the man who nerfed paladins before the game even came out

[Terridon]

Is this a joke? Paladins being one of the most played classes, and strong in every aspect of the game.
They work at 2700 rating as dps, they work really well in raids as healers, dps and tanks. What more do people want?
I guess op is just sad that you can't roll an undead paladin, which is understandable.

[Deleted]

Paladins sucks anyway, if u ask me.. and slafe healing in battlegounds are too OP. Too hard to kill salfe healing pladin...

[anaxie]

my main used to be ret pally, your dammed fucking right we were strong, and we bloody derserved it, ignoring it was a undead theme, did you ever play a ret pally in tbc, those were dark dark times, never get a group for anywhere

Ret was viable in TBC. This is a L2P issue.

[Celista]

Ret was viable in TBC. This is a L2P issue.

At the end of TBC? Sure.

[Shelly]

That may be so but it does put a lot of things into perspective. Definitely clears up why my paladin was a buff bot that hit like a wet noodle back in vanilla.

In Vanilla it was very clear that they had placed people into specific niche roles and had set the gearing for such as well.

If you were a warrior you tanked.

If you could heal, you were a healer. Sometimes you were a buffer (Hello rebuffing kings on every single person every 5 minutes!)

If you were a "hybrid" you were default set to heal with just about every set bonus working around giving you mana back or reducing spell costs.

Really one of the biggest reasons for PvP of that era to be considered so good - and world PvP specifically - is because it was the only real place where you could shine as an "off-spec." Your fury warrior could wreck face, your ret paladin could actually do more than pass out buffs, your enhance shaman dropping a windfury totem and a 2-H mace would utterly decimate foes. (Unstoppable force still in the game?)

In LK one of the reasons Ret - and all melee/physical dps really - scaled so well is because they made some changes to armor penetration and they didn't anticipate how quickly gear would overbudget once they introduced heroic mode raids. So by the final raid you had warrior that could exceed 100% armor penetration combined with too many abilities scaled from weapon damage.

Ret had a different problem, at the time agility also granted critical strike rating. Where it got interesting was that for say a warrior it took something like 30-agility per 1% crit, but for a Ret it was something like 22-agility for 1% crit. So the best in slot chest was actually a heroic mode rogue leather chest that had the most agility and 3 red gem slots you could load up strength gems into. This was combined with a crazy set bonus that pretty much turned you into a wild and shiny gold windmill of critical striking.

Anyway, the deal with vanilla probably had nothing to do with some crazy conspiracy involving two developers somehow pushing their agenda into everyone's kool-aid, and more that it was easier from a development standpoint as a whole for them to force people into specific roles. This made balancing a cinch compared to now when they have set bonuses depending on your spec and additional pvp set bonuses as well as trinkets that have a combination of stats and procs/on-use available.

Fact is WoW started out trying to be rather uncomplicated and sandboxy. It's evolved into something far less sandboxy, very targeted and with specific goals that really cement it as a game over a life simulator.

[Tucci]

Complaining about decade old shit. Now I've seen it all.

[OrcsRLame]

In Vanilla it was very clear that they had placed people into specific niche roles and had set the gearing for such as well.

If you were a warrior you tanked.

If you could heal, you were a healer. Sometimes you were a buffer (Hello rebuffing kings on every single person every 5 minutes!)

If you were a "hybrid" you were default set to heal with just about every set bonus working around giving you mana back or reducing spell costs.

Really one of the biggest reasons for PvP of that era to be considered so good - and world PvP specifically - is because it was the only real place where you could shine as an "off-spec." Your fury warrior could wreck face, your ret paladin could actually do more than pass out buffs, your enhance shaman dropping a windfury totem and a 2-H mace would utterly decimate foes. (Unstoppable force still in the game?)

In LK one of the reasons Ret - and all melee/physical dps really - scaled so well is because they made some changes to armor penetration and they didn't anticipate how quickly gear would overbudget once they introduced heroic mode raids. So by the final raid you had warrior that could exceed 100% armor penetration combined with too many abilities scaled from weapon damage.

Ret had a different problem, at the time agility also granted critical strike rating. Where it got interesting was that for say a warrior it took something like 30-agility per 1% crit, but for a Ret it was something like 22-agility for 1% crit. So the best in slot chest was actually a heroic mode rogue leather chest that had the most agility and 3 red gem slots you could load up strength gems into. This was combined with a crazy set bonus that pretty much turned you into a wild and shiny gold windmill of critical striking.

