ele BIS offpiece question

[Deleted]

Just out of curiosity, I checked Brightleaf's armory. He's using 5pc tier. Kind of surprising to me. Anyone know the reason?

Every offpiece has spirit, bis offpiece was Shoulderguards of Foul Streams before 4/4 upgrades. With full upgrades you have 15% and over even if you reforge all so your only choice is to take tiershoulders to bypass this problem. Better to have crit than overhit

[Anzen]

Going to just directly compare tier shoulders + off piece gloves vs off piece shoulders + tier gloves (since there's no need to add the rest of your gear to the equation).

Firstly, the stats from each item (after reforging and proper gemming: I haven't included spirit at all on these, since you can't be in BiS & under hit-cap).

Grips of Tidal Force HCWF 4/4
2141 Intellect
873 Crit
1634 Mastery
582 Haste

Gloves of Celestial Harmony HCWF 4/4
2145 Intellect
1294 Haste
1539 Mastery

Shoulderguards of Foul Streams HCWF
1981 Intellect
1207 Haste
1212 Mastery

Shoulderwraps of Celestial Harmony
2145 Intellect
568 Crit
1459 Haste
698 Mastery

Scenario 1: Using off-tier gloves as your off-piece.

Total stat gain:

+ 4286 Intellect
+ 2332 Mastery
+ 2041 Haste
+ 1441 Crit

Scenario 2: Using off-tier shoulders as your off-piece.

Total stat gain:

+ 4126 Intellect
+ 2751 Mastery
+ 2501 Haste

Gains/Losses swapping FROM off-set gloves TO off-set shoulders:

- 160 Intellect
- 1441 Crit
+ 419 Mastery
+ 460 Haste

Now, despite everyone knowing that 'crit is bad for Elemental' it's still a far superior trade-off (crit isn't really that bad, and int weighs in at almost twice secondaries).

They were only BiS before item upgrades because you could sort of use the off-piece shoulders without completely wasting the hit.

Just out of curiosity, I checked Brightleaf's armory. He's using 5pc tier. Kind of surprising to me. Anyone know the reason?

Not everyone has every single piece of SoO gear HCWF? Like, despite clearing for a long time, it's still pretty hard to get every single item.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the maths, sad that I already upgraded my tier gloves. But now I went from only missing hc wf shoulders to only missing hc wf gloves >.<

Not everyone has every single piece of SoO gear HCWF? Like, despite clearing for a long time, it's still pretty hard to get every single item.

Doubt so, Brightleaf has pretty much the max. amount of Garrosh kills (35). I think he simply doesnt care anymore, like most of the people in such guilds. Also, I've managed to hit bis hc wf (excluding the item above mentioned) in less than 15 25 man IDs, although I had already 3 hc wf pieces from 10 man.

[Sodia]

Now, despite everyone knowing that 'crit is bad for Elemental' it's still a far superior trade-off (crit isn't really that bad, and int weighs in at almost twice secondaries).

I Realy love theory crafters and ther numbers and how they alwais think they ar right... and now why right now crit is bad - our main Damage dealer is?? "Lava Burst" weach alwais crit so in theory crit looks nice but not in real Fight where over 60% your damage comes from a spel that dosent benefit from crit at all.

[Deleted]

I Realy love theory crafters and ther numbers and how they alwais think they ar right... and now why right now crit is bad - our main Damage dealer is?? "Lava Burst" weach alwais crit so in theory crit looks nice but not in real Fight where over 60% your damage comes from a spel that dosent benefit from crit at all.

The thing here is, that every point of mastery is wasted beyond 100% and every point of spirit wasted when you're at 15% hit. The gloves, with its crit on it, is the best option we've in full 4/4 BEST. IN. SLOT HEROIC WARFORGED GEAR, since every other off set item is simply worse.

[Epistate]

Or you could use tier. But lava burst isn't 60%? It's probably more like 35-42%

[Gistwiki]

The thing here is, that every point of mastery is wasted beyond 100% and every point of spirit wasted when you're at 15% hit.

