Colossus Smash as a talent.

[Bloodletters]

Well with this being right - I would guess the first party seems to be way more open to a change to cs and I just really can't see what's so wrong with that apart from some parties here seemingly getting pretty mad by the proposal and by the reception of it. I personally still would settle for the tiger palm solution via a glyph though. I don't think it would matter if it would end up the clearly worse variant like the inquisition glyph. Anyways pretty amusing I have to admit. I still hope they change arms because it plays like shit.

I think a lot of us believe that Fury is in a really good spot right now, so we don't see a reason for such a significant change. I can get behind minor tweaks, like improving the fluidity of our cleave, which they are doing, and reducing the chance of CS parries, which they are also doing. I'm still concerned about crit reliance and the inablity to reforge in WoD. That's the place to concentrate our efforts, IMO.

[cFortyfive]

I'm still concerned about crit reliance and the inablity to reforge in WoD. That's the place to concentrate our efforts, IMO.

Would be a bit tragic to draw the low dps card but well I guess some minor tuning should be able to prevent that even if happens to be the case on release.

[Pua]

seems like you're the only one in the thread complaining about getting chastised. not to mention i think you're probably the only one here that's actually gone so far as to threaten violence as of yet.

When did I threaten violence?

What would be the point?

We're on the Internet.

And you imply I'm making stuff up. Jeez.

You've proposed a change that could be done to CS, among other things, and have been shown via the information you claimed that backed your statement up as to why the change you'd like is a very bad change. Rather than continue to offer possible changes to CS that could serve as a compromise between both camps you have stubbornly refused to take their advice and as such any further serious discussion with you is pointless.

Edit: Belated quote tag fix

You're talking about a change to Colossus Smash that would retain the very gameplay people say they love for those that like it. The problem here is simple:

Certain individuals won't accept that THEIR preferences aren't the only preferences. The only person (yes, the ONLY person) who's posited any kind of compromise, is me. Any argument to the contrary is flat-out wrong because "those who know what they're talking about" have only put forward one solution:

Keep Colossus Smash as it is.

Honestly, it's very clear.

No, we think its ok to say your opinion holds very little weight, because, well, it does.

In essence, you have no clue WTF you are talking about, and your opinion is worthless.

People need to realize most of the time your opinion is shit, unless you can back it up with 1.) Reasons/math etc or 2.) Experience.

You have neither. Ergo, your opinion is far less valid than anyone else. Hold one if you like. But it's like a freshmen law student thinking the supreme court is stupid because they disagree with a court opinion.

I posted several reasons why I think Colossus Smash needs a change, so arguing that I've not is deluded. We know the developers are considering it because, you know, they've said so (which is indisputable evidence) and we also know that a lot of people support its place as a talent because, you know, they've told one of the lead developers.

As for experience, it's not the be-all-and-end-all that those who want to crush debate try to claim it is. I've never smoked a cigarette or been shot; should I try both before being able to conclude that they're bad for me? Of course not. That'd be silly. But tell me: what objective claims have I made about Colossus Smash, or its use, have been wrong? You don't like some of my ideas for it, and that's your prerogative, but have I said anything about it that's been flat out inaccurate?

Zelliviren, you're getting way too emotional over this. I get that you may feel like people are attacking you, some posters do come off that way. Why, exactly would it upset you that I find the argument about the Fury Spec not being furious as being tired one?

I'm not getting emotional, and while I've generally appreciated your commentary in this thread, you're at it again; what do you mean "some posters do come off that way"? It's blatantly obvious that I'm being attacked, by multiple posters in this thread, and some seem to be arguing (as you yourself have) that because they're a heroic-level raider that it's perfectly okay.

No.

No, it's not okay.

If that is truly your pain point, then there are many solutions that don't rely on messing with the rotation.

The one that Blizz seems settled on testing in the PTR, if current alpha tooltips via Wowhead are an indication, is giving BT a fixed crit boost (30%) instead of doubling it.

This should boost crit at low levels and not have it scale as high.

Voila.

I'm sure there will be tons of other tweaks over the coming months.

Personally, I'm not sure that simply increasing the critical strike chance on an attack really fixes the cause of the problem. It's dealing with an effect. If the root of the problem is crit reliance, that's what needs looked at - not simply making you crit more and calling it GG.