Anyway, the deal with vanilla probably had nothing to do with some crazy conspiracy involving two developers somehow pushing their agenda into everyone's kool-aid, and more that it was easier from a development standpoint as a whole for them to force people into specific roles. This made balancing a cinch compared to now when they have set bonuses depending on your spec and additional pvp set bonuses as well as trinkets that have a combination of stats and procs/on-use available.

Fact is WoW started out trying to be rather uncomplicated and sandboxy. It's evolved into something far less sandboxy, very targeted and with specific goals that really cement it as a game over a life simulator.

Not all of your information about LK is correct. Nobody ever got past 100% Arp in LK. In Ulduar, people were getting close, but then Blizzard nerfed Arp going into ToC. You went from needing like 1100 rating for 100% to 1400, and with the new 1400=100%, they also hard capped Arp at 100%, so no more negative armor values. I can't speak for other plate classes, but for warriors, the BiS list was almost entirely leather. It was like, 4 piece bonus, then leather in every other armor slot. It's not a problem that was exclusive to ret or exclusive to one slot. It's actually one of the main reasons why Blizzard made the whole armor specialization thing, to forever kill that off.

Also, ret didn't use armor pen if they could avoid it. Terrible but not completely dead stat for them. It was all about the haste and crit for rets. Some Arp gear was still BiS for them, the stat just wasn't ideal. Warriors and such would have been perfectly fine without the 3.1 changes to Arp though. Throughout Naxx, nobody used Arp, it was terrible, and warriors were still the highest dps. I remember getting Grim Toll on an "I might need this" roll, because no one else cared at the time. A week later it was the single most sought after item in the game.

[Deleted]

At the end of TBC? Sure.

Can't believe I'm being dragged back to TBC again but I'm suitably bored.

Rets were sort of ok throughout TBC (at least I was able to compete). The issue at the start was that they gutted crusader strike to having a 10 second cooldown which made its utility less potent. If you ever missed one, you were likely to have JoW/JoL removed and holy paladins were less inclined to keep judging stuff back then. In terms of damage, though, although it was frustrating that so many changes kept happening, you could adapt and do alright.

[Discard]

here is a quote and theres more info on this online

Furor and Tigole hated hybrid classes. Their anti-hybrid stance was notorious in Everquest. Furor was an obnoxious baby who organized server crash protests because Paladins out-tanked him in the EQ Planes of Power expansion. He was a loudmouthed brat who didn't care a lick about taking all the fun out of the game for other people.

Tigole was his best friend.


When Vivendi bought Blizzard, much of Blizzard's developing talent left. Some of these were Diablo and Starcraft developers. They went to various other projects, including Hellgate: London and Arenanet. It's unclear whether they were fired, or merely quit.

With several of the original WoW developers gone, these two geniuses were suddenly in positions of influence, in a game with three hybrid classes. Two guys who crashed servers because, for whatever petty and childish reason, they saw red whenever someone with a mana bar out-tanked Furor's pwecious warrior.

Talk about a perfect storm.

Then the class nerfs began.

Paladins suffered from nerf after nerf, beginning with a complete gutting of the class one week before the end of open beta. This culminated in a class review wherein the class was outright lied to by CMs, their forum trolls were praised, and almost none of their major concerns were addressed. They became a pure support class, almost identical to the Everquest Cleric. Big surprise, nobody wants to play them, either. Seen how many endgame WoW Ret Paladins there are? The latest Judgement of the Wise nerf only proves the point. Many will quit or reroll. Having your class being treated like a diseased dog for 3+ years with promises of "no nerfs, just tweaks" and then being lied to just doesn't sit well.


i wish there was some way we could email the developers who did this and confirm that they did this (they did but see if they admit to doing it) do you guys know a way? before moderators delete this because they think its made up you should do the research, this is old and true news. they had holy strike and crusader strike but he wanted them to be weak in revenge

furor is on twitter so i already asked him. hopefully if you guys ask too he will answer us

All of your data is secondhand and not very well researched. Tigole and Furor were in two different guilds on two different servers. Those guilds were competing for world firsts. They were friendly rivals until after Sony started the guild summits and they met and discussed guild related things in person. Tigole was never involved in any of Furor's temper tantrums and used to mock him for them on Legacy of Steel's guild forums.

