[Mage] Our identity, do you feel like the master of magics?

[mrgreenthump]

I'm a sentimental fool at times.. and today I just couldn't get vanilla out of my mind.. Oh such good memories. Anyways I have a point with this(it's coming).

But all this got me thinking what the old 2004 manual said(had to dig it up, didn't remember though that the early version of came with 4 cd's and the later one with 5), also yes I save everything I buy.

Anywho, the definition goes(in the original manual): The mage is a master of powerful mystic energies, able to use magic in the most spectacular and destructive ways. Mages are a fragile class, with little health and poor fighting ability. However, they make up for this physical weakness with their awesome spellcasting. Mages can dish out the most ranged damage in the shortest of time.

I mean sure times have changed and the definition of Mages has changed in the later manuals quite a bit, but somehow I feel there's nothing left of this. We ain't most spectacular, ain't most destructive, don't really have any more awesome spellcasting than anyone else. Mage is the magic class, but somehow we just aren't "magical" anymore, we just are one of the casters. So sort of what am trying to say is that I feel that Mage has no class identity anymore, sure we still got portals, which still haven't been given to others. But I just don't feel like an unique snowflake anymore. Hell I feel more like a Mage in HS than in WoW atm.. And that sort is sad, as there is a lot more in the lore to tap from.

This is a somewhat new thread on this forum as it really doesn't have a one clear direction, just sort of a chat of the past, the current and the future of Mages, but can be please keep this clean anyways. Just a relax chat on Magey stuff, as long as it relates to this post. Also this is not a place to suggest specific changes(at least not a list of 20 of them), just general direction and stuff. Lets not make this the trash bin of Mage forum though.

(Also yes this is my first official thread ever if you don't count the sticky on this forum )

[TheWorkingTitle]

snip

I've always felt like a master of magics. Creating portals for armies to run through and appear seemingly thousands of miles away in an instant, conjuring food and water out of thin air, turning foes into innocent creatures, calling upon the 3 sects of the Arcane magic to vanquish enemies and aid allies, and being a Swiss-army-knife of any situation was what drew me to creating the Mage class and has kept me playing ever since.

I too feel like we've lost quite a bit of our identity though. We were called "Glass Cannons" back in Classic and for very justified reasons. My AQ 40/Naxx raid group had anywhere from 7-10 mages and my AB/WSG Pre-made group always had at least 3. We were coveted for our water/food, our long range spells, our crowd control, and our tide-swaying burst/dps.

I'll scrounge through my old USB drives and find some of my PvP videos from 60 for you guys. There was a small window frame of time where we were able to use the Zandalari Hero Charm (Hakkar heart quest) and the Talisman of Ephemeral Power (from MC) to easily get over 1,000 spell power (which was absolutely absurd at 60), and to mix that in with Arcane Power, Berzerking Buff from WSG, and a priest's Power Infusion I was one-shotting ANYONE with a crit range of around 5-9k. 2k Arcane Explosions, 1k+ fireblasts, 4k+ fireballs, and Pyroblast being the king of spells. we really did instill fear in anyone when that molten ball of lava came flying out of our hands. That broken "I.W.I.N." button that you can still loot from AV corpses? That was real my friends.


On topic of raiding, I miss "rolling ignites" dearly. By this I mean that the ignite DoT was a singular DoT that was applied to a boss or mob by the first Mage to crit with a fire spell. Every subsequent crit (by any Mage in the raid group) fed this DoT and kept it going. The group of Mages in my guild were a brotherhood and the synergy and comradeship we shared is next to nothing else I've experienced in this game since. Yes we had a "scorch bitch" or two but they knew their role, willingly accepted it (due to being newer to the raid group, or lesser geared) and played it to their utmost. We pulled for each other, were happy when each other got loot (especially over our healthy warlock competition in guild), passed gear to each other when we knew it'd be for a greater good (i.e 5 great geared mages >2 insanely geared mages) and talked and theory-crafted about our class til the late hours of the night in our own Mage channels. We were consistently top DPS and what struck me most thinking back was that no other dps class had a problem with that. Those other dps classes knew that they themselves brought something else entirely unique to the raid and (just because they weren't doing the highest DPS) knew their role was just as vital and important.

