Bashiok Elaborates on No-Flying in WoD

[Stonecloak]

To be fair: There is a finite amount of content you can put in any game. So naturally all that will be left is spamming LFD/R for purples.


PvE server... *disarming grin*

Wow. You have an army of Draenei. You must be exited for WoD.

[hakujinbakasama]

I think it became pop culture to hate on Blizzard eventually. Not sure when this came about, but it spread and became something else entirely. Now it resembles an infant screaming for it's next meal.

A lot of it happened because of the Blizzard North closure.

Blizzard is a great company but often is completely off track. If I had to evaluate them, they are too philosophical at times. The real "hate on Blizzard" start with WoW and a lot of their decisions and design philosophies. This continued over with extremely LONG delays between everything they worked on from that point forward. Look at the release dates in previous years. Up until 2003 they were releasing something yearly. Then you have a 7 year break with a 100% focus on WoW. Even then, it's a 12 year delay between Brood War to Starcraft 2.

That left everything they did being a bit more apparent. However, I'm pretty sure that most "hate" these days is devoid of legitimacy but the birth of it had validity. A lot of their Class design choices, system moves, and a laundry list of others didn't sit well with players who were more than amply funding them. People don't see it the same anymore but a lot of the Blizzard hate reminds me of the Terraria debacle.

To be fair though, decent criticism was probably hard to hear given the tidal waves of bullshit tears that happens on a daily basis these days.

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Well it's not 'my' fault that Blizzard never have put anything meaningful out in the world
There's not much benefit to 'adventure' Pandaria now, you know(except for TI). That's why so many people are at Storm/Orgrim waiting for que
Yeah you can say that you really don't need 'benefit' to explore the open world, but I suppose many tend to disagree, since my server is the most populated server on my realm, but I don't see many people out in the open world

I'm not in the CS field so I cannot definitively say one way or another. However, I would assume they could have implemented systems which used a random spawn order to create reasons to be in the real world. Chests, artifacts, rare spawns, ect are all reasons to be out there IF they have use for progression.

Halaa in Nagrand is a pretty good example of this. When launched it was very popular, but as the expansion progressed and the rewards became irrelevant, it stopped being very active. This is where Blizzard seems to fail from my perspective.

[Granyala]

Wow. You have an army of Draenei. You must be exited for WoD.

I am. And I love Draenei.
I'm just afraid that Blizzard will use them as punching bags for their "Badass" orcish favourite child and totally not develop them at all.

[Stonecloak]

A lot of it happened because of the Blizzard North closure.

Blizzard is a great company but often is completely off track. If I had to evaluate them, they are too philosophical at times. The real "hate on Blizzard" start with WoW and a lot of their decisions and design philosophies. This continued over with extremely LONG delays between everything they worked on from that point forward. Look at the release dates in previous years. Up until 2003 they were releasing something yearly. Then you have a 7 year break with a 100% focus on WoW. Even then, it's a 12 year delay between Brood War to Starcraft 2.

That left everything they did being a bit more apparent. However, I'm pretty sure that most "hate" these days is devoid of legitimacy but the birth of it had validity. A lot of their Class design choices, system moves, and a laundry list of others didn't sit well with players who were more than amply funding them. People don't see it the same anymore but a lot of the Blizzard hate reminds me of the Terraria debacle.

To be fair though, decent criticism was probably hard to hear given the tidal waves of bullshit tears that happens on a daily basis these days.

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I'm not in the CS field so I cannot definitively say one way or another. However, I would assume they could have implemented systems which used a random spawn order to create reasons to be in the real world. Chests, artifacts, rare spawns, ect are all reasons to be out there IF they have use for progression.

Halaa in Nagrand is a pretty good example of this. When launched it was very popular, but as the expansion progressed and the rewards became irrelevant, it stopped being very active. This is where Blizzard seems to fail from my perspective.

I see your view. I can't say either party (Blizz, and players) don't have their faults in the situation. Perhaps Wow got so popular for some that it blurred the lines of being just a game, and people started to forget that it depended on many things to remain successful, and perhaps Blizzard slacked because they had 12 millions peoples family jewels in their hands, got too comfortable, and just pleased the community the best they could. Forgetting completely what made the game great. I'll say one thing I miss, and that is gm's being active within the community for other reasons besides complaints. Wildstar does this in beta, they talk to the community and constantly repeat they are listening and care about feedback. That in itself has limitation, but it's just nice to have imo.

