Hybrids and utility

[Anetulan]

Their goal is to have all dps classes have similar raid utility. Priests' VE is a small raid healing cooldown, similar to that of mages new amplify magic. They work a bit differently, but they still serve the same basic purpose. Their goal is to also have all dps do similar damage. On live, shadow is indeed one of the weaker single target dps. But if they tune it right, then in WoD mages and shadow priest will be about equal, perhaps one doing better in certain situations, but as a whole balancing out. Their next beta build will include the start of their tuning passes, so if you see mages being ahead of shadow there, then you have a reason to complain.

[buffalowbie]

As far as I'm concerned all the incoming shadow changes are fixes that should have happened a year ago. The spec has a flaw that blizzard didn't care to fix.

You seriously want me to believe that mages need to be given similar treatment? They aren't broken.

ETA: Also, telling me to "stop" is very rude. This is my opinion, I have a right to expressing it as much as anyone else does.

[brookllyn]

As far as I'm concerned all the incoming shadow changes are fixes that should have happened a year ago. The spec has a flaw that blizzard didn't care to fix.

They are (at least attempting, we will see how tuning goes) fixing them now. Are you seriously complaining about the past now? There is nothing to do but look forward now.

ETA: Also, telling me to "stop" is very rude. This is my opinion, I have a right to expressing it as much as anyone else does.

I am also expressing my opinion, and my opinion is that you should at least have a vague idea of the actual changes in WoD before you preemptively complain about how OP mages are. I don't mean to be rude here, but you aren't being constructive, you are just talking about your personal experience(with only *one* raid group mind you) and how that shouldn't happen in WoD.

[Dierdre]

Mages had 0 raid utility before they added amp magic

To be fair, that was more an encounter design flaw than a class design one. Historically mages and hunters have been kings of add management and control. MoP encounters just didn't require them except for very rare exceptions (Will of the Emperor comes to mind).

It's pretty much the same case as with mass dispel and void shift. They're awesome... when they're needed... which is never. Hopefully with mythic and flex tech encounters can be designed to exploit classes to their full potential.

[Blackmorgrim]

Another thing to keep in mind is that 1 shadowpriest now also brings 3 raid buffs: 5% haste, 5% multistrike, and 10% Stamina.

Also, I'd actually think that amplify magic is useful synergy for us. VE is a good raid cooldown still. However, amplify magic is only as good as the healing going out at the time. If anything, I could easily see it being called for Amp magic and VE to go out at the same time, since both effect raid within 100 yards.

[Dierdre]

Another thing to keep in mind is that 1 shadowpriest now also brings 3 raid buffs: 5% haste, 5% multistrike, and 10% Stamina.

Also, I'd actually think that amplify magic is useful synergy for us. VE is a good raid cooldown still. However, amplify magic is only as good as the healing going out at the time. If anything, I could easily see it being called for Amp magic and VE to go out at the same time, since both effect raid within 100 yards.

Problem is VE is only as strong as your damage is at the time. You can pop Amp. Magic when needed without having to think twice about it and you lose nothing (ok you lose one GCD...). For VE to be optimal you have to pool resources, delay, damage non-priority targets, etc. to maximize damage during VE, so it's still (even if minor) a dps loss.

[brookllyn]

To be fair, that was more an encounter design flaw than a class design one. Historically mages and hunters have been kings of add management and control. MoP encounters just didn't require them except for very rare exceptions (Will of the Emperor comes to mind).

It's pretty much the same case as with mass dispel and void shift. They're awesome... when they're needed... which is never. Hopefully with mythic and flex tech encounters can be designed to exploit classes to their full potential.

And I was being a bit overly dramatic with that, but it's is hard to say that add management is required utility in today's raid world.

I definitely think they are moving towards balancing(at least mythic) around having access to many different classes and they will allow encounters to require certain abilities. I think they will watch it play out for the first tier and see how one sized mythic goes but you already you can see how some spots where they let certain classes shine. For example, the DPS check in mythic blackhand P1 will almost definitely require a leap of faith or two in order to avoid a tank death, especially at progression gear levels.

[Dierdre]

Another thing to keep in mind is that 1 shadowpriest now also brings 3 raid buffs: 5% haste, 5% multistrike, and 10% Stamina

Sporebat, warlock, warlock.

[sonshinegreene]

Ahhh, glad to see that this debates still going on. Let's beat the dead horse some more!

Seriously, relax and chill man. It's just a game, so play it for fun. Make friends and raid with them, you won't lose your spot to a "Pure" with better dps, or a "Hybrid" with better utility. Bring the player not the class!