The class homogenization really just put a damper on the whole essence of this game. There's different types of people in this world, and there was different types of roles for them to choose from and play. Now (more or less) everyone can virtually do the same thing. It's just a different name, a different color, and a different graphic all leading to the same result.

Where are we headed? I don't want to jump to conclusions but my initial gut-reaction is not a good one. The WoD beta makes me feel like I'm perpetually stuck in a leveling phase waiting for more spells to be learned, only there's nothing more to gain. Maybe there's more iterations to come and tweaks to our damage but I don't think we'll be back to being the "masters of magic" until we're able to use all 3 sects of Arcane Magic as we have been able to since the start. Enjoy the rest of MoP while you can, just in case.

[OvertThief]

Figure I'd throw my 2 cents in. I really dont feel like much of a mage these days. The idea of a mage is a person who has some innate ability or understanding to manipulate vast and chaotic energies around them. Sure we have spells like Timewarp and and portals and whatnot, but this has really yet to translate over to our specs. Arcane feels like the most "mage" spec imo. Fire/frost however dont make a whole lot of sense. It feels like I am a highly specialized shaman. My biggest hope for the class is for each spec to help give the class a unique feel to it. Maybe replace fire/frost with time/space specs?

[Polarthief]

As of lately? Not really, no. When I play another class, like say, Shaman, I definitely do feel like a master of nature/elements. Maybe it's because I use pretty much all schools in one spec, but it doesn't feel so overdone to the point where it really annoys you. Elemental and Enhancement in particular cultivate lightning (a form of Nature) and Fire, though do have some levels of Water (Frost). Restoration uses Nature and Water (Frost) based healing, and even do incorporate a bit of Fire and lightning (again, another form of Nature). Mages, while we tend to stick to one school, don't really have the same feel. It's either full Arcane or full Fire/Frost with some Arcane utility (and one Frostfire spell as Frost).

Looking at other casters, I see Warlock as a good example that makes use of their schools (well, Affliction lacks a little). Affliction doesn't utilize Fire, but it does Shadow and DoTs well, and also incorporates pets in a way. Demonology mixes both Fire and Shadow, as well as heavy pet usage, and even mixes ALL of the elements (including Holy and Physical) in Demon Form. Destruction uses Fire, Shadow, and pets. Druids bring Arcane (the moon) and Nature (the sun and other forms of Nature), and keep a healthy balance between the two. Restoration Druids also use both Natural and a touch of Water-based healing.

I just feel like for a class that "masters" 3 different schools, with Arcane being the "grand" school of raw Magic, I don't feel like we're what we're described as. Shadow Priests are the only other caster that fit this as well, as they too are very limited in what they do: Shadow, and nothing more.


That may have been just an awful lot of rambling, but it's just how I feel *shrug*.

[eem5]

I'll scrounge through my old USB drives and find some of my PvP videos from 60 for you guys. There was a small window frame of time where we were able to use the Zandalari Hero Charm (Hakkar heart quest) and the Talisman of Ephemeral Power (from MC) to easily get over 1,000 spell power (which was absolutely absurd at 60), and to mix that in with Arcane Power, Berzerking Buff from WSG, and a priest's Power Infusion I was one-shotting ANYONE with a crit range of around 5-9k. 2k Arcane Explosions, 1k+ fireblasts, 4k+ fireballs, and Pyroblast being the king of spells. we really did instill fear in anyone when that molten ball of lava came flying out of our hands. That broken "I.W.I.N." button that you can still loot from AV corpses? That was real my friends.

Ouch, I remember being on the receiving end of this in AV a lot.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

We're turning into Elementalists. That's certain. The whole spec specific talents is proof of that.

[Polarthief]

We're turning into Elementalists. That's certain. The whole spec specific talents is proof of that.

Actually, I think we're turning into the opposite. The spec-specific talents prove that we're NOT elementalists, such as Warlocks, Shamans, and Druids.

[TheWorkingTitle]

We're turning into Elementalists. That's certain. The whole spec specific talents is proof of that.