[Granyala]

I'll say one thing I miss, and that is gm's being active within the community for other reasons besides complaints.

Funky Events organized by GMs?
That would be beyond awesome.

But I guess WoWs population today is far to set on running to the next epic item in order to appreciate roleplaying events that don't net rewards. :/

[Stonecloak]

Funky Events organized by GMs?
That would be beyond awesome.

But I guess WoWs population today is far to set on running to the next epic item in order to appreciate roleplaying events that don't net rewards. :/

I remember when I first played the game. The first thing that really struck me was that I was interacting with another human through an avatar. It wasn't the mounts or epics I saw players have even though they were cool. It was community.

[Dolus]

To be perfectly honest: I think something happened at Blizz HQ. It's very weird that HALF A YEAR after Blizzcon there still is no Beta in sight, yet they touted WoD@Blizzcon being further along than MoP@Blizzcon.

Also it's very weird that they went from a "in 6.1" to a "we don't know if at all".
It's like they can't make up their mind or like they get pressure from above to forcefully extend content lifetime.


Ofc it's subjective. Lots of folks have begged for a grind based non gated reputation for years. Ofc that clientel will enjoy it.
I think that an entire continent of "Yo grind mobs, yo" will be a disaster and I seriously hope they refine it... A LOT.

As for Barrens: That was dumb because I was on a lowpop realm. Farming the bosses was out of the question in week 3 already, so I was stuck grinding 200+ mobs/crates for the weekly.

Mindless grind != good gameplay for me.


I am. Don't worry. But no flight = No CE / DDE money for Blizzard. Thats why I didn't preorder yet.


In Blizzards Words: Artwork typically polarizes people. Games are a form of art.
That being said: Whining about stuff does seem to be the main purpose of the forums these days.

Something is going on....

MoP was announced on October 21, 2011. The MoP Beta began on March 21, 2012. It was released on September 25, 2012.

Think about all the content that was included in MoP. Especially, the complexity. Challenge modes, Pet Battles, Scenarios, the Pandaren Race, Monk Class, etc.


WoD was announced on November 8, 2013. Release date is known... but the projected time frame is Fall 2014.

Seems to be nearly half the content. Mostly revamps to old models. Item squish. Garrisons. New stats, etc. and the beta hasn't even begun.

This boggles my mind.

[Granyala]

I remember when I first played the game. The first thing that really struck me was that I was interacting with another human through an avatar. It wasn't the mounts or epics I saw players have even though they were cool. It was community.

Yep that was totally cool. WoW was my very first online multiplayergame and I remember entering Stormwind and thinking "Holy crap so many people!".

@Dolus: Agreed. As if half of blizzards team went with GC.

[Vyadore]

Something is going on....

MoP was announced on October 21, 2011. The MoP Beta began on March 21, 2012. It was released on September 25, 2012.

Think about all the content that was included in MoP. Especially, the complexity. Challenge modes, Pet Battles, Scenarios, the Pandaren Race, Monk Class, etc.


WoD was announced on November 8, 2013. Release date is known... but the projected time frame is Fall 2014.

Seems to be nearly half the content. Mostly revamps to old models. Item squish. Garrisons. New stats, etc. and the beta hasn't even begun.

This boggles my mind.

Ghostcrawler was just the latest of developers / Blizzard people to leave the company. As a person in a similar industry, I usually see people leave great companies (making lots of money) when that company stops moving forward and becomes less interesting. So I say we already have the answer of where Blizzard is going already staring at us.

The biggest things Blizzard have worked on/are working on are remakes of existing games (Hearthstone and a LOL/DOTA/-like Blizzard Allstars).
WOD's biggest claims so far are reworked models and item squish? Doesn't seem like a lot of compelling reasons to keep people (players or developers) around.

[Mjau]

You think it's inconsistent because you didn't read what I said in my original post. It isn't so much lack of flying that's a problem, it's lack of story-based reasons to act like we're neurotics in a shooting gallery. Yes, some people prefer shooting galleries over LARPs. Flying or not, I found the Barrens and TI boring for the lack of story - now that I did the Visions of Time on my main, I have no reason to want to go back there, because I don't even give a damn about the shiny cloak that's going to be obsolete soon enough. It's just killing stuff for toys and trinkets (not even anything immediately useful, unless you count the cloak grind), I understand Blizz is just making it clear to us they do NOT want to run an "RPG", they want a shooting gallery game.

