Just watched Paragon Blackahnd Mythic kill..

[striderZA]

Mages were the top class in T14 and T15 and Warlocks didn't take over until T16. Mages are still at the top, your logic is flawed.

Yeah, I'm so sick of hearing people say that Warlocks should be bad because we were really good in 5.4, it's a ridiculous argument.

Another thing, could someone please explain to me why guilds are so intent on private logging?

[Octa]

Yeah, I'm so sick of hearing people say that Warlocks should be bad because we were really good in 5.4, it's a ridiculous argument.

Another thing, could someone please explain to me why guilds are so intent on private logging?

Most of the people I talk to that private log do it because "lol plebs public log". I wish I was joking. I understand why the absolute top guilds do it and I understand why people who have trouble with people whoring DPS on progression do it (kinda). Sadly, most people I've asked about it are just fucking tools doing it because it's cool to pretend you're a world first guild and people are going to steal your strats for US 120th.

[SpikeySquad]

In addition to the above I believe private logging is sometimes done to prevent poaching of the top players. Whether this really happens I have no idea but I have seen it been offered as a reason.

For most guilds the logs will eventually be made public more and more.

[Novx]

The only real (outside of top ranked guilds) reason to private log on progression is to stop people from padding for the sake of not having to deal with bullshit.

[Thirteen]

Meanwhile...

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/7#dataset=90

First world problems, I guess?

[Qck]

The only real (outside of top ranked guilds) reason to private log on progression is to stop people from padding for the sake of not having to deal with bullshit.

Yea, this is the reason I've always pushed for my guilds to private log progression if possible, the amount of dick-waving that goes on is pretty bad and seems to get a lot of people offside.

Also, slightly less real, but if you raid in a smaller community(like Oce, for example) it keeps the poachers away, too.

[striderZA]

Most of the people I talk to that private log do it because "lol plebs public log". I wish I was joking. I understand why the absolute top guilds do it and I understand why people who have trouble with people whoring DPS on progression do it (kinda). Sadly, most people I've asked about it are just fucking tools doing it because it's cool to pretend you're a world first guild and people are going to steal your strats for US 120th.

During the progression race I completely understand why, it's the same reason why streams are turned off and in that context it makes perfect sense.

- - - Updated - - -

the amount of dick-waving that goes on is pretty bad and seems to get a lot of people offside.

Sensible yeah, the problem with blindly looking at ranks is very real. Ranks are an auxiliary feature of combat logging (and for the most part irrelevant), with the important use being analyzing damage done on priority targets, cooldown usage and damage taken, to name a few.

[kouby]

I thought this post would be about Alzu's skill as disc.

[Tramzh]

Mages were the top class in T14 and T15 and Warlocks didn't take over until T16. Mages are still at the top, your logic is flawed.

I just don't get how you guys can keep saying this. Our overall utility combined with our damage made us way better than mages ever was during those tiers. After Critical Mass for fire mages was nerfed and KJC got changed affliction with GoSac was pretty much unbeatable by any other class on every single boss except for Garalon. Warlocks were god like damage wise in 5.1.

In ToT we didn't just have 1 spec that was strong, every single spec was more than viable. We had a spec to cover every single boss perfectly and a guild without a lock was at a major disadvantage especially for Lei Shen. Soul Leech was just completely retarded with destro as well, I could go through the entire Horridon fight taking no damage until the last phase. Not to mention what damage we were capable of doing with the Lei Shen trinket. Combined with our other ridiculous amount of survivability and strength of our level 90 talents before they got changed in 5.4 made us way superior to pretty much any other class.

That being said, "keeping us down on purpose" because of that makes no sense at all.

[Novx]

I just don't get how you guys can keep saying this. Our overall utility combined with our damage made us way better than mages ever was during those tiers.

Because the argument that is being brought up is that we are being punished for being so good in MoP. Mages are currently higher DPS and significantly better raid utility and therefore that argument is invalid. Not only that but unless you count healthstones as a raid utility, as Blizzard clearly does not, our only utility was the fact that we had pets for Animus and that we couldn't die. All encounters were 100% doable without a warlock it just involved people actually moving their feet for 4 seconds.

In ToT we didn't just have 1 spec that was strong, every single spec was more than viable. We had a spec to cover every single boss perfectly and a guild without a lock was at a major disadvantage especially for Lei Shen. Soul Leech was just completely retarded with destro as well, I could go through the entire Horridon fight taking no damage until the last phase. Not to mention what damage we were capable of doing with the Lei Shen trinket. Combined with our other ridiculous amount of survivability and strength of our level 90 talents before they got changed in 5.4 made us way superior to pretty much any other class.

