Hammer of Wrath and Gap Closer

[odin021]

Hammer of Wrath (20s Cool Down)
30yd Range 3 Holy Power

Deals x damage to the target - Benefits from Haste
- maybe deal 20% of the damage over 5s to fill that DoT gap people see to want
- if we aren't given a better gap closer, make it mini-stun. 1.5s stun (like charge). Pretty Reasonable for a 20s CD
- alternative idea for this ability - no longer a "ranged" ability in the sense it throws a hammer, but instead acts like a teleport attack. Think Crusader's leap ability (drawing a blank on the name). Would open the doors for a very cool animation, and would solve a lot of ret's problems in PVP. Reduce range to 20 yds to compensate.


HoW has been consistently bad as an execute - ret's dont need an execute anyway, we need better sustainable damage. This is my idea to help it. Give some feedback.

If we were to be given a charge, I'm very hopeful that it's not a single targeted charge like the warrior, but instead a location target ability that has a cc/snare factor. Animation could factor the effect - a short blind, maybe a knockback.. thoughts?

[Demsi]

I think a gap closer is enough, HoW is the most iconic spell out there, its fine as it is, it sucks as an excecute, but when you`re bursting its your strongest spell.

[hoofton]

Reskin heroic leap, make it so if something is targeted you jump straight to it, otherwise you got to put the little circle on the ground where you want to go. then make everything within 5yds take the same amount of damage as HoW. This gives mobility to both PvP AND PvE, and still makes it a viable spell in our rotation. you could even make a glyph that gives it a snare/slow. boom.

[odin021]

I think a gap closer is enough, HoW is the most iconic spell out there, its fine as it is, it sucks as an excecute, but when you`re bursting its your strongest spell.

I don't consider it all that Iconic.

It's not like charge, or PW:Shield or anything like that. Avenging Wrath and Judgement are Iconic.. HoW is boring the way it is right now. Just a button to hit when it's available.

[Demsi]

Well, if you played earlier when HoW was an actual finisher (vanilla-wotlk) then you know what i am talking about, when you were at 20% hp fighting against a paladin you knew you were fvcked, because you were going to get a huge ass hammer of light in your face

[odin021]

Well, if you played earlier when HoW was an actual finisher (vanilla-wotlk) then you know what i am talking about, when you were at 20% hp fighting against a paladin you knew you were fvcked, because you were going to get a huge ass hammer of light in your face

I pretty much exclusively pvp'd as a ret, I know what you're talking about. I still think some sort of change to the ability is called for (doesn't need to be what i proposed)

[MBDTF]

This attack needs a disengage aspect to it also, I think that's what its missing. or more chaos bolts.

[Krekko]

I don't consider it all that Iconic.

It's not like charge, or PW:Shield or anything like that. Avenging Wrath and Judgement are Iconic.. HoW is boring the way it is right now. Just a button to hit when it's available.

Yeah, HoW, to me, is not iconic either. Consecration is Iconic. HoW, while I am fond of it, is hardly iconic of the class.

We do need an official gap closer though, I'd kill for our own Heroic Leap, or even turning into the light and appearing at your target, something cheesy like that (in this case the flashier the better). Hell, even as a talent, choosing between passive speed, active speed, and a gap closer would be cool, but I do hope we get one.

HoW should knock people down, or stun them at the least though.

[Cackberry]

Hammer of wrath ideally should be kept as an execute, drop the availability of it during AW and bring up the damage as it was in Wrath. It's rather lack luster. I don't see hammer of wrath being a type of gap closer, it would need to be incorporated onto a different spell, or a new spell all together.

[Ramiell]

I like HoW as a ranged execute. It needs a new graphic though. Seriously, if you stare at that graphic you will go blind. I never liked it's functionality during AW either. It may be better with the slimmed down rotation. Always felt it cramped me up doing wings. They are increasing it's damage and making it usable on targets at or sub 35% HP. Not bad at all IMO.

