Rogue viability in mythics?

[Debased]

While admittedly my first real experience with rogues are thanks to my free boost I have to say I'm really enjoying the class. I boosted her for PvP but as it turns out raiding as a rogue is kind of fun! I'm still absolutely completely unsure of who I want to main for attempting to get back into semi-competitive raiding. I'm not quite familiar enough with the class to make sense of all of the changes but I'm wondering how are the numbers looking? How is utility? I don't have a mythic guild so breaking into a good one is important so the viability of the class matters to me more than usual. It's odd because I've only been looking into my mage and warlock but I actually really enjoy melee dps.

[Deleted]

While admittedly my first real experience with rogues are thanks to my free boost I have to say I'm really enjoying the class. I boosted her for PvP but as it turns out raiding as a rogue is kind of fun! I'm still absolutely completely unsure of who I want to main for attempting to get back into semi-competitive raiding. I'm not quite familiar enough with the class to make sense of all of the changes but I'm wondering how are the numbers looking? How is utility? I don't have a mythic guild so breaking into a good one is important so the viability of the class matters to me more than usual. It's odd because I've only been looking into my mage and warlock but I actually really enjoy melee dps.

Every DPS spec is viable in mythics. Mythic is just a new name for heroic mode. The only special nature of it is that it's the only non-flex raid mode.

All DPS specs have very little raid utility as most of it has been removed in WoD. Numbers will change atleast a dozen more times before the game is live. Ranged traditionally has an easier time on encounters than melee.

There you go.

[Debased]

Yes I know about the name change... No every DPS spec is not viable, at least not for a serious progression team.

[Deleted]

I play for a very serious progression team, and every class is viable. Clearly you disagree, but considering you're not on beta and just said you're only coming back to raiding, and only semi-competitive raiding at that, I can't see what experience you're speaking from.

Feel free to let us know which classes are not viable, but I think the main forum is the better avenue for that.

Word of warning though. Usually "Please tell me which class is FOTM so I can roll it" threads are frowned upon:

Your question about Rogues specifically can only be answered by 1) They're top DPS so they're the best choice. That's bad advice because DPS isn't final and will change multiple times. 2) They're mediocre DPS so you may or may not want to play them. That's bad advice because DPS isn't final and will change multiple times. 3) They're bad DPS so you don't want to play them. That's bad advice because DPS isn't final and will change multiple times. 4) Their Smoke Bomb raid utility isn't as strong as the utility of other classes. That's bad advice because Blizzard disagrees and objectively all of the raid utility spells are very minor and each class has give or take the same amount of them in WoD after the pruning. 5) Their Smoke Bomb raid utility is stronger than the utility of other classes. That's bad advice because Blizzard disagrees and objectively all of the raid utility spells are very minor and each class has give or take the same amount of them in WoD after the pruning.

So how would you specifically want your question to be answered? Are you expecting yes or no answers to Rogue viability in mythics? Both answers would be very bad advice. Hence I told you the truth. Every DPS class at this moment is very viable for mythic raiding, and if you can't get a guild or a raid spot it's not the class that you should blame.

[Deleted]

Rogues usually do well.

[Ryme]

As long as you have access to both cloak, feint and elusiveness - rogues in one spec or another will be more than viable.

[Sturmgewehr86]

As long as you have access to both cloak, feint and elusiveness - rogues in one spec or another will be more than viable.

I don't get why people are having such a boner for elusiveness, I believe Cheath death is vastly superior than elusiveness.I can't think of a single fight besides thok (even there now i use cheath death because 50% from normal feint is more than enough to keep you alive since the healers are aoe healing it anyway)where you want to spend energy to reduce damage , generally maybe only during Desperate measures of the female panda on the second boss where you are outside of the buble and maybe Iron Juggernaut.