I don't consider the Lei Shen trinket as "Warlocks were OP", no, a trinket was insanely OP. That trinket ruined an entire tier and it was an absolute joke to try and parse as Demo on fights because it basically came down to who got better procs and it also heavily taxed those who could not get it. Sure, every spec was strong but it still wasn't THE BEST as is being claimed by the person i initially quoted. I don't even think mages would argue that for the better part of ToT they were the best class in the game and lets not even talk about MSV/HoF/ToES.

I never said warlocks were bad but rather I stated mages were better, as they were, which therefore rules out the conspiracy that Blizzard is punishing us for being too good. Blizzard just doesn't understand how to balance a class and they have showed their incompetence numerous times in just this first tier and we're only a few months in.

TLDR: A class shouldn't be considered OP because Blizzard is too fucking lazy to nerf a trinket that was clearly OP from day 1 and that they even addressed early on as being overpowered yet they let it stay in the game.

[Tramzh]

Because the argument that is being brought up is that we are being punished for being so good in MoP. Mages are currently higher DPS and significantly better raid utility and therefore that argument is invalid. Not only that but unless you count healthstones as a raid utility, as Blizzard clearly does not, our only utility was the fact that we had pets for Animus and that we couldn't die. All encounters were 100% doable without a warlock it just involved people actually moving their feet for 4 seconds.



I don't consider the Lei Shen trinket as "Warlocks were OP", no, a trinket was insanely OP. That trinket ruined an entire tier and it was an absolute joke to try and parse as Demo on fights because it basically came down to who got better procs and it also heavily taxed those who could not get it. Sure, every spec was strong but it still wasn't THE BEST as is being claimed by the person i initially quoted. I don't even think mages would argue that for the better part of ToT they were the best class in the game and lets not even talk about MSV/HoF/ToES.

I never said warlocks were bad but rather I stated mages were better, as they were, which therefore rules out the conspiracy that Blizzard is punishing us for being too good. Blizzard just doesn't understand how to balance a class and they have showed their incompetence numerous times in just this first tier and we're only a few months in.

TLDR: A class shouldn't be considered OP because Blizzard is too fucking lazy to nerf a trinket that was clearly OP from day 1 and that they even addressed early on as being overpowered yet they let it stay in the game.

First of all, I'm not defending anyone who's saying stuff like "warlocks are getting punished for being good for too long" it's just stupid. Also, healthstones were a real raid utility back in that tier.

When you say "they were better", do you only look at boss damage or epeenbot (and I'm pretty sure locks were still topping there) when you make that statement or what do you actually mean by that?
Who brought the most useful damage for Horridon? warlocks
... most damage for Council? warlocks
... slows for Tortos? warlocks
... damage and utility for Megaera? warlocks
... damage for Durumu walls? warlocks (and shamans)
... insane add control and damage on Primordius? warlocks
... dmg reduction capable of soaking the swaps with ease combined with a pet and high damage? warlocks
... most damage, utility and unrivaled burst aoe for Lei Shen? warlocks
Gate was also extremely strong on multiple of these fights.
Mages were far from bad but if you had 0 of each you would take a warlock any day of the week over a mage.

[teddabear]

We have a single spec that I consider genuinely viable as Affliction is currently dead in PvE and Destruction isn't in a much better place. Demonology currently is a very well rounded spec but having a single properly tuned spec out of 3 is really bad. Even mages have at minimum 2 specs they can play (Arcane/Fire) & hunters have 2 (BM/Surv). Being a good class isn't solely about damage but it also has to do with how the class plays. As warlocks currently stand they aren't an overly engaging class and that is an issue. The one thing that make warlocks fun to me was snapshotting as it rewarded me for playing well....thats gone. Sure, you can argue that Eles/Spriest/Moonkins all lost it too but none of those have a spec where 90% of your damage is DoTs. The fact that other classes feel they are being ignored doesn't make their pleas any more important than ours and as a pure DPS we should be able to choose from more than 1 spec.

Mages were the top class in T14 and T15 and Warlocks didn't take over until T16. Mages are still at the top, your logic is flawed.

You must be referring to target dummies, Locks were way better than Mages on almost every boss in MoP. Warlocks were so OP they got too big to fail. Blizzard wouldn't nerf them because guilds had become so dependent on their DPS.

That may play some role in Warlocks current situation but I have no idea. I never said it was a good reason, I don't care one way or the other.

Half the classes in the game only have 1 decent spec. Warlocks are not a special snowflake, a lot of players have the same problem or worse.

