Individual player talk: skill, talent, and raiding psychology

[cabyio]

I really don't put much credit into what drug addicts say.
Just because they make good music they are not smart people.

Whether or not your time is wasted is a judgement for each individual person and no one else. You get to say, "That is a waste of my time." You don't get to say. "That is a waste of your time."

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Go to LFR.

See LFR players, in full LFR gear which must have taken months to get.

Check their dps, hps etc and compare it to what it possible in their gear. Is it close? No. Efforts there, will to get gear is there, talent isn't there.

Make a flex group. Invite literally anyone. Watch in awe as it fails because players aren't good enough to cope with immerseus flex.

make a CM group, take literally anyone, the first 5 responders. Watch as it fails because people can't play the game. And these are the people who will answer a trade chat announcement, the people who think they have what it takes.

Etc etc etc I suspect that like a lot of heroic raiders, you boot people who don't measure up by the dozen and then forget they exist. but they are all still out there, still not capable of playing the game they love very well.

Of course if you get a bunch of fresh people in a group they are going to fail at a raid boss. Most raid groups wipe a fair amount before everyone gets on the same page. You can't just throw new people into a raid and then say its proof they suck when they wipe on the first few pulls.

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Handwaving. Millions of people playing 20 hours or more a week, all trying to get better gear for themselves.

Not able to. Why not?

Getting better gear != improving your playing skill. You only improved your character, not you.

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I think it's because if the only difference is attitude, then it's ok to expect blizzard to only make hardcore content. Whereas if people are just talented on a bell curve, LFR etc has to exist.

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If they don't care about improving, why are they in LFR, getting gear?

The only point to getting gear is to improve your toon. So we got effort plus willingness, minus talent.

Once again, there is a difference between improving yourself and improving your toon.

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If you think the difference between usain Bolt and the guy behind him is his work rate you are wrong.

Given equal effort and luck, talent is the ONLY factor that matters.

Of course if you equal out effort and luck talent is the only factor that matters, thanks for the duh moment. The point is most people don't even come close to putting forth the same amount of effort as people who are amazing at things. You can't just handwave it and act like everyone is putting in the same effort.

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I'm sorry I'm not following your argument.

Are you saying that clearing LFR every week to get more epics so that your character is stronger doesn't show you want to get better?

If so what. the. fuck.

No, because you are only improving your character. Things that show you want to improve:

1. Looking up rotations and guides to learn how to squeeze more out of your character.
2. Practising different ways of doing things in game.
3. Adding to or switching up your addon setup to improve your awareness or ability to respond.

Getting better gear does not make you a better player.

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There you go again, assuming people know what to do, where to look and who to trust. lol


You sure? You've got that mindless "anyone can do it" Tony Robbins bullshit written all over you.....

Infracted. Stop insulting people you disagree with - Wilderness

That "you can do anything with enough effort" attitude is what made us the most powerful country in the world.

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If you got your info etc from someone else that's proof positive you dont have the natural talent to play the game.

Christ almighty, what is it with you people? You have to learn from someone else because you aren't good enough on your own and then state that the game is so easy anyone can do it. Even though you can't. lol

So all of a sudden if you receive help in any fashion then you can't be good at that thing?

[Deleted]

cabyio dont try and reason with Injin, it is a waiste of time.

[Deja Thoris]

Once again, there is a difference between improving yourself and improving your toon.

I agree with quite a lot of what Injin says but the above quote is true. Queuing for lfr is simply a means for most people to get gear for their characters. If they go in there with the express intent of perfecting a rotation or whatever you'd be right but in this case I think you're wrong.

[Deleted]

I agree with quite a lot of what Injin says but the above quote is true. Queuing for lfr is simply a means for most people to get gear for their characters. If they go in there with the express intent of perfecting a rotation or whatever you'd be right but in this case I think you're wrong.

My only contention was with the idea that people aren't looking to improve when they try to get gear.

I'll agree it's not an optimal strategy, but it is an indication of wanting to get better. My issue basically is with people wanting to frame the debate in such a way as their viewpoint becomes de facto true, simply because they won't allow any facts through which countermand it. Repeatedly doing LFR is an indication of trying to get better. It doesn't work, but so what?

I'd also answer cabyio but I got infracted for talking about the reality of winning and losing and so will not go there again.

[Abraxis]

it is not an indication of wanting to get better, it is an indication that you think with gear automatically comes dps.

If you're doing s.th. fundamentaly wrong, you'll do it with some points of itemlevel as well.

You're still mistake that getting your toon better gear, doesn't make you as person a better player. You're just hoping that gear would do this for you.

By doing the same over and over you're learning nothing, you're improving nothing for yourself. You just get itemlevel.


On my server i often get asked:

"at which itemlevel, which specc is the strongest?" so i tell them.

few days later the same person contact me again and i read:

"i did switch specc, but i am doing same/less damage?!?"