For single target* The chance to proc chain lighting is cut to 1/3 on our mastery. However, it's worthwhile noting that Crit generally has an even higher weight than Mastery for AoE currently.

@ Sodia - The fact that Crit generally hovers around 80-85% of the value of haste or mastery takes the fact that Lava Burst is a large source of our damage into account. 60% is hyperbole though.

[Sodia]

The thing here is, that every point of mastery is wasted beyond 100% and every point of spirit wasted when you're at 15% hit. The gloves, with its crit on it, is the best option we've in full 4/4 BEST. IN. SLOT HEROIC WARFORGED GEAR, since every other off set item is simply worse.

:P and now you goin to insult me if i tel you your still wrong?? So a hands with 1200 haste and 1200 mastery ar worst in your opinion then hands with 1200 spirit and 1200 crit ahh the extra 200 int :P

I'm 15.30 hit now and cant cut it les on my grear with thous Hands ot Sholders thats another 1%+ hit so yes youre right the stat wont be wasted

- - - Updated - - -

Or you could use tier. But lava burst isn't 60%? It's probably more like 35-42%

You right lets say is close to 50% but it is still doing most of our damage

[Gistwiki]

50% is still hyperbole. In an ideal single target situation that 35-42 is what you're looking at for lava burst. Even with that being the case though, theorycrafting takes that into account when looking at what's better. For any situation that is not pure single target that number drops dramatically too.

And we're talking about the crit/mastery gloves from galakras, not the crit/spirit ones from immerseus :-P

[Anzen]

I Realy love theory crafters and ther numbers and how they alwais think they ar right... and now why right now crit is bad - our main Damage dealer is?? "Lava Burst" weach alwais crit so in theory crit looks nice but not in real Fight where over 60% your damage comes from a spel that dosent benefit from crit at all.

As got mentioned above (I didn't think it had to be brought up, but obviously it does), saying "crit is bad" is way too general; last time I simmed crit, it was only ~20% or so damage behind Mastery & Haste (without having issues with hard-caps). Also Lava Burst doesn't make up "60%" of our damage so not quite sure where you got that from? If you disagree with me, fight facts with facts and not blanket opinions. If you're not sure how your class works, then don't contribute on in-depth threads on said class.

[Chubathingy]

WF Grips of Tidal Force > Tier Gloves > any WF with spirit on them. Same as it was before 4/4 upgrading became available.
_______

Also, food for thought... When 6.0 comes out the WF-Chestguard of Toxic Injections is probably going to be BiS... Simply because what ever set of 5 pieces you go with at least 2 of them will have crit on them so the higher stat budget of a chest VS shoulder/gloves should pull it ahead. Opting for the WF shoulders would give you more mastery though if that is somehow still needed.

Speaking of 6.0, some of your other BiS options will be:
Rings(2nd slot): Iyyokuk's Hereditary Seal(Mastery/Crit) > Petrified Pennyroyal Ring(Haste/Crit) > Extinguished Ember of Galakras(Haste/Crit)
Neck: Will still be Unchained Guardian's Chain(Mastery/Crit)
OH: Visage of the Monstrous(Mastery/Haste)
Boots: Sabatons of Defilement(Mastery/Haste/red socket) =/> than Powder-Stained Totemic Treads(Not sure what gems are doing)
Bracers: Bracers of the Pristine Purifier(Haste/Mastery)


I am jelly of you 25m people and your WF KTT's ;[ Though I have still managed top 10 with BBY'S!

PS: As far as using OH's instead of shields, since I don't think anyone said it... Don't do it unless/until you are on farm, having a shield on gives you 14% Physical dmg red and on most fights that is worth a lot more than 500 secondary stats(especially before 4/4 upgrades when you could be at 15.03% ish hit with a shield..).

[Gistwiki]

In current gear untainted guardian's chain should be inferior to lost necklace of the logs empress so long as you can use the spirit. Also, is that list of what stat spirit is becoming on what item up somewhere I can see? I'd like to do some math of my own on that.

