Moonkin patchnotes

[lappee]

Are you saying then, that because there are too many SS procs flying around we have to often use SS more than once per Eclipse?
Then it's clear that we want to squeeze most of them as far into the peak as possible and from there on I can totally see your argument

With the test i've made on a lvl 100 character (aka my 1button macro) we're always having atleast 3 starsurges per rotation, 2 for lunar and 1 for solar (never ran out of starsurges on 20min test) while as with a rotation of 4 starsurges per eclipse cycle i ran out every now and then (more or less every 2nd cycle, rng rng rng)

Which is exactly wrong. On live, haste means you get NG more often. That means you spend less of your time in the "bad" situation of no-NG. So in addition to gaining DPS by doing everything faster, a larger fraction of your spells are cast at a good time. Because of NG, Haste double-dips on our entire rotation on live.

In WoD you'll cast more spells during the cycle. That is a DPS increase. But the amount of double-dipping is way down. If you spent 10% of your time at a bad point in the cycle with zero haste, you also spend 10% of your time at bad point with 1000% haste.

Its certainly true that with more haste, you can make better use of Empowerement. However, except for Euphoria builds, the gain from that will be small, because the peaks are so flat.

On live haste means you spend less time in the "bad" situation (only if NG runs out, after that point it doesnt matter), on beta haste means you'll spend more than in the "good" situation, due to Empowrements. Its very well comparable as its timer based + cast based system on both versions, the only difference is that live = less bad situation and beta = more good situation.

Considering that with the starting gear we'll be running 2 starsurges per lunar phase, means that with 0 haste we'd spend 13 sec casting SS for empowerments (x2) and empowered starfires (x4). Sure you can take away that one SS making it 11.5 seconds, but thats still not gonna be at the peak for all casts.

Also the more mastery we have makes haste more important in this way so im pretty sure that haste+mastery is the ideal secondary stats to go for, while crit is a good 3rd.

[Erdluf]

Conversions that were posted in early July (at 100)
1% haste costs 95 rating
1.5% mastery 88 rating
1% crit 110 rating
1% multi-strike 66 rating
1% vers 131 rating

Those numbers probably mean that at low gear levels, Haste > Mastery > Crit, even without double-dip mechanics from Haste.

Note that 1% mastery from gear is not 1% DPS. I think our base Mastery is about 42%, so you'd need 1.42% Mastery for a 1% dps boost, and the boost is only that large at the eclipse peaks.

To the extent that Haste double-dips (more Euphoria near the peaks) that makes it even better. I just don't see that being a huge part of its value. In real fights, a lot of those charges are going to be spent on Starfall, which is a big DPS boost with even two targets, and which gets very minimal benefit from Haste (no extra ticks).

[Deleted]

Starsurge and starfall now have cast time, what the fuck? Balance druid is no longer pvp viable.

Balance
Starfire A Lunar spell that causes [ 186.75% of Spell Power ] Arcane damage to the target. Druid - Balance Spec. 15.5% 7.5% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 2.7 sec cast.
Starsurge Instantly causes [ 280% of Spell Power ] Spellstorm damage to the target, benefitting from your strongest current Eclipse bonus. Also grants Lunar or Solar Empowerment, based on current Balance Energy side, which increases the damage of your next 2 Starfires or 3 Wraths by 30%. Max 3 charges. Charges shared with Starfall. Druid - Balance Spec. 15.5% 7.5% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 2 sec cast.

[Gumboy]

Perks in WoD make them instant.

[Fountaiin]

Starsurge and starfall now have cast time, what the fuck? Balance druid is no longer pvp viable.

Balance
Starfire A Lunar spell that causes [ 186.75% of Spell Power ] Arcane damage to the target. Druid - Balance Spec. 15.5% 7.5% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 2.7 sec cast.
Starsurge Instantly causes [ 280% of Spell Power ] Spellstorm damage to the target, benefitting from your strongest current Eclipse bonus. Also grants Lunar or Solar Empowerment, based on current Balance Energy side, which increases the damage of your next 2 Starfires or 3 Wraths by 30%. Max 3 charges. Charges shared with Starfall. Druid - Balance Spec. 15.5% 7.5% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 2 sec cast.

People who complain about stuff without having the slightest clue are why the wow forums are cancer.

[lappee]

Conversions that were posted in early July (at 100)
1% haste costs 95 rating
1.5% mastery 88 rating
1% crit 110 rating
1% multi-strike 66 rating
1% vers 131 rating

Those numbers probably mean that at low gear levels, Haste > Mastery > Crit, even without double-dip mechanics from Haste.

