WoD: Why are they removing so much?

[RapBreon]

Lets look at the only example you state, talent changes.
Nothing controversial about them, only fuss being created in the minds of players who are quite simply stupid.
Every argument about how the old system was better is simply flawed.
The fast majority of points were spent the exact same way, there were simply right and wrong ways.
There was never really "choice".

While you can argue about how much choice there is now, that is the fault not of the framework but of the choices contained within.
Before it was the framework which killed choice, now its only imbalanced or poorly designed choices within it.
That can be fixed without breaking the whole thing. It could not be before.

The only genuine argument, and really a feature that doesn't need tied to talents is the per-level reward.
I have suggested levelling duration rewards per-level, for levelling gear or per-level duration buffs.
That way there is nothing persisting from it at level cap, and doesn't have right or wrong choices.

If you think something should not be removed, then mention it specifically rather than a generic and ill-thought out attack.

Want to know why I miss the old talent trees? Because I can no longer play an Enhance Shaman with Earth Shield and derp around in BG's being a true hybrid. Room for experimentation is gone. Hybrids got phased out for controllable rotations and roles. Bit of a snoozefest in my opinion.

Sure, cookie cutters were the overwhelming majority, but small choices here and there and the ability to experiment was my primary joy with the old system. Additionally, the old talent tree system could have been expanded to be larger horizontally peppering abilities like the current tree whilst allowing bored people like myself to mix it up and experiment without having to commit to his grand idea Blizzard has about cementing roles.

Now I know it's 'bad-luck' for me because I'm a minority, such is life. But I don't think my yearning for a system that promotes non-regimented roles (I hate what Cata did) makes me stupid. I can't do anything with the Cata-MOP system, I just cycle out the best talent or role for the job (if even that) as a matter of recourse like a cookie cutter anyway.

[Deleted]

I imagine after so many years there would be some clutter that needs removing, from what I've seen we wont be loosing anything that special.

[Lunduus]

They removed: Two stats. Added more.
They changed nothing to raid difficulties.
They remove spells.
They add Garrisons.
They add new glyphs, spell upgrades and lvl 100 talents as well as giving spec specific talents.
They remove flying.
They add a 24/7 PvP zone.
They plan to add more dungeons and MAYBE mythic for the older ones to keep them on the same level as new dungeons.
They give us 2 new fancy capital cities.
They gave us a free 90.
They add MORE different armor arts (I.e. LFR, Normal and HC will have different looking armor)

Now let's do the math: For every feature they remove, we get roughly two things added somewhere else.

Ticking off "glyphs" and such as if they are features reminds of car brochures that touts "body colored door handles" as a feature when there's nothing else of note to highlight.

[Deleted]

I'll just respond to two poor creatures who think taking stuff away from me is something I should be grateful for.
The talk about secondary stats really made me smile. A piece of armor with 1000 base armor and 100 bonus makes no difference for me against a piece with 1100 base armor. There is that Bladed Armor crap but honestly it stinks of a last minute gimmick whipped up after someone called them out.
Removal of talent trees was a butchery. MoP kids moaning about +1% crit with X not only seem to not understand the difference made by 1% crit but also seem to be oblivious to sheer flexibility actual talent trees gave. I always had some non-canon stuff in my hunter's build to try out or just make sure I can slack off sometimes. My DK was a DW frost tank. Just in case, I'll repeat: DW frost tank. It was so awesome I only don't think my current blood tank sucks is when he does a gorefiend.

[Nayaga]

WoD: Why are they removing so much?

My guess is Bizzard wants to make the game easier to play for new customers. Give new customers instant 90s and make it simple and they might attract new customers to replace those that leave.

[SlippyCheeze]

My guess is Bizzard wants to make the game easier to play for new customers. Give new customers instant 90s and make it simple and they might attract new customers to replace those that leave.

...and given that we already know that the "X subs gained/lost" is a meaningless measure without also measuring churn -- the number of new players who came in replacing a player who left -- and that we have hints from various dev comments that churn has been a non-trivial factor over times...