This thread is hilarious. Getting upset because people don't agree with his idea/baseless claims. Thanks for the laugh.

You're right, it is. But the rest of your sentence is mired in what I now know of you, thanks to your signature.

Go, go elitists! For we are the Lord's chosen!

Is it bad I just saw a Power Ranger?

What I'm upset about is the treatment being doled out in the thread, not the fact that people disagree. Still, I wouldn't expect you to understand such subtle differences, given your post.

I think a lot of us believe that Fury is in a really good spot right now, so we don't see a reason for such a significant change.

And a lot of people don't, Bloodletters.

What makes the heroic raiding community, who are a tiny percentage of players, more important?

Answers on a postcard.

Would be a bit tragic to draw the low dps card but well I guess some minor tuning should be able to prevent that even if happens to be the case on release.

Yeah, that's a question of tuning more than actual design.

[Juni]

When did I threaten violence?

What would be the point?

We're on the Internet.

And you imply I'm making stuff up. Jeez.

But if you think I'm going to be spoken to like he chose to speak to me, and just take it, it's best he knows who I am. Had someone spoken to me like that in real life, I'd have taken their head from their shoulders - it's just not how mature adults converse.

There ya go, buddy.

As for experience, it's not the be-all-and-end-all that those who want to crush debate try to claim it is. I've never smoked a cigarette or been shot; should I try both before being able to conclude that they're bad for me? Of course not.

Bad comparison. Not even remotely accurate. A better comparison would be you looking at a gun and then saying it doesn't work the right way.

I'm not getting emotional, and while I've generally appreciated your commentary in this thread, you're at it again; what do you mean "some posters do come off that way"? It's blatantly obvious that I'm being attacked, by multiple posters in this thread, and some seem to be arguing (as you yourself have) that because they're a heroic-level raider that it's perfectly okay.

No.

No, it's not okay.

No, it was 1 guy that responded to you with facts and went through your posts and found several flaws. And when I made a joke, just to appreciate that he was so thorough (which he is in most of his posts, afaik) and actually did the work to prove you wrong.

And tbh, you seem to be quite upset just because someone disagreed with you over the internet for "socially well adjusted person", which you've claimed that those who disagree with you are not.

Personally, I'm not sure that simply increasing the critical strike chance on an attack really fixes the cause of the problem. It's dealing with an effect. If the root of the problem is crit reliance, that's what needs looked at - not simply making you crit more and calling it GG.

Making us crit more from mechanics alone does reduce the crit reliance. And thus help us out early on.

Go, go elitists! For we are the Lord's chosen!

Is it bad I just saw a Power Ranger?

What I'm upset about is the treatment being doled out in the thread, not the fact that people disagree. Still, I wouldn't expect you to understand such subtle differences, given your post.

QQ. You've not really been the most elegant in your responses either, and you want people to automatically accept your suggestions despite knowing they're bad/wont work, and will have to make Blizz focus on something that isn't a major issue with the class. As I've said before: I personally wouldn't mind CS being a talent, but I do know that tier would cause MAJOR balancing issues for all 3 specs and possibly cause more issues than it would solve. You got CS glyph now, you press it once every 20 seconds and it lasts 20 seconds, why isn't that good enough?

And a lot of people don't, Bloodletters.

What makes the heroic raiding community, who are a tiny percentage of players, more important?

No one's said they're more important, but a lot of us are saying that when you have no real experience with the spec you don't really know what the issues with the spec are. And the major issues are being addressed (crit reliance, value of haste).

[Pua]

There ya go, buddy.

Reading comprehension FTL.

Read it again. Go on. Go on!

What exactly do I say? This one's easy peasy, I promise.

Making us crit more from mechanics alone does reduce the crit reliance. And thus help us out early on.

If Bloodthirst retains naught more than a 30% critical strike chance, what will that do to critical strike itself? Will it devalue it? Will it promote the breakpoints they're so desperate to get rid of? Is it really just covering the lack of reforging? I also worry that without the scaling that exists now, Fury wouldn't have been anywhere near good enough throughout MoP... Which is a worry considering the extreme rage normalization, that was designed to solve the very problem we're talking about, didn't work.

I mean, sure, we could argue it's about tuning; but it's ringing an alarm bell or two for me.

You've not really been the most elegant in your responses either...

I've apologised for my part in the worst intercessions, and have tried to maintain decency if my barbs have inadvertently struck the wrong people.

