give the healers Aspects of the Fox; they can heal AND you can do more damage.

Devil's Devil's Advocate-What if dps want that buff too, do you give it to casters for their dps that are trying to push boss, or healers. > Dps might want aspect of the fox at a point where no raid damage is happening and vice versa!

Not to mention aoe heals having cast times and cooldowns means they can use these once to raid heal in in the duration of a single aspect of the fox which really blows if you think about it. Resto druids are really going to be the only healers who love it for tranq. Everyone else can cast their circle of healing or chain heal and then throw some big single target heals during Aspect.

Same goes for the mage buff, it's a nice cooldown, but even if you chain that bonus healing across 2-3 mages, you are buffing the healing from 1-2 healing rains/wild growths/circle of healing etc at most. Of course it helps, but it's not even like you're even likely to use it on cooldown.

Sunfire cleave with nature's vigil is also fantastic. Just had to point that out. On beta and on live, even on non cleave fights, my off-healing from nature's vigil is always one of the highest sources of healing from non healers. Those tiny ticks of NV add up and make a world of difference in WoD where your health is slowly whittled down, not taken down in one big burst.

In regards to self healing, my healing touches heal anywhere from 70k-100k on myself if I crit, and 38-40k on beta. That's pretty substantial. I know you are upset about rogues/hunters/mages having a lot of survival cooldowns but this has been the case for a while, it's nothing new. As for moonkins, MoP was the exception to the rule, we always just had barkskin and self-healing (losing might of ursoc is big but that was never really "needed" in raids until MoP, moreso just for PvP).

I just think the ability to self heal (and heal others) is significantly underestimated. I've played pure dps classes on my alts on beta and I have to say, iceblock and deterrence are nice until they are over and then I've never felt more helpless since I can't make my health bar go up without someone else doing it for me. As moonkin, you can literally run into the corner of a room and top yourself off while hunters and mages in WoD are just going to have to pray that the healers throw them something. You literally watch your health bar tick to nothing as a mage and hunter on some fights. And there's also the fact that just because they have those big cooldowns, they will still have to use them wisely. If we fuck up, yes we have to stop dps to self-heal, but we can self heal whenever we want. I guess it's just personal preference, but I enjoy the control of self-healing moreso than the big damage reduction cooldown.

It's pretty clear if you look at any of the caster rotations that they are purposely made simple now because the difficult part of fights is supposed to be the mechanics. The new raids are comprised of tons of mechanics that Blizzard actually wants you to avoid ENTIRELY or suffer actual consequences for not doing so. Your healers are not going to be spam bots casting away like they were this expansion, and are severely stressed even if they DO have to heal classes with damage reduction cds that are just eating mechanics. Melee classes have more damage reduction cooldowns in general right now because over the years, melee has just been a far less forgiving place to dps than range (and that doesn't change in WoD). The best ranged in the upcoming expansion are going to be the ones who are very efficient with moving out of mechanics in the least amount of steps to a safe area so they can get back to dpsing without dying.


Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration with losing a lot of our survival cds, and really wish symbiosis was still in the game, but from my experiences testing out beta fights, I did not feel gimp when it came to living. If I died, it genuinely came from a sense of "I played that awfully" not "my class sucks." If I had to choose one of your a/b/c options though just for arguments sake, I would go with buffing barkskin's effect but would have that happen through a glyph. Or replace one of the self healing talents entirely with something else. It's not an interesting tier of talents since they are all just healing in one form or another.

[lappee]

...

Im just talking about druids, I did not try to compare us to other classes. Its true that other classes usually have better tools, mainly rogues and warlocks.

However im still not worried about us, our healing is actually quite good at lvl 100 even without hotw. Sure currently in pvp environment @ lvl 90 enha shaman healing via maelstrom weapon is quite strong, but other than that im pretty sure our healing is the second best. Off-heals just arent as powerful as they used to be pre 6.0.

Im not gonna start going into PvP side of things with rogues and such, that would just be way too long of a post and its really not my expertise as of now.

I definitely dont agree with you about us being the worst for helping heal, we might be the worst to soak yeah (unless we have to soak alone, aka if healing ourselves is a viable option). Moonkins still have one of the best mobility in the game, it'll allow us to do many of the fight mechanics. Our damage isnt bad compared to other casters so we're not shit out of luck.

I've been fine surviving on my own so far in to the patch, I just dont think we need anything extra.


@Gothmog, I havent really been playing on other classes but what I noticed is that my mage is shit out of luck when it comes to doing anything solo. No healing of any kind and only some shitty absorb to play with.