This. I mean, seriously: they always lose people, and gain people. The harder it is for people to get started, and play the awesome stuff they want with their friends who got them to try wow, the more subs *will* go down because every person with a family emergency stopping wow becomes a person who is never replaced...

I levelled an alt recently. I have a bunch of them, and I raid at the "some heroic 25s" level, so play at least reasonably well. I have the full set of heirlooms, and enchanted them. Took me about 24 played hours to go from zero to 90, and I used tricks like DMF xp boosts on top of the heirlooms, etc, to trick that out as fast as possible. I know how to kite, CC, self-heal, etc, as a caster already.

Without that, 24 played hours is a crazy under-estimate for the solo gameplay to hit 90 to even think about the time to gear to join a raid with my friends. Someone who plays four hours a day spent 6 days -- a full week -- getting levelled, and most players are not that invested in the game on day one. Also, levelling with friends? That isn't fun, for someone, most of the time.

So... yeah. Making it easier to replace customers who leave is good.

Also, though, because they scanned macros and figured out that 99 percent of the time X is macro'd with Y, so why the heck not just put them on a single button? They noticed that every tank applies a 4 percent damage nerf, and that moved to rotational core abilities rather than an extra button, so why not just nerf the boss since that is designed for anyhow? etc.

[Barkloud]

To me it seems they are removing too many features that made the game as a whole improved to play. Given it is older game one would expect tools like this to increase over time but not to be stripped away. Does it make the game more attractive to new players? Does it make the game more attractive to existing players or players that used to play?

Someone help me out because while MoP had its flaws I didn't feel like they were stripping what made WoW the game it is (talent system changes were and still are controversial). WoD seems like they are trying to start over, and all these changes are being made because they did not approve of the changes made over the life of the game. But is a reset like Star Wars' NGE a good idea for an already successful game like WoW especially given its age?

To give other games a chance to excel. I say that Arche Age has flying. It maybe a good game for the flyers to check out after they unsub.

[Byucknah The Red]

My personal issue with the constant removal of features from the garrisons is that Blizzard is already forgetting the point of garrisons. The point is not a questing experience, the point is not a daily to-do list of tasks and chores, the point is not to maximize your character, no its none of that. The point of Garrisons was to make WoW's version of Player Housing and to say "Hey, look, we did housing right!"

Player housing has been requested for years and years and YEARS! Hell, ever since vanilla there have been TONS of topics of people requesting player/guild housing. The original point of Garrisons was to be that long requested feature but on steroids.

I know that not many of you cool guys seem to care much for player housing, but for just one moment step out of what you like and step into the shoes of those who want player housing. Blizzard marketed this is player housing x10 and have warped it into a practically mandatory part of the leveling and game play experience to the point that they are tearing out the heart and soul of player housing... Customization. With each passing update we are losing more and more. It started with the eventual shooting down of unique structures to choose from for each racials design, then the removal of choosing where you want to put it, then the removal of being able to customize and name your NPCs. Its becoming player housing with no soul! They are removing more and more customization in order to make it a force fed part of the leveling and end game experience instead of someplace to actually sit and go "this is my home.".

This is why its a big deal, its no longer "Player Housing" but now its becoming the "Primary Hub/Daily Hub" for WoD with all the management and work you will need to do there. With each bit of customization that is lost it becomes less of what it was originally purposed for and more of something that will be force fed and mandatory for the experience. Player housing should be something optional for those who want to have their own place, some place they can customize and play around with for fun and not something that is forced.

This is a big deal and I know its already too late at this point :T Blizzard won't undo their changes, even their attitude with "We may let you re-locate later" gives off the distinct impression that it will be pushed to the back like other customization features... *coughdancestudiocough*.