Compare that with the continued hostility I'm seeing in return, and (as erstwhile hinted) it's no wonder the community can't get along.

As I've said before: I personally wouldn't mind CS being a talent, but I do know that tier would cause MAJOR balancing issues for all 3 specs and possibly cause more issues than it would solve. You got CS glyph now, you press it once every 20 seconds, why isn't that good enough?

And I think rebalancing is a perfectly legitimate concern - one that shouldn't be forgotten about, but one that equally sees the designers invariably say "leave up to us".

No one's said theyre more important, but a lot of us say that when you no real experience with the spec you don't really know what the issues with the spec are. And the major issues are being addressed (crit reliance, value of haste).

The problem here is that you've no idea, literally no idea, how good at the spec I am. None. Pointing to my progression, particularly when I've always had to tank due to a pretty chronic shortage of recruitable ones in the guilds I've been in, proves absolutely nothing. It's important to note that I'm NOT trying to tell you I'm especially good at Fury - I play the spec well enough for the content I can be arsed playing, but I'm 100% correct when I say that Fury warriors needing gear in order to perform is a problem that goes back to tier seven. IIRC, and folks should feel free to rebuke this if I'm wrong, the 10% flat damage nerf to Titan's Grip in patch 3.1 saw raiding warriors drop Fury going into Ulduar before they geared up again.

We're still at that point now.

We were assured, going into MoP, that rage normalization was part of the solution because the designers agreed that it wasn't fun to have a spec need gear in order to be playable. But we're still here. Now, we could argue that crit-reliance is the most significant issue here, but Colossus Smash (in my opinion) exasperates it because of the desire to fill the window with Raging Blow... Something that needs critical strikes in order to function. To me, the issues are interlinked.

The biggest complaint I've got here is that the overwhelming majority of the arguments against my post can be boiled into this:

"Heroic raiders like Colossus Smash because they have the gear for it, you can't prove people dislike it, therefore it shouldn't be changed at all".

If heroic-raiding Fury warriors had to play the spec in the same way low-geared players do, would they feel the same way? I don't think so. They'd feel that Colossus Smash was a punishment, because you could never truly fulfill your potential thanks to not getting those critical strikes when you need them. I daresay the glyph would look mightily enticing at that point, or perhaps we'd see a migration away from Fury at the top end because Arms doesn't need a glyph to function properly.

These are just a series of considerations about a mechanic that I believe is deeply flawed to begin with. And while glyphs or baseline critical strike chances on Bloodthirst treat some of the effects, none of them treat the cause.

That's what I'm trying to get across here.

And if people had have simply said that they disliked my suggestions, given the reasons why, and then made their own, we'd have been further along. Instead, the thread was thoroughly derailed by "you're a scrub, you know nothing, you have no right to even talk".

[esoterickk]

You're right, it is. But the rest of your sentence is mired in what I now know of you, thanks to your signature.

Go, go elitists! For we are the Lord's chosen!

Is it bad I just saw a Power Ranger?

What I'm upset about is the treatment being doled out in the thread, not the fact that people disagree. Still, I wouldn't expect you to understand such subtle differences, given your post.

"Anybody who doesn't agree with me and laughs at my behavior, is purely because they're an elitist." Did I get it right? Because that's what your arguments have devolved to.

You have no validity behind your posts so you now attack people for being "elitist", rather than trying to improve your already flawed argument claiming people aren't playing Fury because of CS. Several others have already dis-proven what you're saying and posted actual reasons with logic behind it. All you're spewing out now is "if you don't agree with me or think I'm not responding level-headed, it's because you're wrong and elitist and disgusting"; resorting only to personal attacks on characters and not adding anything to your argument. People have taken the time to tell you how and why you're wrong, yet you refuse to accept it. It just shows how naive, stubborn and delusional you are, which quite frankly is hilarious.

I'd say you should all be ashamed of yourselves, but I doubt any of you really have the self-awareness to manage it. Hell, I fully expect the moderators to completely look over what's gone on in this thread despite it having crossed the line several times. But that's cool, as you are now all aware, I'm comfortable arguing with each and every one of you. I've been impressed by nobody.

But what a sad state the world is in when common courtesy is considered superfluous when compared to a laughable pissing contest on the Internet.

Enjoy defining your lives by the numbers on an armoury page.

Peace.