- - - Updated - - -

The next time your raid leader is forced to make this decision during progression: push Garrosh in 1 transition phase instead of 2 or push Lei Shen before he overloads the last pillar I'd like you to ask him if you should

a) Blanket the raid with weak heals that are not likely to save anyone if there is serious damage ongoing
or
b) Continue to push every ounce of dps possible

My guess is that if he is serious about downing that boss he will choose b) every time.

That all depends if its even possible to push it. If you're close already, then surely people will be able to push it there. If you're not then the heals are just way better.

[Cyous]

@lappee
I'm ranting mostly about PvP because I don't spend my entire time playing PvE (I'd burnout from monotony); there is a serious issue with the arms race, PvP exacerbates the situation and should be balanced. I don't know which designers are doing PvP specifically, other than Holinka, but I'm severely dissappointed with the way Moonkins have been treated in the past, and throughout the Beta process.

I should point out I'm advocating for a buff to self-sustainability. Clauses like, "when cast on yourself" are the main focus for me. (Also, I'd like Barkskin to actually do something noticeable.) I don't want to become a pseudo-Resto Druid, which is why said clauses are important notes. I want my Rejuv to actually move my health bar when I spam the fuck out of it because I literally cannot do anything else, I want Healing Touch to be better than damage-neutral at best; it's worse than a Tyler Perry's "movie" (I can't even finish a single hardcast when a WW Monk is tunneling me, fwiw). If I can't hardcast, then I can't use Healing Touch. If I can't use Healing Touch, my defensive toolkit lost a major player. Kiting? I can't get away from anyone without some serious gameplay tactics -- all of which is countered by low/no-CD spells which can be sustained long enough to provide their CC to refresh. Self-Healing as Melee? Minus warriors, it's absolutely fucking ridiculous. They don't even need healers for the most part -- they'll just kill you before you can do anything, and you can't do shit about it -- Ret/DK/DK anyone?

I'm tired of being a punching bag. My damage output can be manageable with proper play, but my survivability is never based on my gameplay. I can be a 4-year Moonkin main and get outclassed by every single melee spec. That's not fun for me. It's a joke of game balance which has never been truly tuned for competitive play.

Tip to anyone designing a game: PVE is a great focal point for content and activity. PvP is a great way to determine how much a company/group cares about the player's enjoyment of said game. You retain more subs if PvP is a viable option for the masses, while PVE is your end-game goal. WOTLK seemed pretty good in that regard. PVE was fairly good. MOP PVE was fantastic. MOP PVP sucked harder than a Dyson vacuum. If you want WOD to be a success, PVE has to be as good as MOP (it seems like it will be from my testing), and PVP needs to be fantastic -- which, so far, is like Katrina going Category 5 right before New Orleans gets hit.

Don't fuck up PvP. Ultimately, PvP is just as important as PvE. (While I'm relatively new to the hardcore progression scene -- Most of my PVE friends are avid PVP'ers who quit because PVP sucked, and they didn't care for 6 more months of SoO.)

[Deleted]

Only having a 20% DR is completely garbage for both pve and pvp. In Mythic SoO it doesnt matter because the raid is a joke, even was pre nerf, nothing does damage so it doesnt matter.

But in WoD, with no raid utility except a terrible AG/VE, or a terrible hybrid heal talent that has gone from actually making you into a healer for 45 seconds, into a waste of space in the raid frames when you use it, not having a proper DR is gonna be huge.

I very much doubt anyone is getting benched unless you are in the top of guilds, even then it wont be as much of a problem. But it is annoying to see your utility butchered along with your defensive options, while classes that are doing MORE damage than you, also are getting ADDED utility while keeping most, if not all of their defensives.

[Miraclous]

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...3&type=healing
Just a completely random fight of beta testing I took. I think our off-healing is pretty good in WoD (compared to other dps).

[Deleted]

Glyphed Barkskin is one of the strongest defensive cooldowns in pvp, especially vs. frostmages and rogues. I'm not sure why some of you call it weak. Most feral druids would happily trade their SI for Barkskin. Also Cyous please keep in mind pvp at lv 90 (right now on live) is completely broken, you can't really take anything from that. If you want to talk about pvp in WoD it should be from beta experience and not pre-patch experience.

- - - Updated - - -

@Miraclous One SP didn't use VE at all and the other one only used it once while you used NV 3 times. Not a fair comparison . Also keep in mind VE is 15 sec duration and 3 min. cd so their burst healing is much stronger (1/4th the uptime). Do keep in mind blizzard don't just compare NV vs. VE they compare our toolkit vs. SPs toolkit when they balance utility so we can't expect AG/NV/VE to do the same healing numbers.

