ele BIS offpiece question

[hatchetman240]

I'm seeing a lot of conformity on the BIS for elemental shamans, but I've noticed tons of people using the dark shaman shoulders HWF instead of tier shoulders and they're up around 18% hit already. Isn't this wasted? The BIS offpiece according to what I'm seeing for stats is the grips of tidal force (due to the +250 intelligence, even though they are a crit/mastery item vs a haste/mastery item).

[Deleted]

As far as i Know bis offpiece is hcwf grips of the tidal force....

[Deleted]

Nope, the dark shaman shoulders are the ultimate BiS hc wf item.

[hatchetman240]

Epsi, can you explain why that is, since the spirit is totally wasted the only thing you can get from them is the single stat, mastery, which the rest of your gear can carry over 100% anyway. The set shoulders waste no stats, and going to the grips of tidal force introduces no additional spirit.

[Deleted]

I was remember it correctly in any scenarios gloves>shoulders as offpice

From totemspot ele guide

Example Sims
The below are links to the sims showing the BIS dps for varying fight styles, based on build type.

Light Movement Single Target, UF+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...lanced_LM.html

Helter Skelter, UF+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...lanced_HS.html

Hectic Add Cleave, PE+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...anced_HAC.html

Light Movement 3 Targets (constant cleave), PE+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...ced_LM_3T.html

Check link open all different scenarios and check gear list

[stomination]

I was remember it correctly in any scenarios gloves>shoulders as offpice

From totemspot ele guide

Example Sims
The below are links to the sims showing the BIS dps for varying fight styles, based on build type.

Light Movement Single Target, UF+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...lanced_LM.html

Helter Skelter, UF+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...lanced_HS.html

Hectic Add Cleave, PE+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...anced_HAC.html

Light Movement 3 Targets (constant cleave), PE+Echo
http://totemspot.com/simc/T16/BIS_Ha...ced_LM_3T.html

Check link open all different scenarios and check gear list

Those are a bit old and dont include the extra 4 item levels.


But anyways most things say that its the gloves from Galakras for a mastery build.

[Deleted]

The reality of the situation is, if we're talking about HC WF then going for mastery on every item is not a necessity. Before I moved to a 25-man guild and before the extra 8 item level upgrades, I went strictly for mastery in every slot (I took the resto tier shoulders because they had mastery on them - surprisingly, this worked out nicely), but now that you can have the 35% haste breakpoint, be mastery capped at 100% and still be over the hit cap, what you gear is a little less significant, and it would be entirely feasible to replace a piece with, say, spirit and mastery on it, for a piece with crit and haste. Prior to all of the above, the spirit and mastery could work out nicely, but with the additional stats the chances are you could end up wasting both spirit and mastery, so you may as well replace them with some crit and haste.

Below is a direct stat comparison between HC WF shoulders/ele tier shoulders, and HC WF gloves/ele tier gloves:

Foul streams (spirit+haste)
1685 int
2891 2nd

Tier ele (crit+haste)
1864 int
2370 2nd

diff: -179 int, +521 2nd



Tidal force (crit+mastery)
1885 int
2707 2nd

Tier ele (haste+mastery)
1864 int
2462 2nd


diff: +21 int, +245 2nd

Stat-wise, whether you change the gloves or the shoulders, there's not too much difference. I certainly wouldn't be changing my gloves though, since replacing a piece that has no spirit on it with crit is not really ideal while reforging is still a thing.

[Deleted]

I thought the best off-piece was the chest armor from Klaxxi. Then compensating with the extra spirit, you'd get the boots from Siegecrafter, off-hand from Garrosh + Thok's ring.

[Epistate]

You should be using thoks ring, siege books, and garrosh off-hand anyways. Regardless of what you are using

[hatchetman240]

You should be using thoks ring, siege books, and garrosh off-hand anyways. Regardless of what you are using

not everyone is 14/14H yet though, and a shield has enough additional armor to consider using it over an offhand.

[stomination]

not everyone is 14/14H yet though, and a shield has enough additional armor to consider using it over an offhand.

