Bashiok Elaborates on No-Flying in WoD

[MasterHamster]

So, wonder what the current stance among people are.
Flying at 100 right away
Flying at 90 right away
No flying at all
Flying in 6.1 or later

I'll never understand the idea that being able to fly the moment one reaches Draenor will make the experience more enjoyable.
If anything, you'll die a lot less... and see a lot less.

[Suikoden]

Has there been a poll done yet around here that asks where people stand?

I pardon if there has been, I ain't been around as much. D:

[Pann]

Because flying is so peripheral to the core elements of the game.

Obviously for some it is an important aspect.

Changing zone design philosophy at this stage would mean throwing away much of the work that has been done. Blizzard doesn't make deep design changes like that on short notice.

That is Blizzard's problem not ours, and it is unlikely they do not have a plan B in case this decision goes wrong would have most likely developed the game world with flying.

I'm saying the cost of lost work would exceed the putative losses.

How so? Do you have any facts or figures to back this up or is all based on your opinion that those complaining are flybabies or a similar insult?

Absolutely they did not back down. CRZ technology was essential for doing those realm combinations. That was likely one of the big motivations for adding CRZ.

Again this is something none of us can know for sure. But how was CRZ essential for realm mergers, they managed to merge realms in Korea, Taiwan and China before they developed CRZ.

[Granyala]

Also with garrisons providing crafting mats, unless you are really some go-getter you won't really need to worry about "competition."

If it's like the farm, you won't even need to go out at all.
I didn't farm herbs even ONCE in MoP.

All farm or a quick buy in the AH if I was too lazy to plow her. (The farm that is. :< )

So, wonder what the current stance among people are.
Flying at 100 right away
Flying at 90 right away
No flying at all
Flying in 6.1 or later

My stance:
Flying as a reward for doing the WoD equivalent of Loremaster (Character specific).
Aka experience everything there is to experience from the ground once.
Flying in 6.1 would be o.k. too.

Then in 6.<last patch> implement a tome that lets alts fly right away.

Has there been a poll done yet around here that asks where people stand?

Multiple. But it's far to easy to troll polls here for them to mean anything.

[zorkuus]

Flying at 100 right away
Flying in 6.1 or later

Either one is fine with me.

[Pann]

Of course you have the right to quit. You have no right to have your reason for having done so be taken seriously. Some desires are so contrary to the game that all we can say is "don't let the door hit your tailfins on the way out."

In which case your moaning about difficulty should have been ignored.

[Osmeric]

Obviously for some it is an important aspect.

Flying is not a core element of the game. It is not relevant to leveling (only one expansion had flying during leveling, and that is widely regarded as a mistake). It is not used in scenarios, dungeons or raids. It is not used in PvP, except for world PvP, where it arguably had a deeply negative effect.

The flybabies would have us believe that they rush to level cap so they can happily fly in circles for hours. This is transparently ludicrous. Of course that's not why they are playing the game. They might LIKE flying, but it isn't the reason they are spending $15/month here.

That is Blizzard's problem not ours,

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

How so? Do you have any facts or figures to back this up or is all based on your opinion that those complaining are flybabies or a similar insult?

This is based on my estimation of how long the lead time is for content creation. Of course I don't have access to their internal metrics.

Again this is something none of us can know for sure. But how was CRZ essential for realm mergers, they managed to merge realms in Korea, Taiwan and China before they developed CRZ.

I believe the mergers in the east were true realm mergers, not realm combinations of the kind we've seen recently.

[DarkAviator]

It is not the no flying alone that has me seriously consider quitting WoW. The other points are just not that obvious to me.

[Osmeric]

In which case your moaning about difficulty should have been ignored.

Except end game difficulty IS an aspect of the core of the game. Dungeons and raids are THE central mechanism for keeping PvE players engaged.

[CheeseSandwich]

Also with garrisons providing crafting mats, unless you are really some go-getter you won't really need to worry about "competition."

So, in some morbid way, is the argument "it's fine we can;t fly for ease of farming mats, because we can sustain our mat need with a garrison". Doesn't that seem like restrictive develoupment, rather than a free, open, living and reactive world?

[Tragedia]

Do you guys think flying could have worked for Timeless Isle?

[zorkuus]

Do you guys think flying could have worked for Timeless Isle?

Sure if it was done better.

[Granyala]

So, in some morbid way, is the argument "it's fine we can;t fly for ease of farming mats, because we can sustain our mat need with a garrison". Doesn't that seem like restrictive develoupment, rather than a free, open, living and reactive world?

The removal of flight on PvE server is a dumb move and brings 0 benefit to the players.
No matter how you slice it, it is a needless restriction.

But it obviously brings advantages for Blizzard or they wouldn't risk losing subs about the issue.

Do you guys think flying could have worked for Timeless Isle?