A spell for hard initiating would be nice. Long Arm of the Law is too nonchalant compared to what the other plate DPS get. Steed Charge, Falling Sword, taking Speed of Light baseline, or Tyrael's teleport from HoS would be nice. I'm thinking it would need to be a longish cooldown, 30 seconds or so. It should probably also double as an escape since Ret is usually a target.

[Blithe]

I think Paladin mobility is fine, especially considering it's higher than Enhancement's and a Death Knight's respectively. The problem lies in the rest of the melee classes having ridiculous amounts of gap closers and mobility which makes it seem like we need something to compensate or compete. In most cases this expansion, we've needed some things like that but in Warlords a lot of the "overpowered" classes' mobility is being reduced so giving us any would be like taking 1 step forward, and 2 steps back.

Hammer of Wrath is fine being a ranged execute, but as someone before me has said, all it needs is to be less prevalent throughout Avenging Wrath, and much more effective (like in Wrath) outside of it. I also think its threshold should be increased to 25% up from 20%.

[anaxie]

I don't consider it all that Iconic.

It's not like charge, or PW:Shield or anything like that. Avenging Wrath and Judgement are Iconic.. HoW is boring the way it is right now. Just a button to hit when it's available.

Avenging Wrath is iconic because it means HAMMERS

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Hammer of wrath ideally should be kept as an execute, drop the availability of it during AW and bring up the damage as it was in Wrath. It's rather lack luster. I don't see hammer of wrath being a type of gap closer, it would need to be incorporated onto a different spell, or a new spell all together.

how bout... no?

[omegatrigun]

HoW was specifically designed to be a ranged execute and that's it. Something to finish off a wounded target that is trying to run away.

Ret doesn't really need a hard gap closer. No cd snare/root removal + HoF + Long Arm is pretty good for staying mobile.

We do need an official gap closer though, I'd kill for our own Heroic Leap, or even turning into the light and appearing at your target, something cheesy like that (in this case the flashier the better). Hell, even as a talent, choosing between passive speed, active speed, and a gap closer would be cool, but I do hope we get one.

And Warriors would kill for Emancipate or HoF. You're not supposed to be able to do everything well and not every melee is supposed to work the same way.

HoW should knock people down, or stun them at the least though.

A 30 yd range execute that also stuns/knocks down on a 3/6 sec cd? That would be incredibly imbalanced.

Avenging Wrath is iconic because it means HAMMERS

It's iconic because of the visual. The hammers is just something they gave ret to make it a bit more interesting when it's up and to give ret something similar to warriors getting to use execute outside of execute range sometimes.

A spell for hard initiating would be nice. Long Arm of the Law is too nonchalant compared to what the other plate DPS get.

Having ranged attacks and being faster than other melee are pretty nice for starting a fight. If by "nonchalant" you mean different, then yes. Other melee have to be babysitted with dispels and freedoms, and a lot of the time when they do get to a target after a gap closer, they get immediately rooted and after getting a few hits in are back to being kited forever. When they're supported right, they can be effective. Just like for a ret to be effective in team pvp, it usually has to be supported by someone who can lock targets down with cc and snares/roots such as a hunter.

[Ramiell]

Having ranged attacks and being faster than other melee are pretty nice for starting a fight. If by "nonchalant" you mean different, then yes. Other melee have to be babysitted with dispels and freedoms, and a lot of the time when they do get to a target after a gap closer, they get immediately rooted and after getting a few hits in are back to being kited forever. When they're supported right, they can be effective. Just like for a ret to be effective in team pvp, it usually has to be supported by someone who can lock targets down with cc and snares/roots such as a hunter.

I actually wish more (all) of our single target attacks were ranged. It would fit the current playstyle better IMO. When a War charges or a DK grips, they are essentially forcing the target to deal with them immediately. While Long Arm of the Law affords you faster movement, it doesn't really make that same strong "statement." That feeling is missing from ret. I believe this is why people want a hard gap closer so badly. Ret may not need it currently, but it is definitely something that is usually core to heavy plate wearing classes in most games.