[Geckoo]

I don't get why people are having such a boner for elusiveness, I believe Cheath death is vastly superior than elusiveness.I can't think of a single fight besides thok (even there now i use cheath death because 50% from normal feint is more than enough to keep you alive since the healers are aoe healing it anyway)where you want to spend energy to reduce damage , generally maybe only during Desperate measures of the female panda on the second boss where you are outside of the buble and maybe Iron Juggernaut.

To me? it's about honor. Cheat death means that i failed, elusiveness means that i actively work to survive. Now, consider that sentence also with numbers, uptimes, possibilities and all that stuff and elusiveness it's actually superior unless you are in fact avoiding death on purpose as a way to avoid a mechanic because of reasons.

[Ryme]

I don't get why people are having such a boner for elusiveness, I believe Cheath death is vastly superior than elusiveness.I can't think of a single fight besides thok (even there now i use cheath death because 50% from normal feint is more than enough to keep you alive since the healers are aoe healing it anyway)where you want to spend energy to reduce damage , generally maybe only during Desperate measures of the female panda on the second boss where you are outside of the buble and maybe Iron Juggernaut.

I use Cheat Death, mostly because I'm lazy. But it's worth remembering that Elusiveness will work on anything, not just AoE - it's not often this tier that's important, but it can easily be important in other tiers.

[Linneth]

I use Cheat Death, mostly because I'm lazy. But it's worth remembering that Elusiveness will work on anything, not just AoE - it's not often this tier that's important, but it can easily be important in other tiers.

I can tell you that more than half the people that claim the absolute superiority of Elusiveness doesn't know or realize that Elusiveness AoE reduction is multiplicative instead of additive and that it allows Feint to reduce ST damage.

[Sturmgewehr86]

I can tell you that more than half the people that claim the absolute superiority of Elusiveness doesn't know or realize that Elusiveness AoE reduction is multiplicative instead of additive and that it allows Feint to reduce ST damage.

There is not a single mechanic that requires single target reduce damage besides maybe Mark on second boss and maybe general nazgrim's dot and that is it.

[Sesshou]

To me? it's about honor. Cheat death means that i failed, elusiveness means that i actively work to survive. Now, consider that sentence also with numbers, uptimes, possibilities and all that stuff and elusiveness it's actually superior unless you are in fact avoiding death on purpose as a way to avoid a mechanic because of reasons.

To me its about cheating. Like shadowstepping jikun after the push back not giving a shit the tank wasn't there. Or just any other mechanic I can just stand in and do my job (dps). Now ok I wouldn't do that on progression, and elusiveness certainly works great on a lot of stuff, but usually if we wipe on progression, it isn't from ticking down from constant damage. Most people in my raid at least tend to die to giant damage spikes on progression where cheat death is actually really strong, and most of those aren't due to errors on my part. Now I certainly get why rogues in bleeding edge guilds take elusiveness, but for my semi serious 'we will full clear heroic before next tier' guild I find it doesn't work as well. Ymmv.

@op
Post #4. What do you want to hear exactly? if you're talking bleeding edge 100% min max raid comp, no one knows yet because they are still adjusting. For most full clearing heroic guilds, even if you stack certain classes, every class is viable and you won't sit your best players regardless. Seeing as how you said semi serious raiding, every dps class will be viable.

[Skulldouggery]

Some people in this thread are talking about viable classes, some people are talking about viable specs. It's probably unlikely that every DPS spec will be realistically viable for Mythics, but no doubt every DPS class will have at least one viable spec. At least that'll be true in the first tier - for example in both Cata and MoP all three rogue specs were viable during the final raid of the xpac (usually takes sub a little while to catch up with scaling and/or buffs). From what I've read at the moment it seems like the start of WoD'll be sort of like the start of MoP, and we'll want Assassination for single target and Combat for cleave/AOE. Is that anyone else's impression? And of course as several people have said they'll continue to tweak the numbers so who knows what it'll look like in November.

[Taeyon]

To me? it's about honor. Cheat death means that i failed, elusiveness means that i actively work to survive. Now, consider that sentence also with numbers, uptimes, possibilities and all that stuff and elusiveness it's actually superior unless you are in fact avoiding death on purpose as a way to avoid a mechanic because of reasons.