Whatever it is, it sure doesn't feel like a Mage anymore. I'd say Elementalist would be a Frost/Fire hybrid which was possible during TBC and I actually got pretty far in the 2's/3's ladder as one. It incorporated Blastwave, Iceblock, Ice Barrier, and some tech Fire talents. There's a video of a guy that inspired me to do it..I'll have to dig it up.

On a further note, does anyone have any confirmations as to why they're completely overhauling our class design? Any explanations or anything? Either I missed some tweets or they just decided to do this and said nothing about why.

[Polarthief]

On a further note, does anyone have any confirmations as to why they're completely overhauling our class design? Any explanations or anything? Either I missed some tweets or they just decided to do this and said nothing about why.

Overhauling the class design without actually overhauling how the class works. It's sad, really. As to why, no, they just said they didn't want us multidotting.

[Pull My Finger]

Some people are able to read a ton into one tiny sentence.

I guess this is one of those things were you'd have to understand that it is an opinion that's so extremely vague, vaporous, inconcrete and subjective that there's nothing Blizzard or anyone else could do about it. It's just something that's ... well, in your head, I don't know how to say it better. "I don't feel magical enough". What's that supposed to be. What are they supposed to do? Give you 5% more damage than all other classes? Reduce the SFX and audio of all other classes' spells to make yours look and sound way cooler and more magical?

It's just ... it doesn't hold any water. But certain people will hop on to it, because they always do no matter what.

[Polarthief]

It's just ... it doesn't hold any water. But certain people will hop on to it, because they always do no matter what.

I'd say lacking any depth and class identity outside of Group Vending Machine and Taxi is a pretty important thing to fix.

[Pull My Finger]

I'd say lacking any depth and class identity outside of Group Vending Machine and Taxi is a pretty important thing to fix.

That's exactly what I mean. "Lacking any depth" - that doesn't hold any water. It doesn't mean anything. It's just something people say, for whatever reason, because they want to complain but would rather avoid having to be concrete, I guess. What is "depth"? What do you expect? What is this "depth" you see in other classes that the mage is mystically missing?

Know what I mean? It's just an empty catch phrase as it stands now.

Stuff like "class identity outside of Group Vending Machine", on the other hand - that's the type of talk that should, seriously, just go away. Because it's unconstructive, polemic, and, if I may add, plain silly and incorrect. It's of no use - useless as "feedback", useless to other players.

Again, I don't know what you expect. The mage is a fully functional class, aptly capable of performing what is expected from it, while providing significant utility to the group. I don't know what else you might expect, besides being way better than any other class so that any raid leader or group would only approach you on their knees. That's a silly expectation. The design goal isn't to make classes and people indispensable and irreplaceable, and hasn't been for several years. Rightfully so, because it can't be the right design goal for a multiplayer game. If that's your problem, I suggest reconsidering your expectations. I'm only assuming here, mind you - what else can one do, considering the vagueness.

Bottom line: people very often complain over nothing and get hung up on things they can't argue conclusively. They tend to assume by default that something's "wrong" on design level instead of realising that sometimes it's just their attitude, unreasonable expectations or just plain subjective perspective on things.

This is the reason why people get angry with Blizzard - or other companies - and get the feeling that their wishes and feedback are getting dismissed, or that the team just isn't capable of "getting it right". It's because the quality of these players' observations and their feedback, as well as their level of concrete objectivity and constructive thinking, is lacking and of no exploitable use.

[Polarthief]

Stuff like "class identity outside of Group Vending Machine", on the other hand - that's the type of talk that should, seriously, just go away. Because it's unconstructive, polemic, and, if I may add, plain silly and incorrect. It's of no use - useless as "feedback", useless to other players.

So a silly thread is unconstructive, but arguing on a silly thread isn't? Alright.

I'm sorry if you feel differently about Mage than I (and others here), but I don't understand why I should just completely shut up about it because you don't think it's worth anyone's time.

Again, I don't know what you expect. The mage is a fully functional class, aptly capable of performing what is expected from it, while providing significant utility to the group.

Apparently you haven't seen Fire on the beta, and "significant utility to the group"? Alright. Can't really read past this, especially when you're going to get serious (and be blatantly incorrect) over such light talk.