Note that 1% mastery from gear is not 1% DPS. I think our base Mastery is about 42%, so you'd need 1.42% Mastery for a 1% dps boost, and the boost is only that large at the eclipse peaks.

You also need to note that we gain all the time atleast 50% of our mastery (apart from moonfire / sunfire, due to the new change, Unless we play badly and cast wrath in lunar phase etc) so saying how much rating we need for 1% damage increase depends on dot damage %. But yes, haste is the cheapest stat atm and it doesnt help it double dips due to mechanics.
All those ratings really show is that multistrike and versatility are going to be the worst stats dps wise for us. 1% damage requires 131 versatility rating and around 110 multistrike rating (that increases the more multistrike we get).

To the extent that Haste double-dips (more Euphoria near the peaks) that makes it even better. I just don't see that being a huge part of its value. In real fights, a lot of those charges are going to be spent on Starfall, which is a big DPS boost with even two targets, and which gets very minimal benefit from Haste (no extra ticks).

Well it is a "huge" part of it that makes it even more better compared to other stats. And i think that we have always based the stat values on patchwerk style fights, as any other would make it far more complicated
Also as starfall is arcane spell, its going to lose alot of its potential if used in solar eclipse. Making the decision of its "common" usage arguable

[huth]

Haste was exactly 100 rating per 1% last build, not 95.

[Deleted]

So Starfire is back to being a 2.7 sec cast?

[Miraclous]

With the test i've made on a lvl 100 character (aka my 1button macro) we're always having atleast 3 starsurges per rotation, 2 for lunar and 1 for solar (never ran out of starsurges on 20min test) while as with a rotation of 4 starsurges per eclipse cycle i ran out every now and then (more or less every 2nd cycle, rng rng rng)

I did a test on procs as well on beta, but with Starfall. I was able to keep 100% Starfall uptime for 20minutes by making sure I also had 100% Sunfire/Moonfire uptime (and I wasn't casting anythign else than starfall,sunfire,moonfire).

On live haste means you spend less time in the "bad" situation (only if NG runs out, after that point it doesnt matter), on beta haste means you'll spend more than in the "good" situation, due to Empowrements. Its very well comparable as its timer based + cast based system on both versions, the only difference is that live = less bad situation and beta = more good situation.

On live haste means that you spend more time in the "good" situation with NG and less time in the "bad" situation without NG.
On beta haste means you can spend more casts during the "good" situation with Eclipse peaks and more casts in the "bad" situation without an eclipse peak.
Now this doesn't mean that you cannot try to optimize your spell usage better during eclipse peaks to get more out of your mastery/haste by using a lot of haste, but you're not double dipping on the haste due to the sine-wave eclipse mechanic. You are gaining extra value from haste to due more DoT ticks and the fact that it needs a relative low amount of rating for 1% haste increase.

[lappee]

I did a test on procs as well on beta, but with Starfall. I was able to keep 100% Starfall uptime for 20minutes by making sure I also had 100% Sunfire/Moonfire uptime (and I wasn't casting anythign else than starfall,sunfire,moonfire).

The problem with my macro was that it used 2 starsurges "back to back" (starsurge-2x starfire/3x wrath-starsurge), i wanted to make a macro with 2 eclipse rotations but didnt have enough macro space

On live haste means that you spend more time in the "good" situation with NG and less time in the "bad" situation without NG.
On beta haste means you can spend more casts during the "good" situation with Eclipse peaks and more casts in the "bad" situation without an eclipse peak.
Now this doesn't mean that you cannot try to optimize your spell usage better during eclipse peaks to get more out of your mastery/haste by using a lot of haste, but you're not double dipping on the haste due to the sine-wave eclipse mechanic. You are gaining extra value from haste to due more DoT ticks and the fact that it needs a relative low amount of rating for 1% haste increase.

True, it shouldnt really be called as "double dipping" but nevertheless empowerment mechanic increases the value of haste (and haste increases the value of other stats due to it).

haste needs ~10% less rating than others, yet in the start of expansion its 30% more valuable than the 2nd best stat (according to wrathcalcs 6.0, which can be outdated). Point is that haste is "too good" compared to other stats and empowerment mechanic doesnt help. Thing might change when we get more gear, but im more concerned about first tier right now

[timmytompadderham]

I assume there's an easy solution to this if Blizzard finds the same results about haste. Decrease cast times. Then increase cast time and damage of nukes in the next tier. I believe it was done with elemental once or twice in MoP.

Still think crit is pretty low value single target.