[hatchetman240]

The people who think crit is worthless are folks who really need to read more. Crit sims for me as very close to mastery and haste now, and I think the worst I ever saw it was at 80% of the value of mastery, so if you accept a 1400 loss of crit and 140 int in favor of 400 mastery and 400 haste you're actually losing DPS. This is why simming yourself for your stat weights and loading them into Mr Robot helps, because that "score" number it gives you are the total number of stats (and it considers less or 0 for caps as you direct it) times the amount of that stats weight. It does add in some numbers for your set bonuses and your trinkets based on what the designers think they were worth (and usually that's pretty accurate, but there are exceptions).

What's not up for debate here is the fact that crit has value, and that value is pretty damn high, especially considering we are near or over mastery cap, and spend 30%+ of our fights casting our spells at/near GCD lock (note that haste does continue to add value via haste proc mechanic). What else is there? If you're tossing a higher adjusted crit value in exchange for a lower adjusted mastery/haste value then you're just accepting less DPS for the sake of erroneous simplicity.

[Epistate]

Curious where those 6.0 stats came from. Haven't seen any literature on it.

[Sandokai]

The best piece is the piece that gives you the best difference from what you otherwise have, that's obvious, but consider this example.

My guild is 11/14 heroic and working on Blackfuse. I don't have heroic tier shoulders or legs, and staying at/near the hit cap is always a challenge (hell, I even have some haste/stam gems).

Tier legs already have spirit so I don't get a hit problem from swapping healer gear in for them, and when I simulate it - it turns out Heroic WF off piece legs (Shadowbinder's Kilt in this case) - under all SimCraft scenarios - give me the best +/- over what I'd otherwise wear. Even though the Galakras gloves sim higher than tier gloves, it's not as big a delta as swapping the legs out.

[Chubathingy]

In current gear untainted guardian's chain should be inferior to lost necklace of the logs empress so long as you can use the spirit. Also, is that list of what stat spirit is becoming on what item up somewhere I can see? I'd like to do some math of my own on that.

UGC has both more mastery(+188) and more stats(+42) when compared to LNME. No one can use the spirit @4/4upgrades and mostly warforged.

Curious where those 6.0 stats came from. Haven't seen any literature on it.

Alpha/Data-mining I presume. To figure off pieces just set the item filter to 572 Ilev, has Int and then flip between item slots(and mail where applicable).

[Gistwiki]

UGC has both more mastery(+188) and more stats(+42) when compared to LNME. No one can use the spirit @4/4upgrades and mostly warforged.

It has more mastery, but you're forgetting that the spirit on LNME gets bumped by PBOI. It has ~1277 spirit after the bump from a 588 PBOI, which leaves it with more stats (+81) overall over UGC.

Any non-draenei can use all the spirit in a full BiS setup. A draenei is stuck using the Int/Crit leg enchant and wasting 58 points of the spirit, which would even it out if not give UGC a minor advantage but a non-draenei has the room to spare easily.

Edit: Agree with the rest of your post about BiS options for 6.0 after looking at what's available myself and coming to the same conclusions on each piece.

[Epistate]

Hmmm. Interesting. Good share! Lucky for me, I've obtained some of those pieces already by happenstance.

Although I'll admit that going for bis during 6.0 is unlikely. Hell, I'll probably be on an alt full time here within the next couple of weeks (because hwf bindings doesn't exist).

[Anzen]

The best piece is the piece that gives you the best difference from what you otherwise have

This thread is about true Best In Slot, not what is 'better based on my current gear?'.

I can't really see any true competition between the gloves and the shoulders though.

[Deleted]

Some thoughts about offset items for 6.0:
It may be worth getting a Chestguard of Toxic Injections (Klaxxi Chest) as this will have 2642int 1968mastery 1520haste and 2x red 1x yellow sockets presquish,
while the set-chest has crit+mastery. The Dark Shaman shoulders will have haste+mastery too, but it will still have the blue sockets. (not 100% sure yet)
I will definitely go for this chest and the Protectors boots if those drop the next few IDs.