You're far too focused on the people who are saying it/how they're saying it, rather than what they're actually saying. All the while holding a delusional view about the validity of your argument and view on anyone who doesn't agree with you/adhere by your expected behavior. Didn't you already say your bit and say your goodbyes? You're far too emotionally invested in this thread and it shows incrementally in each of your posts.

My care towards this entire subject and your posts doesn't extend much beyond that, I just find people like you absolutely hilarious. ^_^

Best of luck with the rest of this thread.

[Pua]

People have taken the time to tell you how and why you're wrong, yet you refuse to accept it. It just shows how naive, stubborn and delusional you are, which quite frankly is hilarious.

The only "hilarious" thing is that you probably believe this. Calling someone you've never met "naive, stubborn and delusional" is so detached from reality, my pigeon-holing of you earlier could only be right.

I'm begging you - don't equate online life to real life. You're in for something of a shock if you do.

You're far too focused on the people who are saying it/how they're saying it, rather than what they're actually saying.

Well, there's a reason for that - and a simple one.

Common courtesy is a perfectly reasonable expectation. You see, that's how life works outside your bedroom door; I promise.

Didn't you already say your bit and say your goodbyes?

Projecting what you want to happen won't make it so.

My care towards this entire subject and your posts doesn't extend much beyond that, I just find people like you absolutely hilarious. ^_^

But you cared enough to try and dress me down, again, and then try to dehumanize me with "people like you".

You've no idea what I'm like. Not the slightest clue, sir. The fact you think that you do isn't hilarious; it's actually very, very sad.

Best of luck with the rest of this thread.

Thanks!

[Juni]

Reading comprehension FTL.

Read it again. Go on. Go on!

What exactly do I say? This one's easy peasy, I promise.

You're saying that if he had stood in front of you IRL you would've beaten his ass. Which is a threat.

And I certainly do apologize if my english isn't perfect as im not an american/brit, but thank you for pointing that out though. Very grown of you. But at least it's good enough to realize that ure butthurt because your ideas weren't as well-received as you wished for them to be.

If Bloodthirst retains naught more than a 30% critical strike chance, what will that do to critical strike itself? Will it devalue it? Will it promote the breakpoints they're so desperate to get rid of? Is it really just covering the lack of reforging? I also worry that without the scaling that exists now, Fury wouldn't have been anywhere near good enough throughout MoP... Which is a worry considering the extreme rage normalization, that was designed to solve the very problem we're talking about, didn't work.

I mean, sure, we could argue it's about tuning; but it's ringing an alarm bell or two for me.

What breakpoints? There are no breakpoints until you get like 53% crit raidbuffed which we can't get (I'm 580 and sitting on 50% raidbuffed), and after that crit is still valuable.

And yes, I believe crit will lose some of it's value relative to the other 2 secondaries (depending on talent/glyph choices). Collision has already shown this.

I've apologised for my part in the worst intercessions, and have tried to maintain decency if my barbs have inadvertently struck the wrong people.

Compare that with the continued hostility I'm seeing in return, and (as erstwhile hinted) it's no wonder the community can't get along.

Hostility = disagreeing with you and telling you why? ".. have tried to maintain decency", but you haven't at maintained decency. AT ALL.
And I get along with everyone on these forums. I have had no major issues with anyone.. until now.

And I think rebalancing is a perfectly legitimate concern - one that shouldn't be forgotten about, but one that equally sees the designers invariably say "leave up to us".

Sure. Rebalancing is fine. But a tier = 3 talents. 1 of them being CS, Blizz would have to make up 2 more, all those 3 will significantly change the warrior rotation (as CS is a huuuge part of the current rotation, one would have to assume that the 2 two would contribute SOMEWHAT the same way) and they all have to be within a few percentages (1-2%, and even then only the strongest would be picked by most people) of each other for all 3 specs. If you see to fail how that's a HUGE issue with your proposal then that's on you.

The problem here is that you've no idea, literally no idea, how good at the spec I am. None. Pointing to my progression, particularly when I've always had to tank due to a pretty chronic shortage of recruitable ones in the guilds I've been in, proves absolutely nothing. It's important to note that I'm NOT trying to tell you I'm especially good at Fury - I play the spec well enough for the content I can be arsed playing, but I'm 100% correct when I say that Fury warriors needing gear in order to perform is a problem that goes back to tier seven.

