Overspecialised specs, lack of utility and bad talent design are hurting Warlocks

[Jessicka]

This thread is not about numbers, it's about mechanical and playstyle issues with the class that make it less enjoyable, less engaging and less desirable to have around. There are in my view 6 key points.

Specs over-specialised

Talents exacerbate this

Trap talents/glyph combinations

Bad talents and incoherent comparability along the row

Lack of utility

Lack of encounter engagement

Firstly, being overspecialised to the point of forsaking the capacity to fulfil other tasks forces a lot of spec changing that other classes need not deal with. Affliction, notably is unable to deal direct damage or AoE effectively, while Destruction is unable to function where high mobility is required.

The idea of some of the talents seems to be that they can perhaps compensate for these shortcomings - KJC for mobility, MF/Cataclysm/CR for AoE for example - but instead the obvious choice is to pick the spec that covers the shortcoming, and the talent that compliments the spec's main strength necessary for the encounter. That of course amplifies and widens the gap between 'right and wrong' talent/spec choices per encounter, and as balance occurs towards the 'right' end, and means the 'wrong' end is pushed that much further behind. In turn, that 'forces' respeccing into specialisation and talent combinations a player simply might not find enjoyable. Further to that, as new content opens, stats inflate and more gear choices become available, the need for off-spec items increases but are unlikely to be readily available when it matters during progress.

Then there are trap talent/glyph combinations - Sacrifice doesn't work with Servitude, Glyph of Demon Training works with neither.

There are bad talents. With the introduction of Cataclysm, Mannoroth's Fury is now redundant, especially after the Rain of Fire nerf. KJC lacks the flexibility of comparable talents like Ice Flows, or the multi-glyphable Spirit Walkers Grace, making it incredibly niche. That it sits alongside AoE and raw DPS increasing talents make it even less desirable. Charred Remains, as a DPS loss on going untalented against Single Target would be very difficult to gauge as persistent sustained AoE simply doesn't happen, and AoE phases get progressively less significant as gear improves. Demonbolt on the other hand is simply not in any way intuitive.

Lack of utility since Healthstones are now superceded by the more potent Health Tonics and Shieldtronic Shields, we're left with Gateway which is incredibly niched to 1, maybe 2 encounters a tier. Even there, it's unpopular with a lot of raid leaders due to its obstructive size and players 'misclicking' it.

Tying in to the lack of utility, it's too easy for Warlocks to pass on engaging with encounter mechanics with 'I'd need to respec', or 'I'd lose DPS by switching pets/talents' or simply 'I can't, I don't have the tools to'. I honestly think that not just makes the class less useful to have around, since you can't rely on them to fulfil basic obligations like interupts or purges, but also less fun to play because you're losing out or missing out if you actually want to.

Those for me are the objective issues that are hurting the class.

[Mcbenchpress]

Mage is kind of in the same boat, except two out of our three specs can run around and Goldeneye circle-strafe the boss while doing 99% of maximum dps. Mobility is key this tier, and Warlocks are definitely lacking.

Also, do you really have three female human Warlocks all seemingly set-up to play a different spec? That seems.....exhausting.

[Deleted]

This.

Thousand time this.

That should be printed and taped on the bathroom door where System Designers go to do their number two.

Btw... is any of you guys actually tweeting some of this to Designers? Or are you setting up threads on US sites? I know they mentioned they were reading these sites as well, but somehow I feel that this acutally needs to get through to them. I think they take these "I don't have fun playing my class" complains much more seriously than "I don't do bazilion DPS anymore".

[Styxz]

Agreed. Now, did you post this on the official forums as well?

I'd post it in the lock forum, the general forum (I've seen class discussion in there recently, and the threads aren't moved), and maybe even the dps forum. Also tweet this to the devs.

Our fellow locks are so focused on buffing our damage that we're going to miss our opportunity to fix them gameplay issues that WoD uncovered and/or introduced.

[The-loon]

Great post! I am really hoping many of your concerns (and concerns of the warlock community) are address in 6.1. I am optimistic that we only have a few more weeks of the current state to endure, before some much needed changes are implemented.

[iriecolorado]

That should be printed and taped on the bathroom door where System Designers go to do their number two.