Yet this is a bis thing and usually bis doesnt happen till after being 14/14H.

And like i said the gloves seems to be the one to go for both on Haste and Mastery build. But the difference isnt big enough to go to arms over.

[Epistate]

not everyone is 14/14H yet though, and a shield has enough additional armor to consider using it over an offhand.

Armor doesn't outweigh the benefit of the additional haste / mastery. Tbh, armor shouldn't be a consideration as you should be avoiding / popping a personal for any physical damage anyways.

[Deleted]

Epsi, can you explain why that is, since the spirit is totally wasted the only thing you can get from them is the single stat, mastery, which the rest of your gear can carry over 100% anyway. The set shoulders waste no stats, and going to the grips of tidal force introduces no additional spirit.

Its called best in slot-set for a reason. You are wearing the DA shoulders only when you've bis/close to bis... but a good start would be having the garrosh off hand. I'm currently at 15.4% hit at 585 ilvl (all hc wf BiS items, not all fully upgraded yet), while having 100% mastery, 38% haste and 52k spell power.

[Deleted]

Use 4/4 upgrades, it will show a bigger difference =) With the shoulders you should be taking only useful secondary stats into an account and exclude spirit which is left after reforging. What I would suggest is adding the useful secondary stats up in both cases (adding shoulders+gloves stats to get the best setup):
*with shoulder off-piece it would be 4292 useful secondary stats (in that case haste+mastery)
*with the glove off-piece it would be 5014 secondary stats (in that caste crit+haste+mastery)

But furthermore we should look at how much haste+mastery do we get from both versions after reforging. With the shoulder off-piece all the secondary stats are haste+mastery already so it would be 4292. With the gloves we would need to take the crit which remained after reforging (1441) from 5014 and we get 3573 haste+mastery. This means that we get 700 less useful (haste+mastery) stats in total with the off-piece gloves than with the off-piece shoulders.

Why do you think that 1441 crit and the 220 int you would get with the gloves according to your calculation are worse than the 719 "useful" stats? I know it will differ from char to char but when simming my char (itemlvl 582) I get these statweigths :

int 8.71
crit 4.79
haste 5.39
mastery 4.91

putting crit at around 88% usefulness of haste, meaning the crit you would get is already better than the useful other stats for single target, completely ignoring the int you also gain. Even if the crit value would be much lower, aka my sims get me wrong results, if you factor the int into the equation one point of haste would need to give you about 4 times the dps one point of crit would give you for the shoulders to get better.

Of course this completely disregards the spirit on the wf shoulders...but you need to be able to use most of it for them to get better. It however also disregards that crit will get even better in an ae situation.

[Deleted]

Sad to see that we dont have all the information discussed in this thread already avaible since the announcement of 4/4 upgrades, like any other class got. :/ Lack of theorycrafting is never a good sign, and shaman never really had that many theorycrafters to begin with. We're sailing towards darker times it seems.

[hatchetman240]

With 6.0 coming everything changes anyway, so people who would otherwise do this sort of thing will have less motivation to do it.

Also, with proper weights Mr. Robot actually cranks out a good BIS list now anyway. You just really have to look carefully at the options it is giving you and make sure all your selections are done properly.

[Epistate]

Shaman theorycrafting is quite simple when it comes to gear. Avoid crit, stack haste and mastery, and only use as much spirit as you need. Between your neck choices; all having hit or spirit on them, your bracer choices; all having spirit on them, your belt choices (lol or choice); having spirit on it, your main hand choices; all having spirit on them, and your reforging on your legendary (crit to spirit) it doesn't take much analysis to know the surrounding pieces shouldn't have spirit on them.

Now your dilemma is gear haste or mastery? I play with a balance of the two, because at 94% mastery I get procs when I need them and higher haste is a stronger single target increase - adds are completely molested at 584+ gear levels.

Why don't we have a new BIS list? Because shaman don't have many alternatives gear wise. All offset gear has crit or spirit on it. So regardless of 2/2 or 4/4 the BIS list is going to be the same. You can always look up brightleaf or leedsyboy to see what they are doing, I guess. I'm pretty sure a BIS Leeds list is around here somewhere (he focuses strictly on mastery).