I don't feel like talking about you at all. But I see you still keep pushing the subject of "warriors needing gear to be viable" when you've been told about 10 times already that's being addressed and it already has to some degree with the static crit on bt and us seeing greater value from haste aswell, meaning that having haste items won't be as punishing as it is now, which will help towards not being able to reforge. Just stop with the "warriors need gear to be viable". We know, Blizz knows and we have experienced the issues ourselves, and they're addressing the issue.

If heroic-raiding Fury warriors had to play the spec in the same way low-geared players do, would they feel the same way? I don't think so. They'd feel that Colossus Smash was a punishment, because you could never truly fulfill your potential thanks to not getting those critical strikes when you need them. I daresay the glyph would look mightily enticing at that point, or perhaps we'd see a migration away from Fury at the top end because Arms doesn't need a glyph to function properly.

What if I told you that we didn't start this expansion with 575+ ilvl? You make the assumption that heroic raiders are unable to see that fury has low ilvl issues, which by our statements in other threads and concerns about crit reliance clearly shows that we're not. And seeing as I have played this entire expansion as a warrior and CS still wouldn't be the issue. Lack of RB procs would be the issue, so if anything I'd want for Blizz to give BT a static 40-50% crit chance to make the spec less spikey outside of cds. And guess what Blizz did. They gave us 30% static crit (which imo isn't enough to remain viable throughout the entire expansion of WoD, but it's a beginning and really easy to change). And now you're also getting the glyph, so just stop complaining when it's addressed, but I guess the real issue is that it's not being changed the way you want, that's what I suspect from your posts at least. And just to put it out there: CS is not the reason fury feels painful at lower ilvls.

And if people had have simply said that they disliked my suggestions, given the reasons why, and then made their own, we'd have been further along. Instead, the thread was thoroughly derailed by "you're a scrub, you know nothing, you have no right to even talk".

Which has been done 2-3-4 times by now, but u're just calling it people being "elitist" or "lacking social ability".

- - - Updated - - -

The only "hilarious" thing is that you probably believe this. Calling someone you've never met "naive, stubborn and delusional" is so detached from reality, my pigeon-holing of you earlier could only be right.

I'm begging you - don't equate online life to real life. You're in for something of a shock if you do.

This is absolutely hilarious coming from you. Holy shit. Thank you for the laughs, they were absolutely fantastic:

What a tragic, lonely creature

Despite your childish gibberish, it's pretty clear you know what you're talking about so I shan't stoop to your mode of anti-social behaviour.

Just dry your eyes, wipe your nose and read the post properly, sweetie.

The leet warriors who make life harder for themselves can masturbate over their monitors and ejaculate on the pixels of noobs as they do more deeps than them!

You must live a very sad existence.

You're very easily impressed.

Get a girlfriend.

It's scary how poorly developed some people are when it comes to basic courtesy and/or social skills.

I blame the parents.

The ones, I'm not saying who, some people, I'm not saying who, probably still live with... But I'm not saying who.

Then I even excluded all of your sarcastic comments and only took the insults.

[Pua]

You're saying that if he had stood in front of you IRL you would've beaten his ass. Which is a threat.

No, I didn't.

And I certainly do apologize if my english isn't perfect as im not an american/brit, but thank you for pointing that out though. Very grown of you.

Ah, the old "my English isn't great" when you converse in if fluently.

Nice try.

And yes, I believe crit will lose some of it's value relative to the other 2 secondaries (depending on talent/glyph choices). Collision has already shown this.

That's what we're talking about.

Hostility = disagreeing with you and telling you why? ".. have tried to maintain decency", but you haven't at maintained decency. AT ALL.
And I get along with everyone on these forums. I have had no major issues with anyone.. until now.

Go read Collision's first post to me. If you think that's perfectly okay, and a way you'd speak to someone you met in the street you disagreed with, then you don't live in the real world. Life is going to be difficult for you, I'm afraid.

Sure. Rebalancing is fine. But a tier = 3 talents. 1 of them being CS, Blizz would have to make up 2 more, all those 3 will significantly change the warrior rotation (as CS is a huuuge part of the current rotation, one would have to assume that the 2 two would contribute SOMEWHAT the same way) and they all have to be within a few percentages (1-2%, and even then only the strongest would be picked by most people) of each other for all 3 specs. If you see to fail how that's a HUGE issue with your proposal then that's on you.