Btw, I have a feeling it might get nerfed but if you take a loot at the DP selfhealing SPs can do with AS on multitarget fights it seems pretty broken (they basically don't need any external heals).

[Feralheart]

As a pvp'er, the main two spells I'm missing drastically are Nature's Swiftness and Nature's Grasp. I could've adapted to every single other change, but the removal of these two abilities have rendered my old moonkin play-style obsolete and lowered my survivability to that of a tomato.

[Deleted]

PVE is broken PVP is broken. It's the end of the content and we just got the pre-patch. This is where they get a good month of seeing how everything is currently working and can compare it as a before and after.

I'm sure they will pick up on certain key problems.

The PVP season has ended - i wouldn't expect any miraculous tuning for level 90 i think they will see where things lie come level 100. It may even be after the initial season start. For now i don't think you will see another cooldown coming in. It's simply too close to the start of the expansion.

I've never rated the PVP in this game i don't like the idea that X can counter Y it leads to specific combo's that predominantly win. I much prefer PVP where everyone is the same and your ability to control the game is what wins, think First Person Shooters like Counterstrike / Unreal Tournament. I remember a time when PVP in World of Warcraft was based around a particular spec. Moonkin was simply not on par with Resto or Feral back in the day, Warriors used to play Arms, times have changed but if you really want to PVP as a druid perhaps as a hybrid you could opt to play another spec.

PVE i have had no issues surviving at all but then again everything dies so ridiculously fast atm i can't see how you could die unless you are literally just not avoiding stuff.

Personally, i'm glad there is now a skill element in that you have to choose to avoid things. It's no fun to just do your rotation like the boss is a target dummy and just chain a massive arsenal of cooldowns we were spoilt with in MoP and just ignore the mechanics.

For all the talk about the rotations being simplified and there being no differentiation between a good balance druid and a bad balance druid, you might find that a good balance druid is the one that actually survives to the end of the fight doing consistent DPS. Sure, some other classes have better and more cooldowns, as Lappe says though we do have excellent movement and not every mechanic is about being able to Soak something, think Ragnaros fire in firelands.

I'm quite happy with how things are now shaping up, i thought survival instincts was fine to have as an extra cooldown but i will survive without it.

As for warlocks..... well ..... tell me an expansion when they haven't been awesome?

Everyone has their part to play, I intend to play mine.

[Deleted]

I want to add my 2 cent about mitigation. Currently on live mythic SoO is a joke - okay - BUT only barkskin is not enough even on this difficulty(!!!). Lets take thok for example. I observe my hp an realise: damn the healers need help, barkskin on. After a few seconds it fades away. Okay. Nv is on cd. What to do? Yeah soulstone. Okay reju is ticking but nothing happens - thats live. HT? No, i have to do damage, thats my job.. What is left? Ah the instant selfheal from the talent. Okay gone. Damn i am low none theless. What now? Bearform. Last chance. But bear feels like i want to die with huge claws and nothing more happens. Bearform and mitigation? Does not look like but i press the button because thats our whole toolkit. And to be fair: this is not enough. It feels like I know in 5 seconds i will die and i cant do anything about it. Especially if youre ss, instantheal and co are on cd. You just die and the only thing you can do in wod raids will be

DIE WITH HONOR AND HARDCAST THAT LAST STARFIRE!

Because everything else is shit and wont safe you.

I say we need one more cd: -> and symb was great. Unending resolve and clock was such a nice toolkit to choice from :-(((!

[Miraclous]

DIE WITH HONOR AND HARDCAST THAT LAST STARFIRE!

Good luck casting that on Thok

[Pippilongear]

You just die and the only thing you can do in wod raids will be

DIE WITH HONOR AND HARDCAST THAT LAST STARFIRE!

Here's a perfect example from our team's raid today:

Mythic Garrosh in the Temple of the Jade Serpent

Some raiders derp and pop the bubbles that give the "Faith" buff resulting in only 7 raiders getting the buff.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ability=148994

As a balance druid I immediately pop Barkskin to give the healers time to keep me up and rejuv myself. I also pop Nature's Vigil to help the raid survive. 6 Seconds before I died I popped my Master Healing Potion.

Out of the 19 players in the Jade Temple - 12 of which did not have the damage reduction buff, I was the only raider that died. I found myself out of damage reduction options - essentially I did what I could and then hoped that the healers had enough time to throw some heals my way.

