Rejoice, rejoice, Blizz heard our pleas...no snapshotting for Rogues =)

[Ninepenny]

Funny thing I just noticed: The whole multistrike mechanic is useless in solo play because Hemo doesn't trigger it. Good job.

Lol, it actually reveals quite an insight on how little thought was put into the subtlety's design.

I mean, just listen to this https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...56189708595200


Is this guy serious? What do rogue players get from the fact that they have to be behind the target to do their intended rotation?

Hmm, BS is iconic for subtlety? This is news to me, cause I distinctly remember 2.80 hemo dominating vanilla and TBC. Still trying (very hard) to understand how BS supposedly fits subtlety gameplay (wut? if anything, it actually harms it) and subtlety kit "so well".

[Feali]

Lol, it actually reveals quite an insight on how little thought was put into the subtlety's design.

I mean, just listen to this https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...56189708595200


Is this guy serious? What do rogue players get from the fact that they have to be behind the target to do their intended rotation?

Hmm, BS is iconic for subtlety? This is news to me, cause I distinctly remember 2.80 hemo dominating vanilla and TBC. Still trying (very hard) to understand how BS supposedly fits subtlety gameplay (wut? if anything, it actually harms it) and subtlety kit "so well".

I'm gonna make it my life goal to make his life miserable just as much as he is making mine.

[shadowboy]

Additionally because Blizzard shifted more of the total damage of hemo into the dot sub is going to end up even weaker when you can't backstab.

Also MS having zero AoE interaction is really frustrating if MS ends up as sub's best stat especially given's sub's already anemic AoE damage.

yeah, the whole "1 stat does nothing for aoe" is the problem combat faces in MoP. But to be fair, aoe attacks can multistrike, still--they just don't interact with the spec.

In fact, one of the problems with subtlety is that the core mechanics of the spec (sinister calling MS effect and FW) don't interact with an aoe rotation. this is true for both sub and combat on live (no BG progression for combat on live with a FoK rotation, and no true aoe from mastery). Making BF true aoe fixes both mechanics for combat, but sub still has problems with aoe.

[shalnath]

For those of you complaining about the Backstab positional requirement, please remember the advantage that comes with only being able to attack someone from behind: You cannot be dodged or parried by players, which allows you to continue building combo points while facing defensive cooldowns such as Evasion or Die by the Sword. This also means you do not waste energy while backstabbing because you won't miss when you think you're behind a target but you're really not because they're turning with a mouse.

Positional requirements are not just handicaps, they can also be advantageous and have the potential to counter specific defensive cooldowns.

[ymirsson]

For those of you complaining about the Backstab positional requirement, please remember the advantage that comes with only being able to attack someone from behind: You cannot be dodged or parried by players, which allows you to continue building combo points while facing defensive cooldowns such as Evasion or Die by the Sword. This also means you do not waste energy while backstabbing because you won't miss when you think you're behind a target but you're really not because they're turning with a mouse.

Positional requirements are not just handicaps, they can also be advantageous and have the potential to counter specific defensive cooldowns.

Hey, Mastermind, anyone attacking from behind can't be dodged or parried. But in the very special and rare case that the target doesn't turn with his tongue on his arrow keys, you won't be able to Backstab as often as you like.

[shalnath]

Hey, Mastermind, anyone attacking from behind can't be dodged or parried. But in the very special and rare case that the target doesn't turn with his tongue on his arrow keys, you won't be able to Backstab as often as you like.

Yes, but the positional requirement guarantees that you won't attack from anywhere but behind. So when players are turning very quickly with a mouse you don't even have to worry about which way they're facing, or client to server lag, as it will always hit their back.

As for your second statement: that's what Hemorrhage is for. Chances are if your target is kiting you in melee range to keep you from getting behind them, then you aren't doing damage anyway. Hemorrhage is the better choice here for the very reason that it generates combo points quicker than Backstab and allows you to get into a position faster where you can do damage. Honestly I can't even remember the last time I had to do this though since our toolkit gives us so many ways to prevent this from even happening in the first place.