Having played for years on Nameless and having been friends in game with Tigole, Parv and a slew of others in LoS, I can speak from a place of first hand knowledge and not anecdotal hyperbole.

Moreover... your timeline is completely skewed. You talk about the "gutting" of the class after open beta. You're totally right. I was there too. However, at that time Furor was just a quest designer and had nothing to do with class design. Tigole was responsible for world design. Again, not class design. He also left the WoW team in 2009 - 6 years ago.

You are literally posting out of impotent rage and looking to point fingers over your perceived slight. You really think the Creative Director of WoW has it out for a class in the game because it shares the same name as a class he didn't like from 12 years ago? Kid... he has much, much bigger fish to fry and he has class designers to worry about that.

[Affixiation]

Guys i just came from the past to tell you
warhammer will kill wow

[Sting]

Guys i just came from the past to tell you
warhammer will kill wow

Have you heard of this upcoming new game? It's called Age of Conan!

[ellieg]

Not all of your information about LK is correct. Nobody ever got past 100% Arp in LK. In Ulduar, people were getting close, but then Blizzard nerfed Arp going into ToC. You went from needing like 1100 rating for 100% to 1400, and with the new 1400=100%, they also hard capped Arp at 100%, so no more negative armor values. I can't speak for other plate classes, but for warriors, the BiS list was almost entirely leather. It was like, 4 piece bonus, then leather in every other armor slot. It's not a problem that was exclusive to ret or exclusive to one slot. It's actually one of the main reasons why Blizzard made the whole armor specialization thing, to forever kill that off.

Also, ret didn't use armor pen if they could avoid it. Terrible but not completely dead stat for them. It was all about the haste and crit for rets. Some Arp gear was still BiS for them, the stat just wasn't ideal. Warriors and such would have been perfectly fine without the 3.1 changes to Arp though. Throughout Naxx, nobody used Arp, it was terrible, and warriors were still the highest dps. I remember getting Grim Toll on an "I might need this" roll, because no one else cared at the time. A week later it was the single most sought after item in the game.

By the end of ICC you could be at 100% arp pretty easily. I was on my rogue.

[Hauntlander]

he wanted them to be weak in revenge

Good? Rets are fine at the moment, great actually, and I play one at level cap. If not for the over-dramatic nerf fest you're on about, they'd be gods and all the people like you would be like "R-rets are fine! Git gud!!"

[NeatForever]

holy fucking necro

[Super Kami Dende]

Good? Rets are fine at the moment, great actually, and I play one at level cap. If not for the over-dramatic nerf fest you're on about, they'd be gods and all the people like you would be like "R-rets are fine! Git gud!!"

Ret are currently one of the lowest DPS specs in game. Other Classes that have specs below Paladin also have other Specs that are above them so have the choice to change. WW monk is the only spec lower than it that does not have another spec they can change to for higher DPS, Priest is right next to both Ret and WW. All are Hybrids.

Makes this thread kind of make sense still.

[Tangra]

Here is the classic series of videos about this topic, it's actually really cool how much it teaches you about Paladin development over the last decade and spells most of us have never heard of, which disappeared over the years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwpy...B6EA7608057DF2

[Deng]

It all mattered.
In 2006.

[TheDeeGee]

Can't people just enjoy their Class and get over it?

I never ever got my panties in a twist about changes to my Class resulting in lower DPS.

[lolskillzz]

Can't people just enjoy their Class and get over it?

I never ever got my panties in a twist about changes to my Class resulting in lower DPS.

Becuz you cant enjoy the game when you cant find people to play with becuz your class/spec is only viable with one comp. once you reach a certain raiting. and what makes it even funnier is the one class u work with can play with another class and obtain better results with less effort. thats why people complain (at least from a pvp perspective.)

[anaxie]

At the end of TBC? Sure.

No 2.1 . Again skill issue

- - - Updated - - -

Ret are currently one of the lowest DPS specs in game. Other Classes that have specs below Paladin also have other Specs that are above them so have the choice to change. WW monk is the only spec lower than it that does not have another spec they can change to for higher DPS, Priest is right next to both Ret and WW. All are Hybrids.

Makes this thread kind of make sense still.

Lol do you even mythic?