Sorry if this was mentioned already I skipped to last page missed like 2 or 3 pages now.

Returning to this because the glyph is now in

• Glyph of the Solstice (New) Your Starfall is now replaced with Sunfall and your Hurricane is now replaced with Astral Storm. Minor Glyph.
• The Solstice (New) Minor Glyph. Instant.

Can the beta people answer this when the game is back online?

I'm drawing a blank right now. How is this better in what situations? Cool glyph however

[Grubjuice]

Glyph of the Solstice (New) Your Starfall is now replaced with Sunfall and your Hurricane is now replaced with Astral Storm. Minor Glyph.

I'm drawing a blank right now. How is this better in what situations? Cool glyph however

What it does is swap two of your AoE spells from Lunar to Solar and Solar to Lunar...

So now the Solar AoE toolkit is Sunfire splash-DoT & Sunfall
(instead of Sunfire splash-DoT + Hurricane)

And the Lunar AoE toolkiy is Moonfire multi-Dot & Astral Storm
(instead of Starfall & Moonfire multi-DoT

it's a bit too sublte and mathy for me to figure out the DpS ramifications, though. For one thing it makes Solar AoE more mobile and spready when it used to be very narrow and turrety... and Makes Lunar AoE more narrow and turrety when it used to be more mobile and spready... Without the Glyph you can Multi-DoT Moonfire while Starfall is active... but with the glyph channeling Astral Storm prevents you from applying very many MFs. With the glyph you can apply Sunfires to more spread out targets while Sunfall is active (its splash radius is really narrow afterall).

[Miraclous]

Without the Glyph you can Multi-DoT Moonfire while Starfall is active... but with the glyph channeling Astral Storm prevents you from applying very many MFs.

This is exactly why I think this glyph isn't that great for AoE. In solar you only have to cast 2 Sunfires to have dots on everything, assuming 1 clump, and then you can fill with Stellar Flare/Hurricane (currently Flare for sure on dummies). In lunar you will most likely be casting Moonfire/Stellar Flare all the way depending onhow far you are.
Now if you keep up 100% dot uptime you can most likely also keep up 100% Starfall uptime, meaning that the Sunfall part of the glyph isn't that beneficial overall anyways for AoE.

However, this glyph might be good for single/multitarget dps. The reason being of course that Sunfall is best cast around 60-70 energy solar (didn't do the math yet on timings) and Starfall at 60-70% lunar. Now in lunar obviously Starfire is stronger than Wrath in solar, meaning that if you need to dump a SS proc, solar is a better place to do so than lunar.

[Juvencus]

What it does is swap two of your AoE spells from Lunar to Solar and Solar to Lunar...

So now the Solar AoE toolkit is Sunfire splash-DoT & Sunfall
(instead of Sunfire splash-DoT + Hurricane)

And the Lunar AoE toolkiy is Moonfire multi-Dot & Astral Storm
(instead of Starfall & Moonfire multi-DoT

it's a bit too sublte and mathy for me to figure out the DpS ramifications, though. For one thing it makes Solar AoE more mobile and spready when it used to be very narrow and turrety... and Makes Lunar AoE more narrow and turrety when it used to be more mobile and spready... Without the Glyph you can Multi-DoT Moonfire while Starfall is active... but with the glyph channeling Astral Storm prevents you from applying very many MFs. With the glyph you can apply Sunfires to more spread out targets while Sunfall is active (its splash radius is really narrow afterall).

Sounds nice to be able to diversify our aoe. My first thought would be needing Starfall or Hurricane in the opposite eclipse due to fight timing and not having to AC.

------------------------------
Contrary to popular belief, partly created by Starfall (maybe), the sky is not falling:

Starfall =/= Starfire

Also default Starsurge has a cast time until you get the perk.

[Deleted]

Where's glyph of the Solstice?

Also, I don't really like how they reduced the cast time on Starfire. I feel like both eclipses should be about equal in terms of DPS. But this change is widening the gap again, like in MoP.

[huth]

I'm drawing a blank right now. How is this better in what situations? Cool glyph however

That's why it is a minor. Those don't have to be useful. It's basically intended mostly for flavour, even though they may have very niche uses(One with Nature makes a nice emergency escape if your primary goal is being somewhere else.)

[Cyous]

Solstice is fine as is. Some situations will make it better. Personally, I'll use it because the Sunfall + Sunfire splash compliment each other. Hurricane sucks too.

[huth]

Don't you mean "hurricane blows"?

[Deleted]

Why pvp set bonus still doesnt work?

[Deleted]

And it still seems like CA is bugged on beta.. woho