I really don't understand why everyone hates Backstab so much. I don't even notice the positional requirement in PvP.

[Deleted]

I really don't understand why everyone hates Backstab so much. I don't even notice the positional requirement in PvP.

Because it is a bad design. And not everyone cares about pvp.
The core melee mechanics already punish you for attacking from the front, and all melee specs are presumably tuned with the assumption they are attacking from behind, so you can't reasonably reward Sub for just doing what everyone else is doing.
The only thing Sub get out of the positional requirement on Backstab is a double kick in the nuts when they can't get behind their target.

[ymirsson]

Yes, but the positional requirement guarantees that you won't attack from anywhere but behind. So when players are turning very quickly with a mouse you don't even have to worry about which way they're facing, or client to server lag, as it will always hit their back.

Unless you intend to do damage, in which case backstab won't even fire unless you're at their (extended) backside. I fail to see the advantage over a e.g. Warrior using MS. A rogue does not magically produce more DPS, because the damage lost by avoidance is surely less or equal to damage lost to positional requirements. And if you argument that CC keeps your target turned the way you want: they won't be able to avoid anything if turned. Not even non-rogue attacks.

[shalnath]

Because it is a bad design. And not everyone cares about pvp.
The core melee mechanics already punish you for attacking from the front, and all melee specs are presumably tuned with the assumption they are attacking from behind, so you can't reasonably reward Sub for just doing what everyone else is doing.
The only thing Sub get out of the positional requirement on Backstab is a double kick in the nuts when they can't get behind their target.

It's not bad design, it's a trade-off. Warriors, for example, don't have to worry about being behind a target to use Mortal Strike but they do have to worry about Mortal Strike missing and losing the rage generated from it. Rogues don't when they use Backstab, they are guaranteed combo points. Now it's up to you to decide whether or not you think it's worth it, and obviously many players here don't, but I think it is. Especially combined with the other tools available that allow us to get behind a target. And even if you can't get behind your target for whatever reason, you still have Hemorrhage.

Yes, PvE is a different story, but even if you don't PvP it's still part of the game. Not everyone cares about PvE either.

Unless you intend to do damage, in which case backstab won't even fire unless you're at their (extended) backside. I fail to see the advantage over a e.g. Warrior using MS. A rogue does not magically produce more DPS, because the damage lost by avoidance is surely less or equal to damage lost to positional requirements. And if you argument that CC keeps your target turned the way you want: they won't be able to avoid anything if turned. Not even non-rogue attacks.

Subtlety rogues absolutely do more damage than warriors when the target is using Evasion or Die by the Sword. A warrior can't build resources during these defensive cooldowns or do damage by attacking, but a rogue can still do both. Obviously stuns negate all forms of avoidance and any positional requirements, but since every class has access to those it's pointless to include them.

The bottom line is that yes, the handicap sucks in certain circumstances (especially PvE), but it can also be advantageous as I've described above. Combining that with the rest of the rogue toolkit really makes backstabbing a complete non-issue.

[Ninepenny]

I really don't understand why everyone hates Backstab so much. I don't even notice the positional requirement in PvP.

Because this is not only about pvp. And I'd rather use my melee abilities whenever I want and risk losing 6/7 engery (hemo/BS) instead of wasting time to try to get behind the target. With mobs in solo gamepaly this is not even possible without an opportunity cost - an opportunity cost to do damage everyone is doing in the first place. Ridiculous. Not even mentioning that some mobs are simply immune to cc.
They should just make hemo do equal damage to BS. Case closed, everyone's happy (people who want to move on and not being stuck in 2004, and people who enjoy the purple glow on their attack and a guaranteed landing).

Which brings us to a question - is there a reason subtlety rogues should do less damage than everyone else in solo gameplay?

