Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 295 people has been shot down in Ukraine

[Bakis]

Keep in mind i am not dismissing any side atm, but I hate ppl making up stuff and theories without any valid proof being showed so far.

Remember the green little men that "weren't" russian soldiers?
We are in for a wait at least untill pro-russians acknowledge whatever happened if it doesnt portray Russia in a good light.

[Zigzagzoom]

The black boxes shouldn't be investigated by any of the suspected parties. Obviously, all have conflicts of interest. Send those to Finland!

The black boxes really don't matter all that much. They are important if you don't know what happened to an airline. You need the systems info to determine what failed in the plane. Otherwise location, altitude, air speed ect are already known. Again irrelevant. We know what happened in this case the plane was shot down by and surface to air missile.

What is important is the crash site/ crime scene. The physical material from the missile is what will be telling.

[StayTuned]

Please provide some proof.

No one claims Ukranian fighters done it. Please reread my post.



Posted in this thread several times already.

"This thread" has already 107 pages with a new page every minute. Sorry that I can't keep track of all the sources posted. That's why I asked for one. Stop being like this and actually help out if you even care. If not, leave me alone.

[Bolson13]

No, we don't have to prove it.

So it not even close to any evidence. Just some random tweet. Why is it even being discussed.

[alkyd]

With that I agree, I'm just curious why you personally posted dubious sources previously to prove a point and I mean DUBIOUS but as soon as a source that is well reputed imply otherwise its back to the classic "no proof" stance.

You see the conflict I got with your posting? I dont claim anything is certain but it involves not claiming either A or B as a certainty to be false (in your case claiming any indiscriminating and preliminary(keyword) evidence against separatists are automatically untrue hidden by "no proof") and this is when it comes down to sources and the likelihood for you and me to base an educated guess about the plausible explanation with the information we both have so far.

I never said that the source I gave is the proof or relevant in some sort. All I did was just gave the information. But people started to rape me into all the holes I have.

[Ninepenny]

Remember the green little men that "weren't" russian soldiers?
We are in for a wait at least untill pro-russians acknowledge whatever happened if it doesnt portray Russia in a good light.

And a lot of them weren't russian soldiers. Many were from Sevastopol "Berkut".

***

What's this talk about separatists not allowing anyone to the crash site? They already said that will allow anyone to come - it's just that they don't want any humanitarian corridors or ceasefire with U. military.

[Yoshimitsu84]

Remember the green little men that "weren't" russian soldiers?
We are in for a wait at least untill pro-russians acknowledge whatever happened if it doesnt portray Russia in a good light.

you and some others might.
I don't understand the green men reference, I am sorry.
I personally am in for some normal and official valid information about what happened, how happened and who made it happen.

[Cairhiin]

Dutch death toll has been adjusted to 192.

What's this talk about separatists not allowing anyone to the crash site? They already said that will allow anyone to come - it's just that they don't want any humanitarian corridors or ceasefire with U. military.

They only allowed them to parts of the site, and after 75min they turned back to Donetsk as they did not receive full cooperation.

[Deleted]

Sorry, should have worded it differently. I used this one because it's the only one I could find in a short time - I used this as an example of some sort of defense system and to outline the relatively low costs.

My question was... do we have anything readily available that might help against radar controlled anti air missiles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)
seems to be cheap aswell dunno how efficient it is agianst modern missiles tho! also: the plane probably never knew it was target of a missile :/ so even with chaffs it would've been downed.

[XDurionX]

you and some others might.
I don't understand the green men reference, I am sorry.
I personally am in for some normal and official valid information about what happened, how happened and who made it happen.

The "green men" references the invasion of crimea, when russian soldiers wore no nationality markings, only their green uniforms, thus violating international law.

[Bolson13]

What's this talk about separatists not allowing anyone to the crash site? They already said that will allow anyone to come - it's just that they don't want any humanitarian corridors or ceasefire with U. military.

And yet inspectors arriving late in the afternoon were sent back by the separatists. The inspector himself has already confirmed it. The shot fired was not directed at them though but no access was given.

[Yoshimitsu84]

The "green men" references the invasion of crimea, when russian soldiers wore no nationality markings, only their green uniforms.

thanks for clarifying on the comment.
I see that he did not make any sense as i had thought

[Puupi]

The agency's motto is "To prevent. To rescue. To help."

From your own link. Did they just forget to put "To investigate"?. Or, "To determine the cause of mid-air explosions"?. Or is it more likely that they don't investigate? Yea...

They aren't investigators. Reps from the team sent to investigate have stated to multiple news sources that they have been denied access to most of the site. Making fun of how they're marking body's is pretty fuckin pathetic.

Still they are part of the official investigation team as they are taking care of the crash site; and by the looks of it the operation doesn't look very professional. I wasn't "making fun", I was pointing out a worrying sign.

[NYC17]

And a lot of them weren't russian soldiers. Many were from Sevastopol "Berkut".

***

What's this talk about separatists not allowing anyone to the crash site? They already said that will allow anyone to come - it's just that they don't want any humanitarian corridors or ceasefire with U. military.

OSCE monitors "did not have the kind of access that they expected" to the crash site, Reuters reports, quoting the organization's chairman.

"They did not have the kind of access that they expected. They did not have the freedom of movement that they need to do their job. The crash site is not sealed off," Thomas Greminger told Reuters by telephone.

"In the current circumstances, they were not able to help securing this corridor that would allow access for those that would want to investigate," he said.

