Lets define "Fixing PVP" for Blizzard.

[Yvaelle]

Skill is not the problem, when your the only class that has to spend 75% of their time running for their lives and only 25% actually damaging their opponents and that they need a plethora of macros to aid them in running for their lives their real issues are their ungodly pathetic defense mechanisms.

Not sure if sarcasm or serious

[DingDongKing]

Skill is not the problem, when your the only class that has to spend 75% of their time running for their lives and only 25% actually damaging their opponents and that they need a plethora of macros to aid them in running for their lives their real issues are their ungodly pathetic defense mechanisms.

I'm assuming you're talking about the classes attacking Hunters as having that issue. If not, refer to the post directly above me.

[Tyrannica]

Game hasn't been fun since s11

Very true. But especially for dks.

[Himik]

[QUOTE=Luxeley;26451761]Pvp really took a downturn after patch 5.3 and I think I summed it up really well here :



Haha, nice find

[Illana]

Not sure if sarcasm or serious

isnt this against the forum guidelines?

• Making non-constructive posts
• Posting meme or troll images, text, or videos; "cool story bro", "u mad", "10/10", captioned images, etc...

[Cobaltius]

Not sure if sarcasm or serious

Absolutely serious, on my Hunter easily 9 out of 10 deaths are from melee even with five macros on my bar to aide me!

I have to spend more time firing off stuff to keep out of melee range than I do offensive attacks at them that is when I am not slowed, stunned or disarmed.

Most melee classes have enhanced speed in one form or another so disengage buys very little time, having two deterrence's sounds good but you still take damage and can still be slowed thus simply delay defeat if you can't get out of melee range. Concussive shot might get you 2-3 shots but at a plate wearer that would be the equivalent of throwing a sponge at them, I can drop an ice trap but it is usually burst though if they even set it off.

So in essence Hunter vs melee I take more damage than I can deal against an opponent that can self heal where I can not.

True I can select a heal talent but have to forfeit a chunk of DPS so really the choice is having extra DPS that is no way is strong enough to make up for no healing or healing that is in no way strong enough to make up for the lost DPS.

The fix:

Iron hawk should be a standard issue skill, Hunters should get self heals, talent selection should just be for the type, Hunters should be able to do damage while deterrence is up and deterrence should give a speed enhancement to counter the speed capabilities of melee opponents, concussive should go to 8 seconds instead of a measly 4, trap trigger radius should be doubled and flare's exposure radius trippled.

[Yvaelle]

isnt this against the forum guidelines?

• Making non-constructive posts
• Posting meme or troll images, text, or videos; "cool story bro", "u mad", "10/10", captioned images, etc...

I wasn't sure how to respond to his post precisely because I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm or not - if it's not, then I would give one response, if it was - then a laugh would be appropriate.

I didn't post a meme or troll image, though I did link to one - which served to explain the broken english if someone didn't get the reference. The spirit of the law is meant to prevent the forums from looking like 4chan - a link doesn't violate that aim.

Skill is not the problem, when your the only class that has to spend 75% of their time running for their lives and only 25% actually damaging their opponents and that they need a plethora of macros to aid them in running for their lives their real issues are their ungodly pathetic defense mechanisms.

Given that this is apparently serious, let's go over it.

the only class that has to spend 75% of their time running for their lives

What is it you think casters, healers, and the melee chasing you are doing? Almost nobody is a pure tank in MoP PvP now - if an enemy team swaps to you, you play defensive or you die - that's just as true for hunters, priests, rogues, and mages.

You might think that Warriors, Windwalkers, or UHDK's are exceptions to this rule - but that is more likely a misunderstanding of their survivability cooldowns. A good warrior will aggress seemingly when he shouldn't be - relying on Defensive Stance and Second Wind to hover at low hp - but they will also be holding on to something like Heroic Leap or Spell Reflect / Mass Spell Reflect, or Rallying Cry - to be used at the first sign of burst. The same is true for good WW's, and the same is true for UHDK's - they appear aggressive at low HP because they aren't specs you kill with pressure - but with burst - so they plan around that.