[mindp]

So many pissing matches on these forums lately, and I'm enjoying my popcorn.

[Blackmorgrim]

Problem is VE is only as strong as your damage is at the time. You can pop Amp. Magic when needed without having to think twice about it and you lose nothing (ok you lose one GCD...). For VE to be optimal you have to pool resources, delay, damage non-priority targets, etc. to maximize damage during VE, so it's still (even if minor) a dps loss.

The solution to this is something called Coordination, most organized raid groups tend to have it. ;D

[Dierdre]

The solution to this is something called Coordination, most organized raid groups tend to have it. ;D

Is that a new stat that reduces your orb generator cooldowns and aligns them to damage spikes? Because otherwise you do have to either pool and delay or cast crappy VEs.

[Blackmorgrim]

AS- no such thing really as pooling... atm you're always in burst mode
VEnt- there's not much burst in the build at all, but you'll almost always have tons of consistant damage going around outside single target.
CoP- Burst windows are every 18 seconds, and you have almost a 12 second swing afterwards. There's more than enough leeway there if you have an idea of when the burst damage is coming.

So really, coordination and awareness is really all you need if you know how to play. Not saying it would be as useful if all you raid is LFR.

Then again in WoD LFR... you'll be able to clear bosses by using a drinking bird on your MF key.

[Dierdre]

AS- no such thing really as pooling... atm you're always in burst mode
VEnt- there's not much burst in the build at all, but you'll almost always have tons of consistant damage going around outside single target.
CoP- Burst windows are every 18 seconds, and you have almost a 12 second swing afterwards. There's more than enough leeway there if you have an idea of when the burst damage is coming.

AS: We still don't know how orb generation will end up after tuning, but you will still pool (or be bad).
VEnt: Mind harvest and 5-orb pool apart, you have the same burst cycle as on live.

So really, coordination and awareness is really all you need if you know how to play. Not saying it would be as useful if all you raid is LFR.

Even though orb generation is faster in general and you'll have the ability to pool 5 orbs, you still won't control when your trinkets/enchants will proc, which is when you'll want to dump your stored orbs; so no matter how good you think you are, you'll pool for either procs OR for VE. If you're extremely lucky they'll overlap. If you're just lucky you'll cast VE and pool again before your trinkets proc. Otherwise you end up either losing dps or casting mediocre VEs.

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Tears to fue... Wait what?

As far as I'm concerned all the incoming shadow changes are fixes that should have happened a year ago. The spec has a flaw that blizzard didn't care to fix.

You seriously want me to believe that mages need to be given similar treatment? They aren't broken.

ETA: Also, telling me to "stop" is very rude. This is my opinion, I have a right to expressing it as much as anyone else does.

Stop, you need to complain about warlocks instead!

[Blackmorgrim]

Well Dierdre... now that you're saying you can't usehealing raid cooldowns until trinkets proc... I just realized you've been trolling me this whole time. Shame on you!

[Gisen]

You can't balance classes around bringing lust due to the limit of the cooldown (one per raid yo) so if you balance a class around bringing lust it would suck to bring more than 1 class with lust.

- - - Updated - - -

AS: We still don't know how orb generation will end up after tuning, but you will still pool (or be bad).
VEnt: Mind harvest and 5-orb pool apart, you have the same burst cycle as on live.



Even though orb generation is faster in general and you'll have the ability to pool 5 orbs, you still won't control when your trinkets/enchants will proc, which is when you'll want to dump your stored orbs; so no matter how good you think you are, you'll pool for either procs OR for VE. If you're extremely lucky they'll overlap. If you're just lucky you'll cast VE and pool again before your trinkets proc. Otherwise you end up either losing dps or casting mediocre VEs.

Doesn't devouring refresh VE?

[Blackmorgrim]

VE = Vampiric Embrace, VEnt = Void Entropy

[Qualia]

During my 9 years of playing WoW, this is the first time I see a person, regardless of class, call Lust (Warp / Heroism) a raid CD. I know we have a lot to complain about, some are justified, some are not, but have we stooped this low? <insert trollface emoticon>

@Dierdre: you are under assumption that VE as a CD is balanced around out burst, or raids planned VE with that in mind. To my knowledge, the first may or may not be true, and the second is wrong for most raids. Your "mediocre" VE, even by now with our current DPS level, is good enough as a minor cd for DPS

[Noradin]

Heroism always was a raid CD, and why not?
Before MoP it was used for this quite a few times and in a sense it is the "original raid CD", the prototype. In MoP we just had no need to use it that way (that I can remember on the top of my head).