As for what story there will be in WoD, well, the first bit we know about sounds like they ripped it off straight out of DragonBall Z (androids/Trunks/Cell sagas.) I'm rather enjoying this show, actually, but c'mon Blizz. The only major difference is Cell didn't NEED to bring an army with him. :P Oh, it's also the same time-travel concept, where what happens in one timeline doesn't affect the other.

I'm still curious when you stopped thinking of WoW as an RPG and why?
You keep bringing up shooting gallery game but really the game hasn't changed THAT much over the years when it comes to storytelling and gameplay. You still quest, you still raid, you still PVP. So you should hardly be surprised that it's not the type of RPG you want, but yet you act like you just realised this because flying wont in WOD?

[Granyala]

I'm still curious when you stopped thinking of WoW as an RPG and why?
You keep bringing up shooting gallery game but really the game hasn't changed THAT much over the years when it comes to storytelling and gameplay. You still quest, you still raid, you still PVP. So you should hardly be surprised that it's not the type of RPG you want, but yet you act like you just realised this because flying wont in WOD?

Agreed.
WoW never was an RPG. Not even in vanilla.
RPGs offer choices and more importantly consequences of your actions. WoW does not.

If he says he liked vanilla and doesn't like MoP, it's because vanilla was closer to his taste than MoP.

[Deleted]

It's funny how malleable words and expressions are on dem internetz.
"I don't want to pay for the incoming xpac. I'd prefer to actually keep playing a game I played for X years and XXXX hours, so I'd really love to have X but definitely don't want Y" = hate on Blizzard, whining, entitled child squalling. Well. It's good to have a legit reason against wasting time on civility towards opponents.

[Dolus]

Ghostcrawler was just the latest of developers / Blizzard people to leave the company. As a person in a similar industry, I usually see people leave great companies (making lots of money) when that company stops moving forward and becomes less interesting. So I say we already have the answer of where Blizzard is going already staring at us.

The biggest things Blizzard have worked on/are working on are remakes of existing games (Hearthstone and a LOL/DOTA/-like Blizzard Allstars).
WOD's biggest claims so far are reworked models and item squish? Doesn't seem like a lot of compelling reasons to keep people (players or developers) around.

Yes, it all felt like things that should have been implemented in a content patch not an expansion. Instead of an air combat system, new class and race, truly dynamic events, real player housing, etc.

[RPGcat]

I'm still curious when you stopped thinking of WoW as an RPG and why?
You keep bringing up shooting gallery game but really the game hasn't changed THAT much over the years when it comes to storytelling and gameplay. You still quest, you still raid, you still PVP. So you should hardly be surprised that it's not the type of RPG you want, but yet you act like you just realised this because flying wont in WOD?

I'm saying that they're set to make it become an SG vs an RPG; the writing seems on the wall with the Barrens and Timeless Isle, and not wanting us to fly our lvl 100 alts over those herds of lvl 91 hellboars that we really have no reason to fight, unless we're skinners/looking for something specific, crafting-wise (and having minions go out and farm for you kind of takes another reason to want to faceroll hellboars. Barrens and Timeless Isle, yes, they do tie into the story that was already there, but it seems like they're getting a bit s shallow. The Barrens? It was just gathering suppliies for the war effort like a bunch of buck privates; Timeless Isle had a tiny bit of story behind a very long grind.

It sounds like that's all they really want to make is a game where you run around and shoot things, for no better reason than, say, "Monkey stole princess, go kill 10 million monkeys." They know the people who just like to kill shit and chase after loot don't read quest text or care about story, anyway. But that isn't what an "rpg" is about.

Sigh. There was a lot lost in translation from tabetop rpgs when computer people got ahold of them; it's just been so long, and computer games are so wide-spread, not many people even got to learn the difference between a role-playing game, and mindless slaughtering of stuff for shinies.

[Mjau]

I'm saying that they're set to make it become an SG vs an RPG; the writing seems on the wall with the Barrens and Timeless Isle, and not wanting us to fly our lvl 100 alts over those herds of lvl 91 hellboars that we really have no reason to fight, unless we're skinners/looking for something specific, crafting-wise (and having minions go out and farm for you kind of takes another reason to want to faceroll hellboars. Barrens and Timeless Isle, yes, they do tie into the story that was already there, but it seems like they're getting a bit s shallow. The Barrens? It was just gathering suppliies for the war effort like a bunch of buck privates; Timeless Isle had a tiny bit of story behind a very long grind.