As far as how the spec plays I would put the number that are rewarding at around 10% in WoL.

At least you can change specs with the same gear, a lot of specs can't do that.

You are correct that the game was much better with snapshotting and Mages are currently OP.

[Novx]

First of all, I'm not defending anyone who's saying stuff like "warlocks are getting punished for being good for too long" it's just stupid. Also, healthstones were a real raid utility back in that tier.

When you say "they were better", do you only look at boss damage or epeenbot (and I'm pretty sure locks were still topping there) when you make that statement or what do you actually mean by that?
Who brought the most useful damage for Horridon? warlocks
... most damage for Council? warlocks
... slows for Tortos? warlocks
... damage and utility for Megaera? warlocks
... damage for Durumu walls? warlocks (and shamans)
... insane add control and damage on Primordius? warlocks
... dmg reduction capable of soaking the swaps with ease combined with a pet and high damage? warlocks
... most damage, utility and unrivaled burst aoe for Lei Shen? warlocks
Gate was also extremely strong on multiple of these fights.
Mages were far from bad but if you had 0 of each you would take a warlock any day of the week over a mage.

Tortos: Fair enough
Council: Mages were still top 2 on that either way
Megaera: Mages were more effective dps, a lot of warlocks damage there came to inactive heads that we had dotted.
Durumu walls: This is probably the only time I would agree mages dps was poor but at the same time they had significantly higher boss DPS there.
Primordius: That relied 100% on buffs and I think EVERYONE would agree with that. If a fire mage got 3+ crit buffs that wasn't even a competition and the same can be said if a warlock got 3 haste buffs.
Damage reduction: again, fair enough.
Lei Shen: We weren't the highest damage on that but rather we had high burst for adds, that is really it. I suppose we also had a gateway for that but that is average at best utility in my eyes because the "fix" for not having a gateway was just moving forward a few feet. Keep in mind mages also had the ability to solo soak numerous platforms which made that fight much easier.

I never said warlocks were bad in ToT, we weren't, but our class wasn't the best. You put a full BiS mage missing 1 BiS trinket in ToT and you put a full BiS warlock missing UVLS in ToT and that mage would top that warlock on probably every encounter. The class was balanced around a trinket rather than a trinket being balanced around a class and it quite honestly ruined an entire tier for us and skewed a lot of shit.

You must be referring to target dummies, Locks were way better than Mages on almost every boss in MoP. Warlocks were so OP they got too big to fail. Blizzard wouldn't nerf them because guilds had become so dependent on their DPS.

That may play some role in Warlocks current situation but I have no idea. I never said it was a good reason, I don't care one way or the other.

Half the classes in the game only have 1 decent spec. Warlocks are not a special snowflake, a lot of players have the same problem or worse.

As far as how the spec plays I would put the number that are rewarding at around 10% in WoL.

At least you can change specs with the same gear, a lot of specs can't do that.

You are correct that the game was much better with snapshotting and Mages are currently OP.

The way you worded that first statement tells me you are referring to SoO. Blizzard never stated they had an issue nerfing warlocks until SoO after guilds had already killed Garrosh and they made the wrong decision there, they should have nerfed us. Actually, not even nerf, fix soul swap.

Second, half the classes in the game only have 1 decent spec? That may be the most mindblowing thing I have ever read. In fact that only class that I think can argue that their secondary spec currently is seriously lacking is Death Knights. Using the argument that "Oh, well my spec is flawed so fuck you" is the stupidest thing someone can do. It's the same as when they nerfed our movement and shadow priests came to the warlock forums going "LOLOLOLOLOL"....No....rather than settling with Blizzard being utterly incompetent when it comes to balancing we should be pressuring them to fix things rather than just laugh at other classes that get nerfed. Spriests laughing at warlocks that got a movement nerf was the stupidest thing I have ever seen and if anything you would think they would agree with us that movement should be buffed and not nerfed considering they know how bad it is to be an immobile class.

We can't change specs with the same gear any more so than a hunter can. Sure, our enchants are the same but that is because we enchant for Mastery for the sake of being able to play Demo. If you truly want to be optimal as Destruction you go Crit but we can't do that as it sucks for Demo as compared to Haste and Mastery (which for the record, haste, sucks for Destro).

TLDR (for 2nd part): 1 class having a bad spec doesn't mean another should suffer. I want class developers back.