Here is the death log:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8HLhzm1aX7qBGrMA#type=deaths&death=2

[Jarob22]

Here's a perfect example from our team's raid today:

Mythic Garrosh in the Temple of the Jade Serpent

Some raiders derp and pop the bubbles that give the "Faith" buff resulting in only 7 raiders getting the buff.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ability=148994

As a balance druid I immediately pop Barkskin to give the healers time to keep me up and rejuv myself. I also pop Nature's Vigil to help the raid survive. 6 Seconds before I died I popped my Master Healing Potion.

Out of the 19 players in the Jade Temple - 12 of which did not have the damage reduction buff, I was the only raider that died. I found myself out of damage reduction options - essentially I did what I could and then hoped that the healers had enough time to throw some heals my way.

Here is the death log:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8HLhzm1aX7qBGrMA#type=deaths&death=2

All the damage in mythic SoO is nerfed to hell...how on earth is anyone dying from the intermission damage, even without the buff? With that in mind...you are healing with pretty much the two worst healing specs at the moment (apart from maybe MW monk) - get a disc priest and shaman and you're pretty much set.

Edit: if you're -really- having issues, just throw a healing cd/warrior shout/rogue bomb/mage amp/whatever or multiple of them at that stage - the next stage you need any sort of healing/dmg reduc cd is at p3 in the one empowered whirling that you get, and other than that there's bugger all damage going around any more -we finished off 14/14 by standing in every single desecrate and whirling apart from the empowered whirling that I mentioned, it's a complete joke now in 6.0

[Pippilongear]

All the damage in mythic SoO is nerfed to hell...how on earth is anyone dying from the intermission damage, even without the buff?

I totally agree - it would have been better if raiders didnt derp and let everyone get the buff while at the same time healers / utility classes keeping everyone alive but my point was that out of 19 raiders alive at that point - I was the only one that died and I believe it's mostly because of the crap mitigation + weak healing that boomkins currently have.

[Deleted]

I totally agree - it would have been better if raiders didnt derp and let everyone get the buff while at the same time healers / utility classes keeping everyone alive but my point was that out of 19 raiders alive at that point - I was the only one that died and I believe it's mostly because of the crap mitigation + weak healing that boomkins currently have.

like you said 2 times: the point is that everyone has everything to get through a worse scenario except we owlkins. Its not important that SoO is nerfed to hell or what. The point is, thats the only content out now on live, which we can test some things out. Yeah its and easy mode if you have a well forged guild, which plays that shit on farm. But in wod everything will be new and a lot of attempts will be needed to bring a boss down. A lot of attempts with a lot of mistakes and "learning the boss"-wipes. In all of this wipes if something goes wrong the first person that will decorate the floor with his/her feathers will be the sad moonkin with by far the least chance to survive a badcase-scenario. At least at the moment. Don't know why we discuss such an apparently thing

Or did I miss something here?

[Cyous]

Glyphed Barkskin is one of the strongest defensive cooldowns in pvp, especially vs. frostmages and rogues. I'm not sure why some of you call it weak. Most feral druids would happily trade their SI for Barkskin. Also Cyous please keep in mind pvp at lv 90 (right now on live) is completely broken, you can't really take anything from that. If you want to talk about pvp in WoD it should be from beta experience and not pre-patch experience.

I strongly disagree. There are many abilities which have auto-Crit mechanics which render the glyph useless. Regardless, I'm not even complaining about the damage output. It's the shear number of tools I have compared to the tools of everyone else. This will not change at lvl100. (Never mind I did a lot of PvP on the Beta.) Our healing is dogshit. Our defensive toolkit focuses on redundant CC and DRs with the most common forms of CC (Fear/Cyclone and Roots). Typhoon/Vortex can't be used within 15sec of each other. Mighty Bash gets dodged/parried constantly. Disorienting Roar breaks instantly. Hardcasting takes a year (2.5sec Starfire). Have 1-3 sources of Roots.

Is this going to change from 90 to 100? Absolutely not. Toolkits will not change, so I will fully expect the same gameplay that I'm describing. If I am trained, I am dead. My best play is insignificant if I am always at a disadvantage, simply because I play a Balance druid. "Moonkins need some help." -- Holinka tweet in S13; and you know what he did? Nothing. You know what happened instead? We lost our 15% baseline DR for some shitty Armor, which was only buffed after it appeared to be too low -- no shit, Armor is useless when everything does most of their damage bypassing armor.

Flash Heal and Healing Surge heal just as much as Healing Touch, but they don't take 1.0sec longer to cast. You an actually heal someone quite a bit as a Shadow Priest. you know what I can do? I'll show you in 2.5sec, it takes a while to cast this spell.

I don't want a free trip to Gladiator; I want the chance to actually get there. I should not need be a 2900+ rated player just so I can struggle to break 2400.