I've already said it's a significant issue. Read what is being said, it's honestly not that hard.

However, you do need to be careful when you say "most people" because that doesn't mean "heroic raiders". They're a minority, and it's unfortunate that they don't realise most players are not particularly interested in the 1/2%.

Just stop with the "warriors need gear to be viable". We know, Blizz knows and we have experienced the issues ourselves, and they're addressing the issue.

I was talking about the interdependence between gearing and Colossus Smash in the Fury rotation. Did you just skip over that bit as well?

...but I guess the real issue is that it's not being changed the way you want, that's what I suspect from your posts at least.

Erm, yeah. I think that's a pretty fair criticism, actually.

Then I even excluded all of your sarcastic comments and purely the insults.

They weren't insults.

They were observations based on the behaviour patterns we've seen up until now in this thread. I accept that certain observations could certainly be dispersed upon myself but, to date, I'm the only one who's been willing to apologise for my part in the derailing of this argument; even though I didn't start it.

[Darkfriend]

Guys, stop feeding the troll. He's either that or too stupid to reason with, so lets just not waste our time.

[Pua]

Guys, stop feeding the troll. He's either that or too stupid to reason with, so lets just not waste our time.

Indeed.

Let's not.

[Vulgrym]

Guys, stop feeding the troll. He's either that or too stupid to reason with, so lets just not waste our time.

Realized that after his last comment on Blizz's current approach to crit reliance in alpha.

He's not interested in anything other than building more levels on his house of cards.

[CollisionTD]

I apologize for my previous post, Zellviren. I was about to go to sleep after being awake for 36 hours, and unleashed 2-3 years of frustration built up from hearing people complain about colossus smash. I hope you understand that my problem with you isn't personal, you just happened to be the person who was in the crosshairs when I enraged IRL.

Let me re-phrase my argument, so that we can maintain a bit of civility. I'll post a better reply in a few hours after I've had some breakfast and such.

[Pua]

I apologize for my previous post, Zellviren. I was about to go to sleep after being awake for 36 hours, and unleashed 2-3 years of frustration built up from hearing people complain about colossus smash. I hope you understand that my problem with you isn't personal, you just happened to be the person who was in the crosshairs when I enraged IRL.

Let me re-phrase my argument, so that we can maintain a bit of civility. I'll post a better reply in a few hours after I've had some breakfast and such.

Thank you.

I accept your apology, and hope you'll accept mine for continuing a needless intercession. If you'd like to continue the discussion I'd be more than happy to, but what say you just make a few edits to your original and we ask one of the moderators to clean this thread up?

It could be doing with it.

[meteo]

Now hug each other and we can finally drink beer again while discussing the newest beard styling tips from warrior monthly

[CollisionTD]

Thank you.

I accept your apology, and hope you'll accept mine for continuing a needless intercession. If you'd like to continue the discussion I'd be more than happy to, but what say you just make a few edits to your original and we ask one of the moderators to clean this thread up?

It could be doing with it.

That's fine with me. I'll go ahead and edit/delete it.

[Trubo]

You're talking about a change to Colossus Smash that would retain the very gameplay people say they love for those that like it. The problem here is simple:

Certain individuals won't accept that THEIR preferences aren't the only preferences. The only person (yes, the ONLY person) who's posited any kind of compromise, is me. Any argument to the contrary is flat-out wrong because "those who know what they're talking about" have only put forward one solution:

Keep Colossus Smash as it is.

Honestly, it's very clear.

Except by making CS a talented ability means it removes a possible talent choice in a talent tier. Also, it becomes possible that CS is no longer the viable talent choice to go. Since you want to forgo using CS why not just introduce a talent that changes how CS works but keep CS as it currently exists baseline? Seems to me that's far better in keeping both parties happy.

Edit: I'm still waiting on the hard evidence that you apparently have that lets you argue that the majority of Warriors hate CS. Until then I will work off the assumption that only the vocal minority dislike CS and that for everyone else CS is fine mechanically.

[Eranthe]

As someone who generally hates Colossus Smash, and who thinks it's a large part of why players don't play Fury anymore

please provide some sort of evidence that a fewer number of players play fury than they did before colossus smash. otherwise, your statement is not credible.