Defensive stance is too strong right now - but the principle remains - if you are running from them 75% of the time, they are running to you 75% of the time. If you think having to attack while moving is bad, try being unable to do damage while moving (melee, shadowpriests).

only 25% actually damaging their opponents

I don't understand. All hunter abilities are either instant, or cast-able while moving and immune to pushback and interrupts - the one exception of note is Powershot - and it is entirely optional - and apparently not very popular.

they need a plethora of macros to aid them in running for their lives

I'm pretty confident that both my spriest and my afflock have more macros than your hunter. I don't understand this line of thinking - you had to copy/paste some macros off a website - therefore your class is not mobile?

their real issues are their ungodly pathetic defense mechanisms.

Deterrence is not a trivial cooldown - and even disengage or the multitude of instant CCs hunters have access to can be enough to deny a kill. Further, passive defensive reductions like Shadowform and Boomkinform had to be removed - but Iron Hawk remains despite conforming to the same logic.

I think you need to explain how 'ungodly pathetic' hunter defensives are - because I'm not seeing it.

The fix:

Iron hawk should be a standard issue skill, Hunters should get self heals, talent selection should just be for the type, Hunters should be able to do damage while deterrence is up and deterrence should give a speed enhancement to counter the speed capabilities of melee opponents, concussive should go to 8 seconds instead of a measly 4, trap trigger radius should be doubled and flare's exposure radius trippled

This is mind-boggling delusion.

[Illana]

ok good to know

[Saberstrike]

The fix:

Iron hawk should be a standard issue skill, Hunters should get self heals, talent selection should just be for the type, Hunters should be able to do damage while deterrence is up and deterrence should give a speed enhancement to counter the speed capabilities of melee opponents, concussive should go to 8 seconds instead of a measly 4, trap trigger radius should be doubled and flare's exposure radius trippled

Defensive Stance should be passive, Warriors should get second wind 24/7, talent section should just be for the type (wtf did you even mean by that?), Warriors should be able to do damage while kited and being kited should give a speed enhancement to counter the root capabilities of ranged opponents, hamstring should go to 40 yards instead of a measely 4, fear trigger radius should be doubled and bladestorm's range trippled.

Y'see how that shit can be twisted and turned for every class to make it absolutely ridiculous?

The way to fix PvP is to STOP that arms race, not to continue it.

[Cobaltius]

This is mind-boggling delusion.

How so?

Look at the top 150 RBG players only 4 are Hunters http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/rbg#page=1 out of the top 150 arena 2's only 3 are Hunters so clearly Hunter class is lacking big time.

All other classes can self heal without taking a hit to dps my suggestion would fix that for the Hunter.

Other classes with defensive skills similar to deterrence, i.e bubbles, shields, absorbs can do damage while they are up, my suggestions would fix that for Hunters

Most other classes have a speed burst that does not have a negative affect attached to it; the Hunter has aspect of the cheetah that is much slower than other class bursts and where they are either easily stunned completely negating it or they glyph for no stun and take a big DPS hit when using it, my suggestion would fix that.

Adding 4 seconds to concussive or perhaps to scatter shot would still be less than half the duration of a Lock fear but allow for better ranged management.

My suggestions for traps and flare would simply make them more functional.

What I purpose is neither delusional nor overpowered simply leveling the playing field making the Hunter a more viable PVP class.

[Saberstrike]

I'm sorry but no. Arguments in the lines of 'X has it so I has to too' have lead us to PvP being as shit as it is. Hunters don't need to be like paladins, mages, shamans or w/e. Hunters don't need MORE shit. Instead those other classes need to lose some of theirs -- as do hunters.

Since deadzone is gone you don't really NEED speed bursts, disengage, freedom or even a pet. You can do what you do from 40 yards away, and it's once again per canons of all RPG logic that if a melee gets in the face of a ranged that ranged SHOULD be generally fucked.

The only thing I really agree on is traps, that buggy trash should just be made to function like polymorph (targeted, 2 second cast, interruptable) -- admittedly, all three of those (poly, fear, my variation of trap) would need a 30s - 1m cooldown.

What you propose may not be delusional or overpowered but that's not what hunters NEED.

[Cirayne24]

The fix:

Iron hawk should be a standard issue skill, Hunters should get self heals, talent selection should just be for the type, Hunters should be able to do damage while deterrence is up and deterrence should give a speed enhancement to counter the speed capabilities of melee opponents, concussive should go to 8 seconds instead of a measly 4, trap trigger radius should be doubled and flare's exposure radius trippled.