It sounds like that's all they really want to make is a game where you run around and shoot things, for no better reason than, say, "Monkey stole princess, go kill 10 million monkeys." They know the people who just like to kill shit and chase after loot don't read quest text or care about story, anyway. But that isn't what an "rpg" is about.

Sigh. There was a lot lost in translation from tabetop rpgs when computer people got ahold of them; it's just been so long, and computer games are so wide-spread, not many people even got to learn the difference between a role-playing game, and mindless slaughtering of stuff for shinies.

Yeah I understand it's not the RPG you want but that's besides my point. It doesn't matter what we call it. My point is this; how is that different for WoW now than it ever was? Was it ever like the RPG you want? If not and this "mislabeling" has been bothering you from the start or however long you've been playing, why are you bringing it up in a no flying/flying thread? I really don't see the connection.
I see that you don't think it is a true RPG and that's fine, I understand. But it never really was, was it? It has always been a "Monkey stole princess, go kill 10 million monkeys." type of game. So why is this a thing that you are bringing up now with this flying issue?

[quras]

Yes, it all felt like things that should have been implemented in a content patch not an expansion. Instead of an air combat system, new class and race, truly dynamic events, real player housing, etc.

Agreed. It's a tragic state of gaming when you can go 12 months and have live servers pretty much ignored. No new content to live and blizzard putting all their apples in one basket on an expansion their charging more for that seems to be limiting or removing more features than they are adding when compared to past expansions that cost less.

No matter what happens with flying or what gamers decide to do there, everyone who has ever touched wow should be pissed at blizzard knowing there is no content coming to live for a good 10-12 months. I just cannot fathom supporting that with any cash. So I don't

[Stonecloak]

Agreed. It's a tragic state of gaming when you can go 12 months and have live servers pretty much ignored. No new content to live and blizzard putting all their apples in one basket on an expansion their charging more for that seems to be limiting or removing more features than they are adding when compared to past expansions that cost less.

No matter what happens with flying or what gamers decide to do there, everyone who has ever touched wow should be pissed at blizzard knowing there is no content coming to live for a good 10-12 months. I just cannot fathom supporting that with any cash. So I don't

I don't either, but I did enjoy Mop. 1 year of no content is too much for me. I'm sure they are expecting a large sub drop and are focusing a lot of effort on WoD. Mop kind of feels abandoned.

[clevin]

I'm expecting that players will now have to actually play the game as it's meant to be played (i.e. from the ground). Removing flying in current content accomplishes that, so I'm mostly happy.

You people must have fucking HATED the last 7 years then. Because flying in current content, at max level, has been enabled for that long.

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It all depends on how many who play WoW as an RPG will appreciate one big long Timeless Isle shooting gallery, with a little bit of story locked behind a really long dull grind, and once the story is done ... you're just supposed to play shooting-gallery. Shoot the shoulder-to-shoulder parade of mobs (resembling those ducks in several rows in a small, stall-type gallery) and win a bauble like a pet or a toy for your new toybox.

I genuinely did find TI and Battleground Barrens to be the most boring things Blizz ever did.
.

Yep. And I think they're removing flying to have more things like TI. All of the talk about immersion is a cover.

[Granyala]

I don't either, but I did enjoy Mop. 1 year of no content is too much for me. I'm sure they are expecting a large sub drop and are focusing a lot of effort on WoD. Mop kind of feels abandoned.

Just as abandoned as Cata felt during the 9(?) Months of Dragon Soul or Wrath during the year of ICC.
It's normal, they tried to make it faster, but I think excrement hit the rotating blades of the electric air circulation device in Blizzard HQ.

[quras]

You people must have fucking HATED the last 7 years then. Because flying in current content, at max level, has been enabled for that long.

BINGO ! ^

Flying was hated, gamers were up in arms with multiple threads, hundreds of posts long about how bad it was and how bad it affect content that wow suffered by reaching 12 million gamers.

Damn that flying and how badly it affected wow game play. /sarcasm

Yep. And I think they're removing flying to have more things like TI. All of the talk about immersion is a cover.

Knowing thats probably the real reason blizzard is limiting flying is enough to make me skip WoD. TI and IoT were places I saw for about a week and never looked back.

I'll take general open world flight and daily quest hub areas again before I go back to TI style content. It doesn't have to be removed as I know some like it but hell, at least put in both so people have a choice.