Nah, I don't know any Warlocks that want a sign taped on their mouth.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a fine post, but we're not going to see anything fixed until May/June when 6.1 lands.

[Ghiroza]

Will 6.1 not come in February with blackrock?

[Grizelda]

Another problem I'd like to point out would be some abilities being extremely weak without a talent and glyph to buff them.

Drain Life and Ember Tap are horrible without the talent AND glyph. I understand Ember Tap was nerfed because it was too powerful with CR but surely there is another way to balance that.

Glyph of Havoc is another trap glyph

The changes needed to polish Destro are so simple and obvious, it irks me that they can't be implemented right away. Also irritating is the Devs inability to back the fuck up and return to what worked in the past. Just admit you made a mistake and in a few blockheaded moves ruined something that had a whole expansion of polish.

Affliction seems a bit harder to fix but at least help shard generation. The RNG is horrible.

I don't think that we will see any changes. This is what we have. Devs are just amazed that we have complaints when we should be thanking them for the amazing garrisons.

Also irritating is the inconsistency in their message:

Is Hybrid tax a thing?
Should I expect to respec/reglyph/retalent/regear 4 times a night? Or is a Destro lock a Destro lock? (Barring min/maxing at elite levels of play)
In your efforts at balance, are you trying to build specs/classes that have interesting/different tools to do the jobs an encounter asks or are you trying to build in weakness?
If so what are my weaknesses supposed to be in comparison to other pure DPS weakness? Do you feel that you have balanced weakness as well as strengths?

I'd rather be coaxed to try a different set up because it looks fun to do it that way. Not because I'm fuck all useless otherwise.

[Deleted]

Another problem I'd like to point out would be some abilities being extremely weak without a talent and glyph to buff them.

Drain Life and Ember Tap are horrible without the talent AND glyph. I understand Ember Tap was nerfed because it was too powerful with CR but surely there is another way to balance that.

Glyph of Havoc is another trap glyph

The changes needed to polish Destro are so simple and obvious, it irks me that they can't be implemented right away. Also irritating is the Devs inability to back the fuck up and return to what worked in the past. Just admit you made a mistake and in a few blockheaded moves ruined something that had a whole expansion of polish.

Affliction seems a bit harder to fix but at least help shard generation. The RNG is horrible.

I don't think that we will see any changes. This is what we have. Devs are just amazed that we have complaints when we should be thanking them for the amazing garrisons.

You are middle of the pack DPS with the chance for a top 5 spot if played exceptionally.
Your utility is just as fine as other classes.
You seriously complain that you have the possibility to adapt to every fight just by switching speccs ? Thats a god given gift ffs. I am playing a shadow priest and i'd love to have some room for choice except for switching betweed SoD and Insanity.

Imo, you guys are just crying because you are not apeshit crazy op anymore as you were for a whole damned YEAR in SoO.
Step up your game and stop complaining for once.

Infracted.

[Leyl]

Nah, I don't know any Warlocks that want a sign taped on their mouth.

I lol'd so hard I spit my coffee.

[demiak]

You are middle of the pack DPS with the chance for a top 5 spot if played exceptionally.
Your utility is just as fine as other classes.
You seriously complain that you have the possibility to adapt to every fight just by switching speccs ? Thats a god given gift ffs. I am playing a shadow priest and i'd love to have some room for choice except for switching betweed SoD and Insanity.

Imo, you guys are just crying because you are not apeshit crazy op anymore as you were for a whole damned YEAR in SoO.
Step up your game and stop complaining for once.

Ya, step our game while pallys and monks faceroll on kb and do more dps.

[Leyl]

Will 6.1 not come in February with blackrock?

Yeah, the thought is early February for BRF. However, I don't think this is enough time to get warlocks changed up. I believe 6.2, or 6.3, or maybe even the next expansion set we'll have to be looked at. I don't like that, but yeah, it is what it is. Maybe some minor tweaks will happen, but I don't expect straight up talent replacements or ability reworks until then. Blizzard classically does this to avoid problems like we have today, but I don't know what happened this last time around from MOP to WOD for warlocks. It kind of feels like something got started, vetoed, restarted, then altogether halted.

[Grizelda]

@Lazu You feeling that Shadowpriests suck doesn't negate any of my points


And actually...

