Why is exclusivity now such a bad thing in MMO's.

[zorkuus]

Prestige is an INTEGRAL part of human life and wanting it does not make us evil, only human and honest enough to admit it.

Well we're not talking about that but about the crowd that thinks anyone else shouldn't get what they have, even if it's a crappier version of it, months later.

[Tiev]

Well we're not talking about that but about the crowd that thinks anyone else shouldn't get what they have, even if it's a crappier version of it, months later.

Yeah I know, but that's the thing. If it's a crappier version, then it's ok. But if it's the same thing (visually), then it's the harvard argument. Being a harvard grad doesn't mean anything and has to have a time stamp to have actually meant something at one point.


I think people should only have it if they put the same effort (or close/comparable). For instance, I think people should only be allowed to get the Bane of the Fallen King title if they:

A) did it when it was current.
B) Did it in the future if they allow downscaling tech to make your gear turn down to comparable levels to when we did ICC.


Because anything else is the meaningless Atta boy pat in the back trophy for participating feel-good-slot-machine.



For the record, I think EVERYONE should be able to get it. EVERYONE. If they put the same effort. That's all. And this is coming from someone who stopped raiding before we got to H LK so I don't have it either.

[Takeada]

Forget the fact that it's a videogame. Seriously. Completely ignore it. Because the distinction of whether it's a videogame, a game of volleyball, work or the 2014 world cup is completely and totally irrelevant to the issue. It's human nature. It's not something that only manifests itself when doing certain activities because you can't unhuman yourself when you sit down to play. Some people have it less, some people have it more but let's ask ourselves this: What is worth more as a reward to you as an individual:

A) A plaque with your name on it on your desk stating that you were employee of the year.

B) An outdoor in Times Square with your name on it stating that you your company's employee of the year?

If you answer anything but B than you probably don't have that very humanly normal trait.

It's not a bad thing, I for once am NOT a basement-dweller-pimple-ridden slob and yet, I do find that a very attractive goal to pursue. Why not? If I graduated at Harvard Law today and in 10 years the University was degraded so badly that its name carried no more weight I'd sure as heck wouldn't care to mention it because it would lost all its meaning. And If I did I'd have to add an addendum: But I did when it was actually good! Because obviously the achievement on itself would be rendered worthless as a prestige element.

Prestige is an INTEGRAL part of human life and wanting it does not make us evil, only human and honest enough to admit it.

You're right, in that most of this is hardwired into people and can't be controlled. But I don't think you can ignore the fact that this is a video game because of the fact that there's only one way the game can be designed and it constantly changes making old content easier. People who want the recognition are basically asking the game to be catered to their tastes, which is selfish and arrogant because most of them solely want it for recognition in a video game.

The worst part is they want that recognition from people who don't know or care about them. So it's not just about the competitiveness or recognition, it's about the desire of confirmation from people they don't know. It'd be like the Boston Red Sox going to every little league game in the US to tell people they won the World Series. The people who care already know, the rest don't and they're wasting their time by doing it. There's a line where it goes from the desire of recognition to something that some of these people have that isn't and shouldn't be catered to in this game.

[Osmeric]

Prestige is an INTEGRAL part of human life and wanting it does not make us evil, only human and honest enough to admit it.

Ah, the naturalistic fallacy.

[taheen74]

I don't think you understand. We're talking about something that was tough to get, but isn't any longer because the content got nerfed/is still in the game for players to obtain, even when the content is no longer current.

Why does it matter if Joe Peon got his Mimiron's Head three expacs after Joe Sixpack did? Did you not get it first? So you are basically saying "Screw newer players that didn't play back when I did. They should have thought about that before they decided to play WoW"?

Do you not see how stupid that reasoning is?

[ACES]

Exclusivity is fine as long as content isn't removed and rewards are always obtainable. People want to be able to work at their own pace. The prestige will come by having the newest and best thing before anyone else (for the people that actually care about what other people think of them in a virtual world this is the selling point) and when other people are able to get that stuff (like when a new expansion comes out) the cutting edge crowd will have new rewards/goals to work toward.