Deterrence -
No way. I hate how some defensives let you continue to pressure while providing benefits. Deterrence is a mobile Ice Block (minus already ticking dots), so it'd be silly that you'd be immune to all damage/cc and can't be slowed but still doing stupid damage.

Concussive Shot
It's a 4 Second debuff, that you can reapply immediately. You also have Glaive toss if you want another slow.

Flare
I can't tell if you're trolling. Flare is fine. In fact I'd like it if there was a gap between it being down and you being able to cast it (and this comes from a Hunter playing since Vanilla). Tripled would be overpowered.

Traps
Traps are fine minus the occasional time warriors charge over them without activating them.

[Illana]

Let's not post irrelevant data here.

PvP is balanced around 3v3

there are plenty of hunters in top 150 on 3v3 because we ARE strong atm, no doubt about that. But it's still not "easy" as everyone may think it is.

[Yvaelle]

How so?

Look at the top 150 RBG players only 4 are Hunters http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/rbg#page=1 out of the top 150 arena 2's only 3 are Hunters so clearly Hunter class is lacking big time.

A bizarre metric based on the brackets that aren't a focus for 'balance' by the devs, and aren't especially favourable to hunters (but of course, that's why you picked them). Their representation in 3's is 11/150 in this weird metric though, which is above average given the brackets mandatory 1 healer per team at that rating (no triple DPS teams). If you want to look at a more representative sample, try 2200+ 3v3, where Marksmen is the fourth most populous spec, despite being just 2.8% of global arena participation.

All other classes can self heal without taking a hit to dps my suggestion would fix that for the Hunter.

Rogues heal via Recuperate, which costs 5 combo points to maintain - which directly costs them Eviscerates. Shadow heals via casting Flash Heal - which is time (and significant mana) I am not casting damage spells. Ret Paladins heal via Holy Power, which costs them Templar's Verdicts. Warlocks heal via defensive cooldowns (which costs cooldowns, albeit they have a lot of them), or Drain Life - which costs Malefic Grasp (does paltry damage by comparison). Mages heal via defensive cooldowns. Enhancement heals via Maelstorm stacks, which costs Lightning Bolts. Nobody knows how windwalkers work, but they probably exert something to self-heal (joke about the weirdness of WW design)

The only great examples of classes which passively regenerate their HP at no cost to DPS is Hunters (Spirit Bond, 3% per 2 seconds), Warriors (Second Wind, 3% per 1 second), and Locks who sacrifice their pets (Grimoire of Sacrifice, 2% per 5 seconds). Everyone else I can think of does so at the cost of damage.

Other classes with defensive skills similar to deterrence, i.e bubbles, shields, absorbs can do damage while they are up, my suggestions would fix that for Hunters

Deterrence is a straight-up immunity to further damage for its duration. Blessing of Protection prevents you from attacking while active, Ice Block prevents the mage from attacking while active, Dispersion prevents the Priest from attacking while active. Zen Meditation is a channel. The only major immunity cooldown you could possibly be comparing Deterrence to is Cloak of Shadows, during which the rogue can attack - but unglyphed does nothing against physical and bleed damage. Comparing Deterrence to something like Shamanistic Rage, Barkskin, Icebound Fortitude, or Shield Wall is just a poor comparison. Unless... are you saying you should be able to attack through it - but it shouldnt grant you immunity - and should just be a 30% damage reduction? I doubt the top hunters would support that ;p

Most other classes have a speed burst that does not have a negative affect attached to it; the Hunter has aspect of the cheetah that is much slower than other class bursts and where they are either easily stunned completely negating it or they glyph for no stun and take a big DPS hit when using it, my suggestion would fix that.

Most other ranged classes don't passively spam snares on everyone within 40 yards of them while teleporting 20 yards back every 10 seconds - the notable exception being frost mages - who can be problematic for the same reason. Why is it hunters need a passive constant movement speed increase, when they have 100% uptime snares, a 10 second gap opener, 40 yard range, and zero penalty to DPS while moving?

Adding 4 seconds to concussive or perhaps to scatter shot would still be less than half the duration of a Lock fear but allow for better ranged management.

Why would you need an 8 second concussive shot? As marksmen your Chimaera and Multi-shot auto-apply dazes all the time anyways. As BM your pet is all your damage, and nothing can contain your pet anyways - and they respond to Kill Command through Line of Sight and 100 yard range (which is bigger than any arena, or like half a battleground).