If i have time, i take it and ask them to show me their rota at the dummies.

It's hard to believe, but many (even Hc-starters) normal clear players doing so much wrong, that it's absolutely no miracle the new specc doesn't perform well for them.

They just think: "ok i got this itemlevel, i switch specc and will do skyrocket damage."

Many don't even know what all of their spells are doing.

As an example, there was a mage with 5/14hc who thought combustion just reset the CD timer of Infernoblast.

All of these players doing the same mistake, they're all thinking that itemlevel rules.

Noone of them got the attitude of really wanting to improve themselves. They think they improve by gearing as you do, but they won't. The only thing that happens that their itemlevel is carrying them a while, but they will never get really successful, because they're asking the wrong questions and are not really interessted in the "how" and in the "why".

[Deleted]

it is not an indication of wanting to get better, it is an indication that you think with gear automatically comes dps.

If you're doing s.th. fundamentaly wrong, you'll do it with some points of itemlevel as well.

You're still mistake that getting your toon better gear, doesn't make you as person a better player. You're just hoping that gear would do this for you.

.

It's an indication of wanting to get better, using a sub optimal strategy.

Just because someone is doing the wrong thing doesn't let you dismiss them as not trying, sorry.

(And again, please stop mistaking my outlining of what the vast, vast majority of the playerbase is doing with what i do myself, it's making my head hurt reading these "if you just do x and y" suggestions like I'm not already doing them.)

[Abraxis]

You still don't get it.

It's about YOU as person to get better not your TOON.

What do you improve for yourself by just gearing a toon but changing nothing? Tell me?

And as you don't get the difference your mindset is different.

And when i write "you", not all of it is peronal. "You" is ment for common plural as well or isn't it?
I am not an native english speaker.

Just because someone is doing the wrong thing doesn't let you dismiss them as not trying, sorry.

i never claimed they're not trying, i claimed thy're not doing.

[Deleted]

You still don't get it.

It's about YOU as person to get better not your TOON.

What do you improve for yourself by just gearing a toon but changing nothing? Tell me?

Not sure if serious - you improve your dps, hps and survivability by getting better gear. That's the entire basis of the game...

And as you don't get the difference your mindset is different.

And when i write "you", not all of it is peronal. "You" is ment for common plural as well or isn't it?
I am not an native english speaker.



i never claimed they're not trying, i claimed thy're not doing.

Then we agree, why the fuck are you going on about it?

lol

I said - people are trying but not using the right strategy. This means they are trying - expending effort. They are not lazy, just clueless.

[Abraxis]

but that means they don't have the right mindset/attitude to succeed, doesn't it?

Not sure if serious - you improve your dps, hps and survivability by getting better gear. That's the entire basis of the game...

perfect example for the wrong mindset

just clueless

because they don't care about the right things, if they had the right attitude they weren't clueless

[Deleted]

but that means they don't have the right mindset/attitude to succeed, doesn't it?

You mean the right talent?

perfect example for the wrong mindset

Not wrong though, is it?

because they don't care about the right things, if they had the right attitude they weren't clueless

What "attitude" is this you are referring to? Effort is there, willingness is there.

if you mean intelligence, adapatability, flexibility, learning ability etc - than I have news for you - those things are talents. Natural gifts.

[Abraxis]

Not wrong though, is it?

The thread is about raiding at very high level if you look at the startpost, and that's what we're talking about here. And of course it is the wrong one for that.

What "attitude" is this you are referring to? Effort is there, willingness is there.

if you mean intelligence, adapatability, flexibility, learning ability etc - than I have news for you - those things are talents. Natural gifts.

- Asking more successful people is a talent?

- Looking at logs is a talent?

- Practising is a talent?

- Reading the dungeon journal, watching streams/videos, reading guides is a talent?

- The will to understand mechanics, skills, rotas etc. is a talent?

I refer to an attitude to always challenge yourself to take you to a higher level, to get to the hardest challenges ingame. Never be pleased if you know there is something more. Take criticism into something constructive and not being mad about it.

Noone is born with all the knowledge. Not everyone is that good at maths that he could do all the tc for himself. But being interested in it, wanting to get the infos you need, asking peolpe who have the knowledge, questioning yourself, wanting more to see than just LFR.

if you mean intelligence, adapatability, flexibility, learning ability etc - than I have news for you - those things are talents. Natural gifts.

Everything you mentioned except intelligence is trainable.

[Keashaa]

<3 Abraxis

[Deleted]

The thread is about raiding at very high level if you look at the startpost, and that's what we're talking about here. And of course it is the wrong one for that.



- Asking more successful people is a talent?

Yep.

- Looking at logs is a talent?

Damn right it is.

- Practising is a talent?

They already are practising, it just doesn't translate into increases in performance because DUN DUN DUn they don't have the talent required.