The bottom line is that yes, the handicap sucks in certain circumstances (especially PvE), but it can also be advantageous as I've described above. Combining that with the rest of the rogue toolkit really makes backstabbing a complete non-issue.

Opportunity cost to be able to do damage everyone else is doing in the first place.

[shalnath]

Because this is not only about pvp. And I'd rather use my melee abilities whenever I want and risk losing 6/7 engery (hemo/BS) instead of wasting time to try to get behind the target. With mobs in solo gamepaly this is not even possible without an opportunity cost - an opportunity cost to do damage everyone is doing in the first place. Ridiculous. Not even mentioning that some mobs are simply immune to cc.
They should just make hemo do equal damage to BS. Case closed, everyone's happy (people who want to move on and not being stuck in 2004, and people who enjoy the purple glow on their attack and a guaranteed landing).

Which brings us to a question - is there a reason subtlety rogues should do less damage than everyone else in solo gameplay?



Opportunity cost to be able to do damage everyone else is doing in the first place.

I know how much PvE sucks as Subtlety, I'm not trying to argue against that. I play all aspects of the game and I've been Subtlety/Subtlety since before Cataclysm launched, only switching to a different spec for a few hours at a time. I feel your pain. Especially with solo content becoming a much larger part of the game, and now the introduction of the new Sinister Calling mechanic for the expansion. I only wish to show the merits of Backstab in PvP, which everyone seems to forget about.

[Deleted]

I am saying the loss of snapshotting is not something good. Including rogues was a typo, I didn't even realise I had put it in, seems like an obvious mistake to me.

That comment about aff locks is pretty hilarious, any idiot can install affdots, true, but keeping your big dots rolling for the max time available using multiple targets is a high skill cap. Which is going away, the same applies to ferals, except for the swapping dots to keep the big ones. Removing snapshots lowers the skill cap and narrows the gap between good and great.

But this is a discussion about rogues and I derailed in to snapshotting in general, the dot advancing passive if it stays like it is scaling with MS will make sub solely a bleed spec because I imagine it would be hard to find time to evis, with attack speed and crit scaling. I would still avoid playing sub myself, the 270 degree backstab helps but just make it 360 and be done with it, chasing the bosses back and side is artificial challenge.

What you're saying is 100% correct, and it's a theme that largely gets ignored at all WoW forums. The skillcap in WoW isn't particularly high, atleast compared to competitive online games where progaming exists, but it was still moderately high enough to be interesting. WoD is lowering it as close to the floor as possible. I suppose it's to keep the game alive, but I'm uncertain if it will be succesful.

[Deleted]

I only wish to show the merits of Backstab in PvP, which everyone seems to forget about.

We remember, we just don't care about PvP.
You asked why some us hate Backstab, and the answer is that it is a bad design in PvE(for reasons already explained) and we don't give one rotten copper about PvP.

[Feali]

Subtlety rogues absolutely do more damage than warriors when the target is using Evasion or Die by the Sword. A warrior can't build resources during these defensive cooldowns or do damage by attacking, but a rogue can still do both.

The Warrior could also just go behind the target just as we have to.

[Artorius]

We remember, we just don't care about PvP.
You asked why some us hate Backstab, and the answer is that it is a bad design in PvE(for reasons already explained) and we don't give one rotten copper about PvP.

You don't give. No need to stereotype.

[Deleted]

Lol, it actually reveals quite an insight on how little thought was put into the subtlety's design.

I mean, just listen to this https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...56189708595200


Is this guy serious? What do rogue players get from the fact that they have to be behind the target to do their intended rotation?

Hmm, BS is iconic for subtlety? This is news to me, cause I distinctly remember 2.80 hemo dominating vanilla and TBC. Still trying (very hard) to understand how BS supposedly fits subtlety gameplay (wut? if anything, it actually harms it) and subtlety kit "so well".

Actually, Backstab was the *iconic* ability of the dead Combat Dagger spec in Vanilla and TBC... At that time, BS was the main yellow damage source of the combat dagger spec because the CP generation was so slow that only SnD and a few Rupture could be maintained, but the spec was very fun, with big numbers and big crits !