My suggestions for traps and flare would simply make them more functional.

Why bother buffing flare at all? Why not just say, "Nobody is allowed to stealth in the same zone as an enemy hunter" - flare, track hidden, and AoE are already a colossal advantage for hunters against enemy stealth. Stealth openers against hunter teams are basically misplays by the hunters team already. If you buffed traps activate range any more why even bother having it ground target at all? Why not just be an instant cast 40 yard range CC? (That was a rhetorical question, in case you got excited)

What I purpose is neither delusional nor overpowered simply leveling the playing field making the Hunter a more viable PVP class.

Marksmen Hunters are already the fourth highest represented spec in 3v3 above 2200 rating in North America, behind only Arms, Resto Shamans, and Frost Mages. Despite their success, they are also one of the least played specs participating in 3v3 arena - which means that a disproportionate number of Marksmen Hunters who play 3v3 end up above 2200. That doesn't mean that Marksmen is "overpowered", but it is pretty much definitively "imbalanced".

[Cobaltius]

Deterrence -
No way. I hate how some defensives let you continue to pressure while providing benefits. Deterrence is a mobile Ice Block (minus already ticking dots), so it'd be silly that you'd be immune to all damage/cc and can't be slowed but still doing stupid damage.

FYI: Deterrence only deflects 30% of the damage so you are still taking plenty of damage and you can still be slowed so in most cases it is merely a death delay rather than a life savior.

[Cirayne24]

FYI: Deterrence only deflects 30% of the damage so you are still taking plenty of damage and you can still be slowed so in most cases it is merely a death delay rather than a life savior.

Uhh.. it's 5 seconds of not taking damage unless you're already dotted. You deflect (they miss) any new attacks.

And you can do it twice, so it's 10 seconds...

[Illana]

It just means that hunters are extremely good when in the hands of a skilled player because the toolset lends to that.

In the hands of a bad player you will just see missed traps, random silences and mediocre damage.

I still don't think this makes hunters OP but they could smooth out the skill curve slightly

[edmorte]

Games are suppose to be fun, so tell them what you actually enjoyed in your fond memories of PVP before it sucked?

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...

[Lulbalance]

Hunter Deadzone was a bug fix...dontcha remember!!

Re instituting this "bug" (sorry this still make me laugh as a TBC hunter) would destroy the class completely. Hunters would revert back to huntards and only the cram of the crop would find ways to stay afloat.

Hunters with deadzone where the most broken pvp class. They even gave them a stun proc to try and make them good. This of course was reverted as stun procs were already known to be OP in TBC.....

Wing Clip is gone, entrapment is a glyph, and deterence in its old form would have to come back with the new version as 2 different spells. Might as well bring back raptor strike and counter attack b/c wtf is a hunter to do when in melee............ You need to think that through.

Only one way to nerf mobility and thats through disengage.

It was me who brought up dead zone, not yav. Don't go after him for that addition to the convo... And if it was a bug (I don't remember how they classed the fix) it was a bug that was around long enough to be a solid part of the meta.

No one is saying that a hunter nerf will fix the world, but it is an accurate micro chasm for what's happened in this expac.

I'm not going to quote it but some said its super hard to get traps off while trained... If that's the point you chose to argue class difficulty, yikes.

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It just means that hunters are extremely good when in the hands of a skilled player because the toolset lends to that.

In the hands of a bad player you will just see missed traps, random silences and mediocre damage.

I still don't think this makes hunters OP but they could smooth out the skill curve slightly

Hunters I play against miss traps at (let's say over 2k ^^) still land kills in any 6sec follow up on any team without a healer that's blue or orange. Wanna try that again?

[Illana]

It was me who brought up dead zone, not yav. Don't go after him for that addition to the convo... And if it was a bug (I don't remember how they classed the fix) it was a bug that was around long enough to be a solid part of the meta.

No one is saying that a hunter nerf will fix the world, but it is an accurate micro chasm for what's happened in this expac.

I'm not going to quote it but some said its super hard to get traps off while trained... If that's the point you chose to argue class difficulty, yikes.

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Hunters I play against miss traps at (let's say over 2k ^^) still land kills in any 6sec follow up on any team without a healer that's blue or orange. Wanna try that again?

how? you must be awful