For me, I think this is the most elegant solution to an attack that was something of a busted flush to begin with. We shouldn't pretend Colossus Smash doesn't have a chequered history because, frankly, we know it does. It was introduced in Cataclysm, giving warriors an ArP mechanic in the expansion after ArP was removed as a troublesome statistic, and Blizzard have essentially failed to balance it properly ever since; particularly in PvP.

I do not agree that colossus smash has any balancing concerns. they were resolved when they split the pvp and pve versions of the ability, which was at least a year ago. there have been no balancing issues with colossus smash for a long time now. aside from that, colossus smash and ArP had problems for entirely different reasons. the reason ArP wasn't a desirable stat in blizzard's eyes was: it was just another ability that made your attacks hit harder (str did the same thing in a different way) and there was some complicated math to figure out which point you needed to switch to full ArP gems.

Colossus smash was hard to balance because they didn't want warriors to be able to nuke someone down in 2 seconds in pvp, but they wanted that burst window playstyle in pve.

to recap: ArP removed because it was hard to understand and it was redundant with strength, colossus smash nerfed because it would have been too strong in pvp and too weak in pve otherwise.

Starting with the first consideration, it's true that Fury and Arms would need something with which to fill the gap that's been left behind. Luckily, we can look back at warriors pre-CS to find the simplest answers. Fury could see Whirlwind replace Colossus Smash, with its rage cost and damage re-tuned in order to make it work while Arms could see Sudden Death proc Execute rather than Colossus Smash, effectively being a direct replacement in the rotation.

So warriors would go back to old style strong single target, REALLY strong cleave while losing no single target damage. I'd be okay with that except for a couple things. I would probably get bored with a rotation that requires no thought. spend raging blow charges as you get them, bloodthirst on cooldown, whirlwind when that isn't up. There isn't any thought required. I could be okay with this if it was a choice.

But the second concern is, on any fight with aoe, warriors suddenly become the best class in the game for dps. we would be able to aoe without changing our rotation at all. this would be fine with me, but i understand why blizzard doesn't want us to get free aoe baked into our rotation. it would be too strong compared to other classes. it would be hard to tune the numbers such that we're good on single target but not too good on aoe or vice versa.

So far, so good.

The second issue is potentially more complicated but, actually, it needn't be. If Colossus Smash was taken as a talent for tanks, what would be the net result? Well, not a lot. The Protection rotation is hardly overbearing as it is, and Colossus Smash could potentially provide an additional damage boost that wouldn't necessarily be difficult to tune.

This is the part of the idea i have the least amount of problems with. It would have very little effect on prot since they're going to tune the numbers anyway. It would just make it so that prot would time its' hardest hitting abilities to happen during csmash, but since they don't have anything specifically designed to interact with colossus smash, it would feel weird or they'd need to change the rotation a bit.

also it would encourage tanks to spend the rage they need for active mitigation on damage (which may or may not be a good gameplay change, not really sure.)

A wider issue, and arguably a secondary one, is what tier Colossus Smash should go onto. It's difficult to find an appropriate tier, because we're talking about a rotational attack which is something that doesn't necessarily fit in any of the current tiers. To me, that implies a need for an entirely new tier in order to make the choice compelling. In order to free up a tier, here's the route I'd take:

Tier 1 (15): Juggernaut, Double-Time, Warbringer
Tier 2 (30): Enraged Regeneration, Second Wind, Impending Victory
Tier 3 (45): Storm Bolt, Shockwave, Dragon Roar
Tier 4 (60): Mass Spell Reflection, Safeguard, Vigilance
Tier 5 (75): Avatar, Bladestorm, Ignite Weapon/Gladiator's Resolve

In short, I've removed the tier including Staggering Shout, Piercing Howl and Disrupting Shout and replaced Bloodbath with Ignite Weapon/Gladiator's Resolve. This is because I'd prefer to see Piercing Howl as baseline, and warriors don't need either Staggering or Disrupting Shout at all with Pummel and Intimidating Shout as baseline. I've replaced Bloodbath because Ignite Weapon is a DPS increase, similar to Avatar and Bladestorm, while Gladiator's Resolve should arguably come in before level 100 to give players a chance to learn it before end game.