Greminger said a team of 17 OSCE monitors had stayed at the crash site for about 75 minutes and was now returning to Donetsk. He said the team would try again on Saturday.

[nicetom4ya]

We all know who shot down the plane .. Ukrainian military, which was issued the order to shoot down the plane in order to escalate the conflict in the Ukraine. And the blame is passed on militias to further no reason to shoot at those who disagree with the current government of Ukraine.

Many say that there is "terrorists". But in fact, there really are fighting ordinary urban residents, who are now being bombed Ukrainian military. I work with two guys who came from Lugansk, they tell their friends went to "militia", and periodically with them and their families communicate. Nobody ever said that among them are Russian or anyone hired from Russia. There really ordinary people of the southeast, as experienced or not.

Meaningless to talk about that somewhere telling the truth and not somewhere. It's so clear that the TV works against specific countries. In this situation, it is Russia. And do not be a fool to understand that in this war, the United States ruled in Ukraine. I talked with refugees from Ukraine, and they do not support that power in their country, which is now ruled there. It's hard to believe but it's true. Many of the militia guys really believe in what they are defending their land, and that Russia ever help them.

[Skroe]

What Washington Post has published is nothing more than speculation just what we do here. No proof. It's just the same with Iraq's WMD, lots of talk but nothing more.

No. That's not speculation at all. Speculation is what countless threads all over the internet like this one have been engaged in up to this point. That report, my link (linked here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...fc2_story.html) is something new.

That is a report on the official US Intelligence position on the missile attack on MH-17. Now you can dispute their conclusions. But the Post isn't speculating. They're reporting what US Intelligence says they believe is going on. Why is that particularly relevant over say, the opinion of some schmucks on the internet? Because US intelligence's position will guide the US (and broader Western) response to this outrage. Schmucks on the internet's opinions end when they step away from the keyboard.

That's why "this matter" and it's different and it's not mere "speculation".

The "primary source" evidence I'm sure you want (but won't accept) will likely be out by the end of the weekend it looks like.

[XDurionX]

We all know who shot down the plane .. Ukrainian military, which was issued the order to shoot down the plane in order to escalate the conflict in the Ukraine. And the blame is passed on militias to further no reason to shoot at those who disagree with the current government of Ukraine.

Many say that there is "terrorists". But in fact, there really are fighting ordinary urban residents, who are now being bombed Ukrainian military. I work on two guys who came from Lugansk, they tell their friends went to "militia", and periodically with them and their families communicate. Nobody ever said that among them are Russian or anyone hired from Russia. There really ordinary people of the southeast, as experienced or not.

Meaningless to talk about that somewhere telling the truth and not somewhere. It's so clear that the TV works against specific countries. In this situation, it is Russia. And do not be a fool to understand that in this war, the United States ruled in Ukraine. I talked with refugees from Ukraine, and they do not support that power in their country, which is now ruled there. It's hard to believe but it's true. Many of the militia guys really believe in what they are defending their land, and that Russia ever help them.

Because "ordinary urban residents" tend to arm themselves and fight authoritites all the time in civilized countries.

[Teph]

We all know who shot down the plane .. Ukrainian military, which was issued the order to shoot down the plane in order to escalate the conflict in the Ukraine. And the blame is passed on militias to further no reason to shoot at those who disagree with the current government of Ukraine.

Oh. I thought it was the CIA that shot the plane. Thanks for telling me.

[StayTuned]

We all know who shot down the plane .. Ukrainian military, which was issued the order to shoot down the plane in order to escalate the conflict in the Ukraine. And the blame is passed on militias to further no reason to shoot at those who disagree with the current government of Ukraine.

Many say that there is "terrorists". But in fact, there really are fighting ordinary urban residents, who are now being bombed Ukrainian military. I work on two guys who came from Lugansk, they tell their friends went to "militia", and periodically with them and their families communicate. Nobody ever said that among them are Russian or anyone hired from Russia. There really ordinary people of the southeast, as experienced or not.

Meaningless to talk about that somewhere telling the truth and not somewhere. It's so clear that the TV works against specific countries. In this situation, it is Russia. And do not be a fool to understand that in this war, the United States ruled in Ukraine. I talked with refugees from Ukraine, and they do not support that power in their country, which is now ruled there. It's hard to believe but it's true. Many of the militia guys really believe in what they are defending their land, and that Russia ever help them.

Yea, Ukraine did it. That's why those... urban residents, with rockets and other high class military equipment... refuse a throughout investigation. Because they had nothing to do with it. Wow. Such innocent. Much conspiracy.

[Deleted]

We all know who shot down the plane .. Ukrainian military, which was issued the order to shoot down the plane in order to escalate the conflict in the Ukraine. And the blame is passed on militias to further no reason to shoot at those who disagree with the current government of Ukraine.

Many say that there is "terrorists". But in fact, there really are fighting ordinary urban residents, who are now being bombed Ukrainian military. I work with two guys who came from Lugansk, they tell their friends went to "militia", and periodically with them and their families communicate. Nobody ever said that among them are Russian or anyone hired from Russia. There really ordinary people of the southeast, as experienced or not.

Meaningless to talk about that somewhere telling the truth and not somewhere. It's so clear that the TV works against specific countries. In this situation, it is Russia. And do not be a fool to understand that in this war, the United States ruled in Ukraine. I talked with refugees from Ukraine, and they do not support that power in their country, which is now ruled there. It's hard to believe but it's true. Many of the militia guys really believe in what they are defending their land, and that Russia ever help them.

blablablabla only speculation, no proof.
0/10 wouldn't read agian