If it had remained the way it was originally pitched, something not forced through normal game play and something that was actual player housing then everything would of been fine. Whats going to happen is, now that its mandatory, those who never were interested in Player Housing are going to become annoyed and tell Blizzard how much they hate it while those who WANTED player housing are going to be so underwhelmed by comparison to other mmo's that they are going to also give the word that it sucks. This will only end in Blizzard never trying again and the whole player base suffering because Blizzard lost focus on what the feature was really suppose to be.

[fixx]

The point of Garrisons was to make WoW's version of Player Housing and to say "Hey, look, we did housing right!"

Blizzard never classified Garrisons as player housing, that's all just imagination of random forumers. Kinda makes your rant pointless.

[Byucknah The Red]

Blizzard never classified Garrisons as player housing, that's all just imagination of random forumers. Kinda makes your rant pointless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxR5oZC0_g4

Start at 30 seconds in on the video from Blizzcon 2013. "This is the World of Warcraft version of housing"

So... This is the point where you go "Oh, I was wrong, sorry." for not actually knowing what YOU were talking about.

[Deleted]

I know what you mean BassZ1890 but it would be too much effort for player housing, especially if not many ppl were not into it and it would need updating and more resources to keep customizing and keeping it in line with the rest of the content. It would need updates, new features, everyone will have their own take on it and request whatever crosses their mind. The closest that i ever thought would be more realistic in housing would have been guild housing. So instead of your own cool place it would be guild place. Its also better and could have been more interesting. It would also require less resources and give something different for each guild. Its an mmo afterall no solo playing, would fit better imo.

[Deleted]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxR5oZC0_g4

Start at 30 seconds in on the video from Blizzcon 2013. "This is the World of Warcraft version of housing"

So... This is the point where you go "Oh, I was wrong, sorry." for not actually knowing what YOU were talking about.

There is a difference between blatantly stating housing and saying "our version of housing". Please learn the difference.

[nekobaka]

Because they added too much unnecessary shit..

Well to be fair some of it was necessary and then later made unnecessary. Things do change and focus shifts. Sometimes what is depth becomes waste and what was once popular can become barren.

wait what? are they finally getting rid of the current garbage system and adding something similar to what we had during TBC and Wrath? You know when gaining a new level actually meant something.

Personally the current talent system feels like glorified super glyphs and depending on your class the major glyphs are falling in the same hole of why the "medium" ones was removed.

[Byucknah The Red]

I know what you mean BassZ1890 but it would be too much effort for player housing, especially if not many ppl were not into it and it would need updating and more resources to keep customizing and keeping it in line with the rest of the content. It would need updates, new features, everyone will have their own take on it and request whatever crosses their mind. The closest that i ever thought would be more realistic in housing would have been guild housing. So instead of your own cool place it would be guild place. Its also better and could have been more interesting. It would also require less resources and give something different for each guild. Its an mmo afterall no solo playing, would fit better imo.

I get the point on allocating team resources and can totally see your point. My biggest fear is that this was something that had been requested and hyped for YEARS. When they came out with it there was so much hype and so much detail put into it. Ever since they have been stripping more and more. If it had never been announced until launch, I probably would not have batted an eye. The fact that it was announced at Blizzcon and was announced as WoW's version of Player Housing that was going to put all other player housing in its place though... it kinda set them up to fail now since they are removing more and more.

I also agree that Guild Housing would have been cool. Back in TBC I made a suggestion, along with many others, about Guild Island as a primary hub for guilds. Just getting housing of any kind would be awesome but I do also wish it was a bit more social and community based instead of just solo player.

In the end, the point of my rant was originally that this has become a bad move on Blizzards part since their "Player Housing" is becoming less of that and something that is going to turn away those who like player housing and turn away those who don't but are forced to do it :T

Idk... We will see what happens.

[fixx]

Start at 30 seconds in on the video from Blizzcon 2013. "This is the World of Warcraft version of housing"

So... This is the point where you go "Oh, I was wrong, sorry." for not actually knowing what YOU were talking about.

"World of Warcraft version of housing", not your version of housing.