[teddabear]

Tortos: Fair enough
Council: Mages were still top 2 on that either way
Megaera: Mages were more effective dps, a lot of warlocks damage there came to inactive heads that we had dotted.
Durumu walls: This is probably the only time I would agree mages dps was poor but at the same time they had significantly higher boss DPS there.
Primordius: That relied 100% on buffs and I think EVERYONE would agree with that. If a fire mage got 3+ crit buffs that wasn't even a competition and the same can be said if a warlock got 3 haste buffs.
Damage reduction: again, fair enough.
Lei Shen: We weren't the highest damage on that but rather we had high burst for adds, that is really it. I suppose we also had a gateway for that but that is average at best utility in my eyes because the "fix" for not having a gateway was just moving forward a few feet. Keep in mind mages also had the ability to solo soak numerous platforms which made that fight much easier.

I never said warlocks were bad in ToT, we weren't, but our class wasn't the best. You put a full BiS mage missing 1 BiS trinket in ToT and you put a full BiS warlock missing UVLS in ToT and that mage would top that warlock on probably every encounter. The class was balanced around a trinket rather than a trinket being balanced around a class and it quite honestly ruined an entire tier for us and skewed a lot of shit.



The way you worded that first statement tells me you are referring to SoO. Blizzard never stated they had an issue nerfing warlocks until SoO after guilds had already killed Garrosh and they made the wrong decision there, they should have nerfed us. Actually, not even nerf, fix soul swap.

Second, half the classes in the game only have 1 decent spec? That may be the most mindblowing thing I have ever read. In fact that only class that I think can argue that their secondary spec currently is seriously lacking is Death Knights. Using the argument that "Oh, well my spec is flawed so fuck you" is the stupidest thing someone can do. It's the same as when they nerfed our movement and shadow priests came to the warlock forums going "LOLOLOLOLOL"....No....rather than settling with Blizzard being utterly incompetent when it comes to balancing we should be pressuring them to fix things rather than just laugh at other classes that get nerfed. Spriests laughing at warlocks that got a movement nerf was the stupidest thing I have ever seen and if anything you would think they would agree with us that movement should be buffed and not nerfed considering they know how bad it is to be an immobile class.

We can't change specs with the same gear any more so than a hunter can. Sure, our enchants are the same but that is because we enchant for Mastery for the sake of being able to play Demo. If you truly want to be optimal as Destruction you go Crit but we can't do that as it sucks for Demo as compared to Haste and Mastery (which for the record, haste, sucks for Destro).

TLDR (for 2nd part): 1 class having a bad spec doesn't mean another should suffer. I want class developers back.

For the third time I never said it was justified.

Making any comparisons without UVLS is pretty ridiculous.

The importance of +armor gear for tanking has seriously limited the options of classes with tanks specs. Classes that have caster and physical damage specs are even more limited.

I do have one tip for you. Feral was a dead spec until this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK1GKBTwyoo

Feral didn't receive the buff that was wanted or needed but Blizzard did make them viable again.

Somebody might want to try a similar tactic, if it's creative enough you may get some attention.

[Novx]

Feral has been a dead spec for years and always will be sadly My old main from Classic to Cata (went warlock in MoP because guild had none) and that class has always been either Moonkin is amazing OR Feral is amazing, never both. Feral still has the issues of being a god at single target but having issues in basically every other type of encounter but thats for a different forum.

[sarasun]

Sadly Feral suffers because of their absurd strength in PVP. If only there was a way to buff Feral in PVE but not in PVP...

[teddabear]

You just have to realize that most of the game is still in Alpha state, when it hits Beta Blizzard will probably give Warlocks some more attention. Hopefully there will still be some raid tiers left when that happens.

[Taalyn]

You just have to realize that most of the game is still in Alpha state, when it hits Beta Blizzard will probably give Warlocks some more attention. Hopefully there will still be some raid tiers left when that happens.

What? /10char

[Noxina]

You just have to realize that most of the game is still in Alpha state, when it hits Beta Blizzard will probably give Warlocks some more attention. Hopefully there will still be some raid tiers left when that happens.

I assume you are trying to be funny? And that you are trying to imply that warlocks are in a bad spot at the moment? Weird.
I just started to raid on my lock as a main (678ilvl after the ilvl buff), and I can do 30k+ dps ST easy, and I don't even have my 4set yet. I honestly don't understand why so many feel warlocks are in a bad spot at the moment. Yes, we don't have a boomie AOE, or a mage burst, but we are just fine. Everyone can't be at the top, just as everyone can't be at the bottom, and I don't have a problem being mid-top really.

[Everlet]

i kinda think aff could use a rework it feels super gutted after mop, and a small numbers buff to destro aff. Demo is fine warlocks are decent but 1 of 3 specs being useable is kinda bad