- Reading the dungeon journal, watching streams/videos, reading guides is a talent?

Absolutely is.

- The will to understand mechanics, skills, rotas etc. is a talent?

No, the ability to understand is a talent. The will is already there.

I refer to an attitude to always challenge yourself to take you to a higher level, to get to the hardest challenges ingame. Never be pleased if you know there is something more. Take criticism into something constuctive and not being mad about it.

That's inborn, a talent. You cannot acquire it by reading about it. if you could everyone would be chuck fucking yaeger.

Noone is born with all the knowledge. Not everyone is that good at maths that he could do all the tc for himself. But being interested in it, wanting to get the infos you need, asking peolpe who have the knowledge, questioning yourself, wanting more to see than just LFR.

What? People ARE born with math ability. They can practice, but how good they are and can become is inborn, fixed.

Everything you mentioned except intelligence is trainable.

Nope.

[Abraxis]

Just lol, sry but you have to be a troll.

You're like:

"not everyone can be a slim, athletic person because, to know there is a gym or sports is a talent. Asking athletic people how they got there is a talent......."


Just, lol...

[Deleted]

Injin ill try and explain this for you.

If you get gear from LFR it doesnt automaticly mean that you as a person who is pressing the buttons gets better.
You might do the exact same thing as the week before. You'd might heal more, but this is because your iLvl went up and there for have better stats.
This way you are improving you Character.

If you raid LFR and dont get better gear, but you do heal more than the last week because you changed something in your rotation for example.
This means you are getting better as a person. Because the only factor that has changed is that you changed something about how you do it.

Does this clarify what Abraxis means?

[dixincide]

Don't over think it.
Get your character optimized (min/maxed)
Have time to play
Have some form of raid awareness and know the fights in advance.
And spend some time reading your spellbook to know which spells mesh and how to do your rotation; worst case read a guide. (I figured this last point was obvious but after reading others pointing it out I had to add it in)

It's more about group coordination than anything.

[Deleted]

Just lol, sry but you have to be a troll.

Nope, I just like (and have) facts.

You're like:

"not everyone can be a slim, athletic person because, to know there is a gym or sports is a talent. Asking athletic people how they got there is a talent......."


Just, lol...

Not everyone can be a slim athletic person because of genetics. I certainly can't be slim and atheltic, i'm naturally built like a brick shithouse. Lifting heavy things i can do. Running around a lot, not so much.

find it completely mystifying why you think these differences occur in athletics, intelligence, personality etc in all other spheres on human endeavour but not in gaming.

next you'll be telling me koreans rock at starcraft just because american players are lazy. lol

[Deleted]

Nope, I just like (and have) facts.


Not everyone can be a slim athletic person because of genetics. I certainly can't be slim and atheltic, i'm naturally built like a brick shithouse. Lifting heavy things i can do. Running around a lot, not so much.

find it completely mystifying why you think these differences occur in athletics, intelligence, personality etc in all other spheres on human endeavour but not in gaming.

next you'll be telling me koreans rock at starcraft just because american players are lazy. lol

Injin we have tried to many times to explain what we mean to you now.
I really am starting to think that you are just here to troll.

There is a difference in beign slim/atleathic and beign some sport god..
If you have the will to do so you are able too. (unless you have some disease which just doesnt let you).

[Deleted]

Injin we have tried to many times to explain what we mean to you now.
I really am starting to think that you are just here to troll.

There is a difference in beign slim/atleathic and beign some sport god..
If you have the will to do so you are able too. (unless you have some disease which just doesnt let you).

I dont have some "disease" i've got this massive ribcage and wide shoulders made of bone which means slim is off the menu. Picking up heavy objects is very much ON the menu though!

I can be slim, as in i can drop my body fat right down to low %ages, but i'll never be a slim build, nor will I ever be athletic.

The same is true the other way around for my sister, she's tall and thin and can run all day. Lifting things she isn't going to ever be any good for.

Unreal you think that these sorts of differences don't occur at the neurological level, it really is.

[Deleted]

I dont have some "disease" i've got this massive ribcage and wide shoulders made of bone which means slim is off the menu. Picking up heavy objects is very much ON the menu though!

I can be slim, as in i can drop my body fat right down to low %ages, but i'll never be a slim build, nor will I ever be athletic.

The same is true the other way around for my sister, she's tall and thin and can run all day. Lifting things she isn't going to ever be any good for.

Unreal you think that these sorts of differences don't occur at the neurological level, it really is.

There is a difference in what people call slim. even with broad shoulders you can still be slim.
Me for example if I dont workout I am a little small guy who ways less then 60kgs. But when I work out and keep by body fit and eat a lot of food I am able to get my body weight up to 80kg while still maintaining 13% body fat.

You sir really live in your own world.... You are beyond understanding. Have you been abused as a kid or what?

Infracted - Insults don't help anything - Wilderness