I love Hand of Freedom, but don't even get me started on Emancipate. I should not have to GCD lock myself with this to get/stay free when HoF is down. It should afford some seconds of lasting protection to whatever it removed at the very least. Have you ever been hit with a snare just after getting Long Arms speed with HoF on cooldown? One of the worst feelings ever. Imagine if slowing effects worked on charge/grip.

As a side note Gladiator wars will have access to about 6 (?) movement ability's in WoD. 2 Shield Charges, 2 Charges from double time, Heroic Leap and Intervene. I'm not jealous or anything...just saying...0_0

[Sylar Hao]

I've always thought Ret needs to be something like Kayle from LoL.

In my opinion Ret's mastery is plain boring, so what about this?
- Avenging Wrath (ret): Increases damage and healing done by X% and causes all attacks and spells to be ranged and deal holy damage (yeah, I know it's about the same as Enhancement's Ascendance). It no longer interacts with Hammer of Wrath (maybe through talents)
- Hand of Light (mastery): Your abilities (mostly Exo and Judgment) have a (mastery) % chance to cause the Paladin to enter Avenging Wrath for 5 secs. Hand of Light procs while Avenging Wrath is active will increase its duration instead.

This would make ret very iconic in the sense of an angelic warrior and it fills that "gap closer" in a different way (by making you a ranged class for a short time).

[omegatrigun]

I actually wish more (all) of our single target attacks were ranged. It would fit the current playstyle better IMO. When a War charges or a DK grips, they are essentially forcing the target to deal with them immediately.

And ret's kit forces them to deal with you constantly because they can't keep you slowed.

While Long Arm of the Law affords you faster movement, it doesn't really make that same strong "statement." That feeling is missing from ret. I believe this is why people want a hard gap closer so badly. Ret may not need it currently, but it is definitely something that is usually core to heavy plate wearing classes in most games.

Just because another game has it, doesn't mean this one will. People need to stop expecting every melee to have charge and work the same. If they want charge or shadowstep, play the classes that have them. Ret has been asking for a charge forever. Their answer was giving ret Long Arm to go with being able to remove their own slows as a different kind of mobility.

I love Hand of Freedom, but don't even get me started on Emancipate. I should not have to GCD lock myself with this to get/stay free when HoF is down. It should afford some seconds of lasting protection to whatever it removed at the very least.

You aren't going to be global locked unless someone is constantly using a slow on you, which aside from frost mages, most classes slows are either on cd or don't have any kind of other effect meaning they'd have to global lock themselves to keep you in the slow. You're not supposed to just be free of slows for large amounts of time as a melee. You deal with them the best you can and play around them. There's a reason why ret's are the only melee that get to do this and why it requires you to give up a global to do it. Because a melee that can stay unslowed without any help constantly is really powerful.

And if it gave you some immunity time it would be broken. You'd never be slowed ever again.

Have you ever been hit with a snare just after getting Long Arms speed with HoF on cooldown? One of the worst feelings ever.

That's when you cast Emancipate.

Imagine if slowing effects worked on charge/grip.

Slowing hurts Long Arm, but you can remove them. On the other hand, you can't charge a target while rooted and warriors can't remove their roots outside of a few things on long cds. A dk can't death grip a target that's rooted and I think some other ccs mess it up too and the dk can't do anything about that.

As a side note Gladiator wars will have access to about 6 (?) movement ability's in WoD. 2 Shield Charges, 2 Charges from double time, Heroic Leap and Intervene. I'm not jealous or anything...just saying...0_0

Intervene moves you to an ally. Shield Charge has a 10 yd range, not exactly a good mobility ability. And they still get kited to death when those are on cd. Also, it's in beta. Nobody knows exactly how everything will turn out yet. They remove and change things constantly.