The devs have said multiple times that housing in the usual sense what you've seen in previous games is not coming to WoW, so you shouldn't think of it as housing in any other games. Also they've never directly confirmed or denied that the garrisons will have any function in next expansion (that has been asked many times) just like Sunsong Ranch does nothing new or worthwhile in WoD.

[Byucknah The Red]

There is a difference between blatantly stating housing and saying "our version of housing". Please learn the difference.

Really? How much more blatant do you want them to be? Do you want Chris Metzen, Mike Morhaime, and the rest of Blizzard to come to your house, sit you down, hold you hand, and look you in the eye and say "This is Player Housing?"

Its literally being said, right there, live in front of EVERYONE at Blizzcon that it is Player Housing. How much more blatant can you get? I literally gave a word by word source and you are trying to find any possible way to say "No, thats not true."

[nekobaka]

"World of Warcraft version of housing", not your version of housing.

The devs have said multiple times that housing in the usual sense what you've seen in previous games is not coming to WoW, so you shouldn't think of it as housing in any other games. Also they've never directly confirmed or denied that the garrisons will have any function in next expansion just like Sunsong Ranch does nothing new or worthwhile in WoD.

The plan is something new that builds on that experience. What we get though is anyones guess. But yeah Blizzard doesnt want just some customizable house for purely cosmetic reasons, Blizzard wants to build something that has players interact with and be apart of their gameplay which would also get more players to use it.

[Byucknah The Red]

"World of Warcraft version of housing", not your version of housing.

The devs have said multiple times that housing in the usual sense what you've seen in previous games is not coming to WoW, so you shouldn't think of it as housing in any other games. Also they've never directly confirmed or denied that the garrisons will have any function in next expansion (that has been asked many times) just like Sunsong Ranch does nothing new or worthwhile in WoD.

I am not saying its not like my "Ideal" version of player housing, I am saying that there is a STANDARD to player housing that Blizzard, in paraphrasing, said they were going to go above and beyond. The primary point of my argument is that if you look at other games with GOOD player housing as the standard, Blizzard is literally going the opposite direction and turning it into less of player housing and more of the expansions new, forced, Main Hub/Daily Hub.

But I suppose you are right. At this point I have no place to argue because nothing will change. You are 100% right that this is not going to be Housing in comparison to the standard of Housing and that as they have come out with more information they have invalidated their earlier statements.

I have stated my argument, I have given a source, I cant do anything else at this point. I put forth my two cents and reasoning and if you disagree... Well, I support you right to disagree. I am not going to try and argue this any more on the MMO-C forums. Does nothing good for anyone.

[MrHappy]

If your math wasnt biases as..



is somehow subjective.

You also forgot to add what they dont add:

1.) a new class
2.) new specs
3.) a new race
4.) new class spec combinations
5.) new battlegrounds
6.) low level balance
7.) low level content

1) not needed hard to balance things as it is
2) not needed also. Not every class needs to have a new niche
3) does not make sense lore wise and in place of this you are getting new models for existing races which is far more work/effort to do
4) see point 2
5) you are getting an entire freakin 24/7 zone with hints of the glory AV days with summons, vehicles, dynamic events, objectives. If you wanted to engage in pvp for 24 you are now able to. Ashran >>> 10 new BG's.
6) Item level scaling takes care of this partially.
7) Total waste of dev time considering people will be starting as lvl 90 even those who are new to the game.

[Deleted]

Really? How much more blatant do you want them to be? Do you want Chris Metzen, Mike Morhaime, and the rest of Blizzard to come to your house, sit you down, hold you hand, and look you in the eye and say "This is Player Housing?"

Its literally being said, right there, live in front of EVERYONE at Blizzcon that it is Player Housing. How much more blatant can you get? I literally gave a word by word source and you are trying to find any possible way to say "No, thats not true."

They said that "This is the World of Warcraft version of player housing." You are incorrectly interpreting it as your idea of what player housing should be. A version of something is different than what something is, and definately different than what you're interpreting it to be.

You are literally saying "Here's a direct quote from them. How can you not see my interpretation of the quote as fact?!?!"