Elusiveness isn't needed, feint already more than enough covers you for massive aoe damage which most bosses do instead of individual damage mechanics. Cheat Death allows you to recover from mistakes, unavoidable or not, and allows you to cheese mechanics as well.

[invaluable-busines-advice]

reply to original poster.

ignore all these really crafty replies it boils down to this: Do you enjoy the pain that you have to go through for playing a rogue? this is a play style and it is tuned so that it tortures you. yes or no very simple. blizzard decided a long time ago to shit on people that prefer this class.

[Volitar]

Rogues are always good in PVE.

[Grayjoy]

reply to original poster.

ignore all these really crafty replies it boils down to this: Do you enjoy the pain that you have to go through for playing a rogue? this is a play style and it is tuned so that it tortures you. yes or no very simple. blizzard decided a long time ago to shit on people that prefer this class.

I swear, reading this board is like taking 2 Xanax, putting on that song from the ASPCA ad, reading "The Unbearable Lightness of Being," cutting myself, reading old breakup texts from an ex girlfriend, painting my room black, and thinking about all the hopes and dreams I had as a child that I've since abandoned.

Come on, people. At least we aren't disc priests.

[ssambakd]

I play for a very serious progression team, and every class is viable. Clearly you disagree, but considering you're not on beta and just said you're only coming back to raiding, and only semi-competitive raiding at that, I can't see what experience you're speaking from.

Feel free to let us know which classes are not viable, but I think the main forum is the better avenue for that.

Word of warning though. Usually "Please tell me which class is FOTM so I can roll it" threads are frowned upon:

Your question about Rogues specifically can only be answered by 1) They're top DPS so they're the best choice. That's bad advice because DPS isn't final and will change multiple times. 2) They're mediocre DPS so you may or may not want to play them. That's bad advice because DPS isn't final and will change multiple times. 3) They're bad DPS so you don't want to play them. That's bad advice because DPS isn't final and will change multiple times. 4) Their Smoke Bomb raid utility isn't as strong as the utility of other classes. That's bad advice because Blizzard disagrees and objectively all of the raid utility spells are very minor and each class has give or take the same amount of them in WoD after the pruning. 5) Their Smoke Bomb raid utility is stronger than the utility of other classes. That's bad advice because Blizzard disagrees and objectively all of the raid utility spells are very minor and each class has give or take the same amount of them in WoD after the pruning.

So how would you specifically want your question to be answered? Are you expecting yes or no answers to Rogue viability in mythics? Both answers would be very bad advice. Hence I told you the truth. Every DPS class at this moment is very viable for mythic raiding, and if you can't get a guild or a raid spot it's not the class that you should blame.

He said not every SPEC is viable, not every class, like your strawman argument. Obviously, every class can be viable even if two other specs for the class (aside from druids) aren't viable. So, what are you talking about?

[Deleted]

To me? it's about honor. Cheat death means that i failed, elusiveness means that i actively work to survive. Now, consider that sentence also with numbers, uptimes, possibilities and all that stuff and elusiveness it's actually superior unless you are in fact avoiding death on purpose as a way to avoid a mechanic because of reasons.

Honor? Lol this is why handsdown I beat the shit out of any other rogues dps wise. Elusiveness encourages spam of a costly and global cd bound skill wich contradicts the way rogues should be played. Both cheat death and yes even leeching are better in my personal view. And my results have proven it constantly. Surviviablity wise, elusiveness is only better theoretically, but in actual practise I find the other 2 talents more fitting for the rogue class. Then again, thats why we have choises.

[jtstormrage]

What a lot of speculation.

"Viable" means (1) do you do high dps (2) can you surivive (3) do you have raid utility.

Rogues always have (2) and (3). (1) depends on tuning which is still happening.

We will be fine. We always are. More so at the end of the xpac, but we will be fine.