[cabyio]

No, you still need organisational ability, you are just saying that it's possible for 9 or 24 people to lean on one guy. ok, so now we need 1 in 10 or 1 in 25 of wows people to be great at organisation.

Are 1 in 10 or 1 in 25 great at organisation? lol no, are they buggery.


It is for the guys who you displaced. lol

The 9 or 24 people only need to know their job and be able to follow instructions from the raid leader. Also people usually don't take on raid leading unless they have some level of ability to lead or organize.

Who says I displaced anyone. There is always flux in raid teams, you just need to be there to fill a spot when someone steps out. You act like you have to be the most organized amazing person in the world to raid... you don't.

[Deleted]

The 9 or 24 people only need to know their job and be able to follow instructions from the raid leader. Also people usually don't take on raid leading unless they have some level of ability to lead or organize.

That was exactly my point - there aren't enough competent raid leaders around and never will be.

Who says I displaced anyone.

You think they would have all quit if you didn't join?

There is always flux in raid teams, you just need to be there to fill a spot when someone steps out. You act like you have to be the most organized amazing person in the world to raid... you don't.

Someone does have to be the organiser/man manager dude and it's the key thing required to get content down, especially at lower skill levels. There aren't many of them around.

This means that the major barrier to entry to raiding has virtually nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the people playing it.

Thought experiment - wow never existed previously and this was the first ever raiding tier - how hard would people find HC SoO? Impossible is my guess. WHy can the current playerbase beat it? The legacy of the last decade.

[Deleted]

Perhaps it has something to do with the new 'wider appeal' demographic. The constant need for reward for even the most trivial things seems to play a role.

[Osmeric]

That was exactly my point - there aren't enough competent raid leaders around and never will be.

The 10/25 equalization only made this problem worse. It's as if Blizzard expected 150% more raid leaders to materialize out of thin air.

[Deleted]

Perhaps it has something to do with the new 'wider appeal' demographic. The constant need for reward for even the most trivial things seems to play a role.

This seems to be the last post on a page and deserves to be read, so BUMP.

Great article, thanks for posting.

[cabyio]

That was exactly my point - there aren't enough competent raid leaders around and never will be.


You think they would have all quit if you didn't join?


Someone does have to be the organiser/man manager dude and it's the key thing required to get content down, especially at lower skill levels. There aren't many of them around.

This means that the major barrier to entry to raiding has virtually nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the people playing it.

Thought experiment - wow never existed previously and this was the first ever raiding tier - how hard would people find HC SoO? Impossible is my guess. WHy can the current playerbase beat it? The legacy of the last decade.

I have never had any issues finding a functional and fun raid team. I have been on 4 different raid teams since vanilla. I think if you can't find a raid team you are just not trying hard enough. We usually have at least a few people new to wow on our raid teams. Currently we have 2 people that just started in MoP, they are great raiders. We never have tons of people knocking our door down to be on the raid team. Maybe 1 or 2 here and there. I think its basically people whining that they couldn't just log in and be raiding in 5 min with little to no social interaction or having to be responsible for their own performance to other players. God forbid people have to take a look at themselves and realize they can do more.

[Deleted]

TLDR: Why is it a bad thing for wanting recognition for your achievements/things you've done that used to be difficult/challenging/required a lot more effort.

Because it's a game.

[Deleted]

I have never had any issues finding a functional and fun raid team. I have been on 4 different raid teams since vanilla. I think if you can't find a raid team you are just not trying hard enough. We usually have at least a few people new to wow on our raid teams. Currently we have 2 people that just started in MoP, they are great raiders. We never have tons of people knocking our door down to be on the raid team. Maybe 1 or 2 here and there. I think its basically people whining that they couldn't just log in and be raiding in 5 min with little to no social interaction or having to be responsible for their own performance to other players. God forbid people have to take a look at themselves and realize they can do more.

The plural of data is not anecdote, sorry.

[Osmeric]

Because it's a game.

And more specifically, if the primary reward structure of the game is such that only a small fraction of the players can get it, then the game simply cannot work.

[cabyio]

This seems to be the last post on a page and deserves to be read, so BUMP.

Great article, thanks for posting.