I do not like the idea of removing bloodbath and replacing it with ignite weapon. i don't particularly like the idea of bloodbath anyway, but i don't like ignite weapon either. avatar in its watered down form is pretty lame too, so this talent tier would be pretty meh for me. I don't use staggering shout or disrupting shout either, but i know a lot of other warriors do, and you've just decided to take it away from them because you don't think they need it. i think that's a little unfair. I also don't think you need to give players gladiator's resolve early to let them learn how to play it. it would feel like a pretty cool reward to hit level 100 and finally get to use that sweet new ability.

That leaves our tier 6 talents, at level 100, for an entirely new tier that includes the following:

Colossus Smash: Smashes a target for 175% weapon damage plus 2218 and weakens their defenses, allowing your attacks to bypass 100% of their armor for 6 sec, and causes the Physical Vulnerability effect on the target.

Rend: Wounds the target causing them to bleed for X damage plus an additional Y, based on weapon damage, over 18 sec. Ignores armor.

Now, these are two rotational attacks for those that like them - Colossus Smash can work two ways thanks to the glyph, and Rend making a comeback would make a lot of players happy because I, and a lot of people I know, really liked it. Hell, glyphs could be used to make it even more interesting. However, it's worth noting that we've already replaced the rotational talents with Whirlwind and Execute respectively; as a result, the third talent on this tier should be something passive so that those who don't want another attack don't need one. I offer this:

The devs took out rend because there's not a lot of compelling gameplay from it. keep it up on your target and that's it. i didn't (and still don't) see any problem with it, but i would really be excited about picking rend back up if it was just a bleed that had no other effect on our gameplay. seems more like a class ability than a talent, since talents are supposed to feel like meaningful choices.

Lambs to the Slaughter: Your Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst and Shield Slam cause the Slaughter effect, which increases the damage of your Overpower, Wild Strike and Revenge by 25%. Stacks twice. Lasts 18 sec.

passive damage increases, sweet. this is exactly why they removed the old talent trees and put in the new ones, only slightly more exciting since it only lasts 18 seconds. not to mention, you put it on wild strike so that's going to do weird things to the rotation.

So, now we have the passive DPS increase for those that don't want another rotational attack, while retaining Colossus Smash gameplay for the players that like it, bringing back Rend for those who miss it, and providing a bit more depth to the potential of Gladiator's Resolve.

you ripped the heroic raiders a new one for suggesting that the game should be designed for such a small percentage of the population. what population of warriors do you think are hoping for rend to make a comeback?

Clearly, my tuning numbers would need fixed but I think this is a pretty good solution to what I've already mentioned, while also sexing up a talent tree that, frankly, isn't very interesting.

you are vastly underestimating the amount of tuning that would need to be done to make sure that colossus smash was turned into a talent, usable by prot, put into a talent tree with 2 other rotational options and needed to be balanced for 3 specs, pve and pvp and leveling. also i do not agree the talent tree is uninteresting. it has a few problems, but otherwise there's a lot more meaningful choices than some classes.

What do you guys think?

i do not like the idea of making colossus smash a talent, although i could live with it. i don't know how many players stopped playing fury because of colossus smash, but then again, i don't think anyone does know.

[Twansition]

And a lot of people don't, Bloodletters.

What makes the heroic raiding community, who are a tiny percentage of players, more important?

People will always disagree. Your proposed solution in no way preserves how colossus smash is now. You can't do it. If a talent is better, you pick it. End of story.

With that in mind, I would tend to side with the small percentage heroic raiding crowd. People who have played the spec extensively at a high level generally know what is best for it. As mentioned already, Blizzard has provided 2 alternatives already in the form of ignite weapon and the glyph of colossus smash. I can’t see a reason to justify ruining the spec.

[ChristopherD87]

Thought I posted lol but guess it didn't...so I know I'm a noob warrior lol, played it in BC but stopped at wrath and just decided to lvl one, lvl 84 right now...but have heroic soo exp on my mage and we had 2 warriors in out guild...both sucked lol. But it seems to me in my opinion that cs is great, good players know when/how to use it and what to do during a cs window. But bad warriors pretty much just push whatever button lights up lol. Like I said I'm no expert but that's my view on it. I like it but think the glyph that comes out in wod will be good for the longer duration.

Again, not saying either way is wrong or right just from what I have seen or played. But still not 100% on what people thinks wrong with cs! I like it when or if u know how to use it correctly...

But want to thank op for not just saying this ability is stupid, get rid of it lol. At least he come up with some ideas weather good or bad