Flying makes 0 sense in a zone this ridiculously small.

It would have needed to be 3x the area, which would have destroyed the intense PvP action Blizzard wanted to force by crowding everyone together.

[CheeseSandwich]

Do you guys think flying could have worked for Timeless Isle?

Well, this kinda depends on whether you think TI worked, doesn't it?

Plenty of people discovered means to fly through out the isle to meet their objectives. And even without flying being 'available' on the isle proper, Blizz still made those gliders available to buy, despite the apparent detriment that comes with 3d movement.

[Pann]

Flying is not a core element of the game. It is not relevant to leveling (only one expansion had flying during leveling, and that is widely regarded as a mistake). It is not used in scenarios, dungeons or raids. It is not used in PvP, except for world PvP, where it arguably had a deeply negative effect.

The flybabies would have us believe that they rush to level cap so they can happily fly in circles for hours. This is transparently ludicrous. Of course that's not why they are playing the game. They might LIKE flying, but it isn't the reason they are spending $15/month here.

Flying is for many a core element to the game world. If flying is so unimportant why have the rewards for clearing raids or gaining high PVP ranks been flying mounts? Why do Blizzard sell flying mounts? Surely if it was as irrelevant as you claim then no-one would waste their time camping spawns such as the Time Lost Proto Drake or running old raids? And most certainly no-one would spend $20 plus on buying one.

That's a mighty big straw-man you've built there. I do not think I have seen anyone suggest that flying is the reason they spend $15 per month but whatever.

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Nice selective quoting.

This is based on my estimation of how long the lead time is for content creation. Of course I don't have access to their internal metrics.

So you have nothing other than opinion?

I believe the mergers in the east were true realm mergers, not realm combinations of the kind we've seen recently.

This is way off topic, but really? They spent time and money developing a new realm merger system when they already had one that was proven to work?

- - - Updated - - -

Except end game difficulty IS an aspect of the core of the game. Dungeons and raids are THE central mechanism for keeping PvE players engaged.

Considering that prior to the introduction of LFR the majority of players never set foot in raid and Blizzard have stated, in the past, that many do not make even it to the max level how is the difficulty of raids or dungeons any more important than flight? How is it "THE central mechanism... when the majority do not engage with the content? Apart from it is an issue for you?

[Vandexander]

Flying is not a core element of the game. It is not relevant to leveling (only one expansion had flying during leveling, and that is widely regarded as a mistake). It is not used in scenarios, dungeons or raids. It is not used in PvP, except for world PvP, where it arguably had a deeply negative effect.

That all depends on your definition of "core element". Based on your apparent definition, graphics aren't a core element. Vendors aren't a core element. Professions aren't a core element. Heck, continents aren't even a core element.

I would argue that flying is as much a part of the game as any of those things. It may not be of value to you, but PvP isn't of much value to me, and I still don't belittle people who value it.

In my opinion, as someone who's been playing MMO-type "games" since before many of you were born, and as a software developer, the no-fly decision is primarily a "let's make it easier/faster to produce content" decision. Personally, I would rather have flying than have one more zone, but that's not the decision Blizzard has made. I think that was the reason for the initial "no fly in WoD until 6.1" announcement.

There's definitely a bias against flying on the development team, just as there's a bias in favor of the way the developers play the game (which is probably lots of group activity, raiding, pvp, etc - all those "core element" things). They want a "challenging" game because that IS their life, or at least their job. Which is good for them, but I don't think it's as popular an approach as they would like it to be. I think that bias is a large part of the "no flying in WoD unless we change our minds" announcement.

Time will tell. I think no-fly is causing more people to leave at this point in the release cycle than any other change they've made. They are removing a substantial feature, and when people become aware of that, they're not happy with it. That may be a bias on my part, because it put me past the tipping point, but I think it will do the same for many other casual players who have kept at WoW because it's comfortable and familiar, and because they've invested so much time and money in it.

[Tragedia]

They aren't removing flying, only postponing it.

[CheeseSandwich]

They aren't removing flying, only postponing it.

True, but the length of the postponment is still undecided. Whether it will be postponed until the start of 6.1, or until the next expac, or later. Following recent events would lead one to think they are very much considering not having flight through out the length of WoD, hence the amount of disquiet.

[Vandexander]

They aren't removing flying, only postponing it.

Not true. They aren't allowing flying in WoD content at launch, and have made no promises about when or IF they will allow it in WoD, or in any later expansion.

The general consensus from reading various Blizzard postings is that Blizzard would prefer to have flying in WoD at all.

[Mjau]

Also to remove something it would have to be there in the first place, and since there is no Draenor or anything yet they can't remove it either. Flying will be available everywhere it is now, they're not removing flying at all, just not adding it(yet) to the new zones.
Saying they are removing flying from WoD is like saying they are removing Ironforge from WoD. It makes little sense.