[Deleted]

Just offtopic - my very first toon i leveled was a paladin. Spend like 2 months to level it and gear it for raiding. Well atleast to a degree that my raidleader to take me. As every noob stepping into his first raiding encounter i died mid fight and spend the rest of the fight on the ground. What i saw when i looked around was the only mage at that time of the guild. I must admit i still remember the view - arcane mage weaving his arcane missles and barrages (well it was shame that arcane balst doesn't have flying animation), blinking around and nuking the hell out of the boss (he was the top dps of the guild by a good margin). Right after the raid i made my mage and barely looked back at my pally for a several months ahead.

Anywho, the definition goes(in the original manual): The mage is a master of powerful mystic energies, able to use magic in the most spectacular and destructive ways. Mages are a fragile class, with little health and poor fighting ability. However, they make up for this physical weakness with their awesome spellcasting. Mages can dish out the most ranged damage in the shortest of time.

For me this above described the arcane spec for me.
For me the arcane spec is the only mage spec that yell for me "I am mage!". Portals are in the arcane book. Polymorf is in the arcane spell book. Blink is in the arcane spell book. Counterspell is in the arcane spell book. Arcane brilliance is in the arcane spell book. Mirror Images are in the arcane spell book. Mana shield in the arcane spell book. Almost all the mage iconic spells are in the damn arcane spell book.

Well it was interesting to have flame strike, fireblast, fireball, frostfire bolt, blizzard, cone of cold and ice lance when speced arcane or arcane explosion as fire/frost, but they were never on action bar. Same was for when i played fire or frost. I tended to put only spec related spells on my action bar. From my PoV it was looking really superretarded while im spaming pyros, scorches, fireballs etc and then suddenly - a wild frost nova/cone of cold/deepfreeze. Wtf really?!? My target of wrath is on fire... melting... and i suddenly try to freeze it down?!? It feels to me like im playing basketball and then suddenly i kick the ball with foot and try to score...

I want, to the very least, each spec to have spells that were similar in effect or mechanic, rather using spells from the other schools to achieve the purpose for which im gonna use them. Kinda like it will be in WoD. For me that is the meaning of the word "specialization", even if its gonna be the same spell with only different color/animation with different requirements to use and or a little variation what is the additional effect. Maybe. I don't know. I don't care. As long as i don't need to use frost spell as fire speced mage or arcane as fire/frost. This is what kill the feeling of xxxxxx mage. But now with that ability "pruning" and the spec specific tallents i believe i will have more mage feel in the next expansion

[LocNess]

Eh. At times yes, at times no. I think Frost overall is really solid and the theme is great. I think Arcane and Fire are both lackluster in that they are not flashy enough which sucks. I would love to see more "Time" magic intertwined into Arcane if possible, and as Fire when I cast Pyroblast I want a damn Meteor to shoot out of my hands at the target, not a tiny boulder. Also I think Inferno Blast tripped up Fire's flow for myself and I find it awkward to put in the rotation, as it just feels like a "active Hot Streak" button. Would honestly rather have it like Flame Shock/Lava Burst. Or have Inferno Blast with a CD of 15sec and put a debuff of "increase crit damage by 25% on this target for 6 sec". But I digress.

We are certainly not as flashy as other classes, but I still feel like we hold "glass cannon" fairly well, and I love having that. I also would rather keep our specializations separate. I hate GW2 "Elementalist" and how you can switch on the fly. Just give each spec more of its own flavour and keep them differentiated.

[Deleted]

In Pandaria I don't feel like a mage or better: I don't feel like my personal imagination how a mage should be. I never thought of mages as a DoT-intensive class with lots of mobility and this is one of the reasons I lost a lot of fun playing my mage lately (I am still thinking about Retribution Paladin or Mage (Frost) for WoD getting crazy about that ._.).
I love mages casting powerful spells that hit your enemy in their face and blasting/melting/freezing them. I like powerful direct spells that do a lot of damage instead of slowly killing DoTs. If I want that, I would play a warlock or shadow. And I think mages (or casters altogether) shouldn't be too mobile. Standing and casting is fine with me, because I grew up with that image of mages.
Therefore I am looking forward to WoD because it will be closer to my personal image of mages again. I like specialization on one spell school, maybe using some cross-spells like Frostfirebolt, because that would show some flexibility in the mages powers. Talents like Meteor and Comet Storm are nice and powerful looking spells (FF14 Black Mage Limit ftw ). But I'm afraid that the class won't be fun at the end if Blizzard tunes it the wrong way. And if the class isn't fun to play, even a soul of the class that fits to me won't help anymore.