I don't mind switching specs if I get to be a chameleon like master of whatever you can throw at me. I'm cool with that.

I asked if that is intended, and if so, why is that strength/weakness paradigm not consistent.

[Jessicka]

Mage is kind of in the same boat, except two out of our three specs can run around and Goldeneye circle-strafe the boss while doing 99% of maximum dps. Mobility is key this tier, and Warlocks are definitely lacking.

I'm playing Mage now, re-garrisoning, re-gearing, etc. is definitely not trivial in terms of time and energy. While I agree Mage talents have issues - pick the 1 interesting option that adds to your rotation on a row, or be left with a 2 button rotation - I don't feel like the end result is quite as stark a disparity between being optimal and picking the ones you're comfortable with as it is with Warlocks. The main reason I think is that those choices are consistent in their approach as to what they provide, just in different ways.

Also, do you really have three female human Warlocks all seemingly set-up to play a different spec? That seems.....exhausting.

It wasn't, they actually came about for different reasons; one was Horde, the other's on a different realm, but the end result of being able to pick a spec and stick with it and learn it without hurting progress, messing with lockouts, regemming/enchanting is actually really convenient. Might just make a Frost Mage for the same reason. Called Elsa.

[Deleted]

@Lazu You feeling that Shadowpriests suck doesn't negate any of my points


And actually...

I don't mind switching specs if I get to be a chameleon like master of whatever you can throw at me. I'm cool with that.

I asked if that is intended, and if so, why is that strength/weakness paradigm not consistent.

I never said shadows suck. They're fine just like warlocks.

[Jessicka]

You are middle of the pack DPS with the chance for a top 5 spot if played exceptionally.
Your utility is just as fine as other classes.

It's not even close to SPriest with Leap of Faith, Mass Dispel and Vampiric Embrace.

You seriously complain that you have the possibility to adapt to every fight just by switching speccs ? Thats a god given gift ffs. I am playing a shadow priest and i'd love to have some room for choice except for switching betweed SoD and Insanity.

There's too much space in respect for Warlocks between 'wanting to' and 'having to'. Fair enough if folks want to squeeze out another couple of % to get top 1-5 on the meter, less so when not doing so means you're barely beating tanks. Right now, you can do it and still not be getting a chance at that #1 spot.

Imo, you guys are just crying because you are not apeshit crazy op anymore as you were for a whole damned YEAR in SoO.
Step up your game and stop complaining for once.

I played Demo all through that crazy period of SoO, and I was playing it through Cataclysm and Wrath before then. This has nothing to do with 'wanting to be OP again', since I only ever was on a couple of fights in ToT.

[iriecolorado]

Will 6.1 not come in February with blackrock?

Nope. Blackrock is 6.0 content. They'll put 6.1 up on the PTR sometime after Blackrock.

Proof: https://twitter.com/watcherdev/statu...08940529377280

Any major patch is going to require a minimum of 30 days on the PTR. If you're expecting 6.1 before mid-to-late Spring, prepare for extreme disappointment.

[Baconeggcheese]

Drain Life and Ember Tap are horrible without the talent AND glyph.

This is another problem I think jess has brought up a lot with the class design, they continue to nerf our baseline abilities to utter uselessness and compensate with talent / glyph choices to make them viable again.

MF was a great example of that, where the related spells that were useful got nerfed when it got turned into a CD because they became too strong... and the net result is that you need to take that talent to make those spells as potent as they were before the talent was changed.

The same goes for ember tap, where it was extremely potent before but then they created charred remains + searing flames which required them to nerf ember tap to utter uselessness without having those things.

[Leyl]

Nope. Blackrock is 6.0 content. They'll put 6.1 up on the PTR sometime after Blackrock.

Proof: https://twitter.com/watcherdev/statu...08940529377280

Any major patch is going to require a minimum of 30 days on the PTR. If you're expecting 6.1 before mid-to-late Spring, prepare for extreme disappointment.

WELL COLOR ME 50 SHADES OF SAD. Makes sense though. /wrists kek.

[iriecolorado]

Drain Life and Ember Tap are horrible without the talent AND glyph.

Ember Tap is still horrible, even with a glyph and talent.