Ugg. This article is exactly what is wrong with the fucking world. No one wants to work for anything. Just hand me my shit, why should I have to earn it? Entitlement with a capital fucking E.

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The plural of data is not anecdote, sorry.

I understand that. Do you think that is someone really really tries that they would fail at raiding? I mean puts some real effort into it. Most people fail at things in games or life because they did not try hard enough. Most hurdles can be overcome with pure will. People should blame themselves, not the system. Effort should not be a bad thing.

[Deleted]

Ugg. This article is exactly what is wrong with the fucking world. No one wants to work for anything. Just hand me my shit, why should I have to earn it? Entitlement with a capital fucking E.

You mean you want everyone else to instantly be what you want them to be?

^ ^

I understand that. Do you think that is someone really really tries that they would fail at raiding? I mean puts some real effort into it. Most people fail at things in games or life because they did not try hard enough. Most hurdles can be overcome with pure will. People should blame themselves, not the system. Effort should not be a bad thing.

You don't get it - the ability to organise or convince others who are already organised to let you join in is not a skill which you can learn by merely adding "effort." It's a social skill, a knack of the type that you either have or you don't. It's highly likely given wows demographic (young PC gamers) that they will on average be a bit shy on the old social skills.

If raids fell over by dint of sheer sitting at the PC grinding, you'd have a point, but success is down to non game related factors such as your team mates, the network you have etc

[Pandapuncher]

No, you are not crazy. Just different. Some people think watching 22 men chasing a pig skin is boring. Some people think sitting at home watching sitcom is boring. Some people think reading a book is boring. Some people think sitting in front of a computer pretending to be a cow, a goat, a wolve is boring.

You do not find it fun. Others do not*. Please do not impose what is right, what is correct, what is fun on others. You are not paying their subs, so you do should dictate how and what is the proper way to play this game.

It's a suggestion. I think it's an ignorance is bliss situation.

You wouldnt buy a ticket to disney world and just ride the tea cups all day.

So many people here seem to be knocking the harder raiding, and 90% of them clearly have never even tried it.

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This seems to be the last post on a page and deserves to be read, so BUMP.

Great article, thanks for posting.

All this thread is, is embarrassing. America, a bunch of self entitled, yet at the same time greedy kids

[cabyio]

You mean you want everyone else to instantly be what you want them to be?
^ ^

Nope. I just want people to actually try before they cry about the system being against them. An actual effort instead of one feeble attempt at something and then a cry of, "Nope, too hard, I can't do that".

You don't get it - the ability to organise or convince others who are already organised to let you join in is not a skill which you can learn by merely adding "effort." It's a social skill, a knack of the type that you either have or you don't. It's highly likely given wows demographic (young PC gamers) that they will on average be a bit shy on the old social skills.

If raids fell over by dint of sheer sitting at the PC grinding, you'd have a point, but success is down to non game related factors such as your team mates, the network you have etc

I'm talking about intelligent effort. Learning from your past failures. If you failed at meshing with a group before, analyse why that might be and try to make adjustments and give it another go. These are basic fucking life skills. If you cannot manage to use them in a simple game, you are going to have a sorry ass time working your way through life.

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All this thread is, is embarrassing. America, a bunch of self entitled, yet at the same time greedy kids

I feel ya, but its probably not all kids. I know enough adults that have the same fucking attitude.

[Deleted]

Nope. I just want people to actually try before they cry about the system being against them. An actual effort instead of one feeble attempt at something and then a cry of, "Nope, too hard, I can't do that".

How much effort have you put into getting that from them?

I'm talking about intelligent effort. Learning from your past failures. If you failed at meshing with a group before, analyse why that might be and try to make adjustments and give it another go. These are basic fucking life skills. If you cannot manage to use them in a simple game, you are going to have a sorry ass time working your way through life.

Well yeah, most people DO have a sorry ass time working their way through life, "quiet desperation" and all that. You are assuming skills people do not have and find difficult to acquire. But.. I really must do this

Right... so why would I go for 50% when I can up my ilvl reqs to 550, still fill my group, and make my pass rate more like 90%?

This is you on another thread saying people who don't have gear should not even be pugged with. lolz.