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- Hand of Light (mastery): Your abilities (mostly Exo and Judgment) have a (mastery) % chance to cause the Paladin to enter Avenging Wrath for 5 secs. Hand of Light procs while Avenging Wrath is active will increase its duration instead.

That would be incredibly rng and broken.

This would make ret very iconic in the sense of an angelic warrior and it fills that "gap closer" in a different way (by making you a ranged class for a short time).

First off, a paladin isn't an angelic warrior. Second, then people would complain that it makes them even more reliant on Avenging Wrath and that that's the only time they're effective.

[Ramiell]

Omega, you are getting overly knitpicky and missing entire points. Look at the title of the thread and the class forum you are currently in. Telling people to "pick another class" is asinine.

You say ret's current kit forces people to always deal with you constantly. That is clearly not the case due to offensive dispels and snare/cc spamming. Highly evident with anytime spent in serious pvp as ret.

What is faster? Teleporting to a location or the location to you. Or running quickly to said location? Which method makes a stronger impact?

This is what the "gap closer" issue boils down to, more so than "oh I want this because X class has it."

[Blithe]

Omega, you are getting overly knitpicky and missing entire points. Look at the title of the thread and the class forum you are currently in. Telling people to "pick another class" is asinine.

You say ret's current kit forces people to always deal with you constantly. That is clearly not the case due to offensive dispels and snare/cc spamming.

What is faster? Teleporting to a location or the location to you. Or running quickly to said location? Which method makes a stronger impact?

That's Retribution's play-style, though. "Teleporting" or "Charging" to a location isn't how they work. Warriors have Charge and Heroic Leap, Death Knight's have Death Grip, Rogues have Dash and the option to talent into Shadowstep, Cloak and Dagger or Burst of Speed. What does Retribution get? Baseline Hand of Freedom in addition to Emancipate (I would kill for this on my Enhancement) and the option to talent into a movement tier. Not everyone needs to instantly move to, or away from a target... Retribution's movement is fine and you should deal with it. If you want more movement, the Monk and Druid forms are that way... this is the peak at which this classes mobility will get until Blizzard thinks otherwise.

[Ramiell]

That's Retribution's play-style, though.

Currently yes. This is something we all know. All Rets currently "deal with it." You can love it or hate it and that is fine. However, dismissing people for wanting to talk about changes is not. Especially when you click on a thread that states, we are talking about gap closers.

[Blithe]

Currently yes. This is something we all know. All Rets currently "deal with it." You can love it or hate it and that is fine. However, dismissing people for wanting to talk about changes is not. Especially when you click on a thread that states, we are talking about gap closers.

Yes, and you can continue to "deal with it". There's a clear distinction between discussing a point and complaining about it. You seem to be complaining about it, rather than having a proper discussion about it.

Complaint:
"What is faster? Teleporting to a location or the location to you. Or running quickly to said location? Which method makes a stronger impact?"

Discussion:
"Here's the problem, here's how I suggest we fix it and here are the pro's and con's. Thoughts?".

You have to give a bit more detail than this:

Hammer of Wrath (20s Cool Down)
30yd Range 3 Holy Power

Deals x damage to the target - Benefits from Haste
- maybe deal 20% of the damage over 5s to fill that DoT gap people see to want
- if we aren't given a better gap closer, make it mini-stun. 1.5s stun (like charge). Pretty Reasonable for a 20s CD
- alternative idea for this ability - no longer a "ranged" ability in the sense it throws a hammer, but instead acts like a teleport attack. Think Crusader's leap ability (drawing a blank on the name). Would open the doors for a very cool animation, and would solve a lot of ret's problems in PVP. Reduce range to 20 yds to compensate.


HoW has been consistently bad as an execute - ret's dont need an execute anyway, we need better sustainable damage. This is my idea to help it. Give some feedback.

If we were to be given a charge, I'm very hopeful that it's not a single targeted charge like the warrior, but instead a location target ability that has a cc/snare factor. Animation could factor the effect - a short blind, maybe a knockback.. thoughts?