Vanilla : http://nostalgeek-serveur.com/templa...0055010022105p
TBC : http://www.wowprovider.com/?talent=2...1001232105105u

As you can see the evolution of the talent tree, BS has never ever been a Sub ability... Sub was all about very slow weapons in main hand with the denormalized Hemo, and a mass spec to produce a lot of stuns... So Celestalon is just saying shit to cover their lazyness and lack of knowlegde of the rogue identity and history.

[Deleted]

Yes...so what? I am talking in the context of beta and before this change hemo spam granted more damage = nerf.

And I pointed out the futility of comparing values while a beta is still ongoing. So your point being, other than trying to make a (very weak) case for why your comment supposedly makes sense?

Since only you know what you're talking about, I'll leave you to it.

Again, cute. As soon as you find yourself on losing grounds, you start to pull back.

More ruptures, more CTs, less eviscerates? Yes. Eviscerate is even more down at priority list? Yes.

So your point is...?

What's yours? You say "Evi is now our FB"...I pointed out that this has been the case since the rework of sub in WotLK. So, this is suddenly becoming a bad thing...because? Btw. how can something be "more down" the list if it already is the last item, please enlighten me.

[Oggiva]

I think this new change pushes CT out of the single target rotation, save for situations when you have a lot of big buffs ending at the same time. You need ~11 ticks to make CT beat evis point for point, under the old SC mechanic that was possible since it added ticks, with the new mechanic since you make things tick faster but doesn't add ticks I don't think CT will be better than evis. The one caveat is since CT still snapshots you can use it to lock in buffs and debuffs for a longer duration however since you need ~2x damage worth of buffs this seems like a rare case.

I don't see a common case where CT is better than Eviscerate for singe target even with big buffs. Eviscerate doesn't care if buffs are running out either, as all the damage is up front. The only case I can see is where a mob is going to get some massive damage taken buff where you need to burst him down fast, (Shredder on Siegecrafter) but I don't even know if it updates with those kinds of debuffs. I've been meaning to check if hemo drops in damage after the belt fails on Siegecrafter, but I always forget to do it.

[Kael]

What's yours? You say "Evi is now our FB"...I pointed out that this has been the case since the rework of sub in WotLK. So, this is suddenly becoming a bad thing...because? Btw. how can something be "more down" the list if it already is the last item, please enlighten me.

See my last post. In the first, on live, CT is not a single target spell (which it was on beta, until recent changes), which WOULD push its priority down - since that wasn't direct enough in my original post.

Again, cute. As soon as you find yourself on losing grounds, you start to pull back.

Stop trying to pick fights. No one cares about your ego or anyone else's.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't see a common case where CT is better than Eviscerate for singe target even with big buffs. Eviscerate doesn't care if buffs are running out either, as all the damage is up front.

Yeah, logically snapshotting has no effect when comparing a snapshot dot to an instant attack now that base values appear to be gone entirely.

[Ninepenny]

And I pointed out the futility of comparing values while a beta is still ongoing. So your point being, other than trying to make a (very weak) case for why your comment supposedly makes sense?

No, you just tried to fit what I said in an idiotic frame "that's not how it works on live". Bottom line: hemo on beta after this change grants less damage.

What's yours? You say "Evi is now our FB"...I pointed out that this has been the case since the rework of sub in WotLK. So, this is suddenly becoming a bad thing...because? Btw. how can something be "more down" the list if it already is the last item, please enlighten me.

So you're arguing whether it's a good/bad thing or whether it happened or not? I don't care about your dislike of eviscerate. If it's the latter, then it happened. On beta right now if these changes stick, I'd actually consider reapplying rupture with 7 seconds left considering its unpredictable behavior with this new MS, instead of using eviscerate. My point still stands.

Seems like you're trying to pick up a fight just for the sake of it. Stop - you don't need to publicly poop yourself...again.