[mrgreenthump]

This is the reason why people get angry with Blizzard - or other companies - and get the feeling that their wishes and feedback are getting dismissed, or that the team just isn't capable of "getting it right". It's because the quality of these players' observations and their feedback, as well as their level of concrete objectivity and constructive thinking, is lacking and of no exploitable use.

So, you didn't even care to read my OP it seems. This thread has absolute ZERO to do with feedback. I ain't going to use the discussion of this thread for anything. It's just a talk between Mages on our beloved class. Furthermore this is the Mage forum, it's not a feedback forum for Mages. While there is a chance that a Blizzard emplyee reads this, it certainly doesn't mean every single thread in here has to be 100% feedback towards improving Mages. Also this is the only thread on this forum that is this vague. I made it that by design, here we can pull out our tinfoil hats out and just post what we FEEL.

You certainly don't have to join to this discussion if you feel it ain't worth your time.. And that goes for everyone.

[Icathian]

In the warcraft universe the mage class focus way too much on the elements, they should just call it an elementalist. I mean, what's the difference between a pyroblast and a lava burst? I'm sure that there's a technical explanation for it, but in the end both of them are just balls of fire.

To me in a perfect world, the mage class would have 3 specs: elementalist (fire, frost etc), black magic (shadow, void magic) and blood/life magic (life drain, etc). The problem is that all those specs are already in another classes like priest and warlock. So yes, at least in the warcraft universe mages were never "the master of magics" IMO, unless they made specs based around arcane only, which is the only thing unique to them.

[Polarthief]

In the warcraft universe the mage class focus way too much on the elements, they should just call it an elementalist. I mean, what's the difference between a pyroblast and a lava burst? I'm sure that there's a technical explanation for it, but in the end both of them are just balls of fire.

One calls up the liquid magma from the earth (the azeroth? I don't quite know the word we would use for WoW lingo in this case), and the other, well, is a rock you picked up and magically set on fire. From a damage standpoint, yes, they are balls of fire, but they're significantly differently in how they actually work.

To me in a perfect world, the mage class would have 3 specs: elementalist (fire, frost etc), black magic (shadow, void magic) and blood/life magic (life drain, etc). The problem is that all those specs are already in another classes like priest and warlock. So yes, at least in the warcraft universe mages were never "the master of magics" IMO, unless they made specs based around arcane only, which is the only thing unique to them.

That actually would be kinda cool. If they kept the Blood Mage aspect we had in Cataclysm's Beta (Fire had a talent that lets you use your health for mana if you were out of mana, called "Burnout"), then it COULD have evolved into these kinds of levels, but we'll never see something like this in WoW's current model.

[Deleted]

The problem with "master of magic" is the definition of magic. In Azeroth we have more than one form.
- Arcane Magic (Arcane, Fire, Frost)
- Fel Magic
- Divine Magic (Light/Shadow, too, as the opposite I think?)
- Nature Magic
- Rune magic is used by dwarfs in storm peaks if i remember correctly.

I like Icathians suggestion, but it wouldn't fit to the mage class lorewise. Mages in Warcraft are masters of arcane magic and therefore masters of arcane, frost and fire. Sadly there is no big difference between those spell schools enginewise. But lorewise Priests and Warlocks are using different spell schools.
The sames goes for Druids and Shamans. Mages and Druids don't use the same arcane spells and Mages and Shamans aren't using the same frost or fire spells.
That means:
Is Mage a master of magic? No because there are different spell schools. Is Mage a master of arcane magic? Yes, because he is specialized on at least one of three parts of the arcane magic spell school.