In terms of best in slot, your tier shoulders are better than dark shamans' alternative. Why? 1k spirit (or more) and two blue sockets. If you're killing siegecrafter, avoid these hwf. Now...you could argue the additional 6 ilvls on the galakras gloves will make them the most attractive off set piece. You gain what? 200 int and a yellow socket? Personally, I prefer 1k+ haste over the crit and int gain gameplay wise. The difference is going to be incredibly marginal and more rng bc of the crit.

In regards to askmrrobot and it's "bis" list - I have to disagree. I've seen multiple times it suggest me use a crit spirit piece over what I'm using. Our BIS isn't hard to figure out, for reasons I've already mentioned.

[hatchetman240]

I've seen multiple times it suggest me use a crit spirit piece over what I'm using. Our BIS isn't hard to figure out, for reasons I've already mentioned.

Oh, I forgot to mention you have to have both the proper weights in there and look carefully at the options Mr Robot gives you to make sure your selection is done properly. Oh wait, I did mention that. This is like being given a calculator for a math exam and failing because you don't understand how to operate the calculator.

[Sodia]

Epsi, can you explain why that is, since the spirit is totally wasted the only thing you can get from them is the single stat, mastery, which the rest of your gear can carry over 100% anyway. The set shoulders waste no stats, and going to the grips of tidal force introduces no additional spirit.

Item level !! dident you know that it is not the stats that make the item BIS its the Itemlevel :P

- - - Updated - - -

Its called best in slot-set for a reason. You are wearing the DA shoulders only when you've bis/close to bis... but a good start would be having the garrosh off hand. I'm currently at 15.4% hit at 585 ilvl (all hc wf BiS items, not all fully upgraded yet), while having 100% mastery, 38% haste and 52k spell power.

Well i have full Set so not a single of set and i'm on 98% mastery 42% haste and over 52 SP. BIS is the best item in that slot not the item with biger itemlevel .I remember from i think in last Expansion Wariors have Boots or trinket not shure from first patch almost to the end of the Expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Shaman theorycrafting is quite simple when it comes to gear. Avoid crit, stack haste and mastery, and only use as much spirit as you need. Between your neck choices; all having hit or spirit on them, your bracer choices; all having spirit on them, your belt choices (lol or choice); having spirit on it, your main hand choices; all having spirit on them, and your reforging on your legendary (crit to spirit) it doesn't take much analysis to know the surrounding pieces shouldn't have spirit on them.

Now your dilemma is gear haste or mastery? I play with a balance of the two, because at 94% mastery I get procs when I need them and higher haste is a stronger single target increase - adds are completely molested at 584+ gear levels.

Why don't we have a new BIS list? Because shaman don't have many alternatives gear wise. All offset gear has crit or spirit on it. So regardless of 2/2 or 4/4 the BIS list is going to be the same. You can always look up brightleaf or leedsyboy to see what they are doing, I guess. I'm pretty sure a BIS Leeds list is around here somewhere (he focuses strictly on mastery).

In terms of best in slot, your tier shoulders are better than dark shamans' alternative. Why? 1k spirit (or more) and two blue sockets. If you're killing siegecrafter, avoid these hwf. Now...you could argue the additional 6 ilvls on the galakras gloves will make them the most attractive off set piece. You gain what? 200 int and a yellow socket? Personally, I prefer 1k+ haste over the crit and int gain gameplay wise. The difference is going to be incredibly marginal and more rng bc of the crit.

In regards to askmrrobot and it's "bis" list - I have to disagree. I've seen multiple times it suggest me use a crit spirit piece over what I'm using. Our BIS isn't hard to figure out, for reasons I've already mentioned.

This the real and Profesional Answer to all in this thread

[Eggwolls]

Just out of curiosity, I checked Brightleaf's armory. He's using 5pc tier. Kind of surprising to me. Anyone know the reason?