[Megathread] The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited

[Kathandira]

It's an entirely different game. Very different from other MMORPG's on the market. Everything in that game is a marathon, not a sprint.

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^Yeah, this.

Eek, i'm glad I didn't get into that one. It looked really pretty, but I didn't really hear much about it. Maybe this is why, the players are too busy grinding = )

Nothing against it though, just not my cupa. I live for lore and story.

[Edge-]

So THAT's why you have such ridiculous stats early on? I thought it was bonkers how your first spells did 5k damage and stuff.

Is there a way to remove it, or is this just how the game is?

Just how the game is. They got a lot of flak over the years for the linear leveling locking off huge chunks of the game or trivializing old content and whatnot so this was their solution. IMO a voluntary scaling option would be better, but it's effective and achieves its goals.

Can't remove it, though. You'll still gain power, it will just come via gear upgrades (gear gets better up through champion level 160) and more skill points unlocking better skills/more passives etc.

It's similar to GW2, but rather than you scaling to the zones the zones and you all scale to a set level.

[Jinxz]

It says elswyr will be coming to PC May 20th on early access, does that mean it launches on that date?

[Kathandira]

It says elswyr will be coming to PC May 20th on early access, does that mean it launches on that date?

I think it just means that some people will get early access, while the rest have to wait for the actual launch date.

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I mean leveling up your character only grants 64 skill and attribute points. The skill points could easily be folded in other activities as could your attribute points. Heck, easy solution: you gain skill points and attribute points based on your class skill line levels (either your highest or some other way of calculating it). You'd still spend enough time progressing since you'd want to level everything else anyway.

Keep it real simple. Each time a new skill is available, it is auto unlocked. No points to distribute at all. Would also remove the cost for respec if you already have all the skills available. Same with Morphs, just make them changeable on the fly.

Yeah, it removes a time and money sink, but really, that stuff is silly any how.

[Kathandira]

I mean a committed player can get so many skill points they will never realistically run out. My Templar has enough skills to cover Healer, Beamplar, Tank and PvP healer builts, all of crafting and still had more than enough points for some thieving skills.

No doubt. On my main/crafter, I have more than enough skill points. On my 5 alts, I only needed the skill points I was given while leveling to have enough to get the character set to go. I really only had to farm skill points on 1 character, and really not that many of them.

I think to bridge the gap between the casual and committed players removing the skill point system all together would be helpful.

Though there is a pretty huge catch...what to do about Skyshards? If their function is removed, then what is the point in them? That would definitely have to be addressed if my idea was considered.

[Fkiolaris]

Obviously it's a subjective opinion, but I don't agree with removing a number of the things mentioned here in terms of new-alt/pre-50/CP160 character progression. I appreciate I only have one lvl50 and a bunch of pre-50 alts (in other words, I haven't done these things multiple times), but I believe there is a fine line between removing elements that are token items on a list to tick (ie the daily training) and pure gameplay elements.

I would be more than happy and 100% behind removing the riding/sprint/bag daily training for every character, especially if one of them has done the full shebang. But levels, pre-CP160 sets and items and skill points in general, I would still like them to be present as part of a game that is supposed to be an MMORPG at the end of the day. I fully appreciate and accept that one man's "must be present" is another's "it's an unnecessary chore", but this is my opinion. I guess one way to tackle this would be to make certain things optional, ie giving you a stacking buff or pushing the starting point per character-meeting-a-specific-checkpoint to have on new character if you like. This could be anything, from how much XP you gain or which level you start etc., but as an option it could keep more than group of people happy.

[Fkiolaris]

See it's not really just a chore. You will already have to spend a good deal of time to become effective, just to level skills and acquire skill points. You have access to almost everything at lvl 1 except dungeons, and those become available fairly fast as you level. Ultimately leveling is something you will do anyway, the only difference is that now, gear you gain while leveling is useless (up to CP160 for your first character and up to lvl 50 for every other character after that)

I understand what you say, but I respectfully disagree. I mean with this logic, if you want to take it further then all pre-CP160 gear is useless. And then all CP160 gear that is not what you want for the specific character is useless, unless you can pass it to an alt that would have a use for it. Do we also remove all of that? And so on and so forth and at some stage one would have to ask "what is the point of gearing?" then. I am not saying it can't be done, GW2 in sPvP mode used to have something similar, but I can't say I was a huge fan of it or that I would even want to consider it for PvE.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on the matter and nothing more than that.

[Fkiolaris]

Honestly, most CP 160 gear in ESO can be useful. What set is optimal keeps changing after all and they can always rebalance.
You can get to CP 160 fairly fast. And in ESO you have many other reasons to quest and do things anyway. For one thing, the quests tend to be quite fun so they are worth doing just for that, not to mention the skill points, mementos and yes, gear if at max level. And you want the experience at all times to level more skills and gain more CP. Ultimately the leveling would still be there. The first character you rolled would still have to get to CP 160 after all and that would take as long if not longer than getting to 50 after all.

Yes, but I was referring to everything non-set, which is the majority of drops even at CP160. And I know and agree 100% about the quests, which is why I support the notion that ZOS should put solo-mode dungeons with the next DLS and the expansion so that useless hacks like myself that can only do 5k dps can also experience the story of the dungeons at our leisure. But that's another topic altogether.

[Fkiolaris]

That would be cool, that's true. Especially for the DLC dungeons. Though I would suggest that they drop no sets for balance reasons.
At the same time, I think that ESO dungeons could definitely use more dungeons modes. Right now, half the dungeons are piss easy even in Veteran, with only the endboss hardmode being a slight challenge while most of the DLC ones are too hard even on normal. So:
a) A story modes that is meant to be soloed and is about as hard as a public dungeon
b) A normal mode that is less of a pushover (At the level of normal White Gold Tower?)
c) A veteran mode that is at the level of the old Veterans (So about as hard as vCoA2)
d) A hard mode where every boss is about as hard as new DLC hard modes, that has a chance to drop gold gear.

I mean just look at the prologue for Elsweyr. People struggle with normal modes since Cradle of Shadows and the new ones are even harder. Yet the prologue as a story follows the stories in the DLC dungeons.

While I am not sure about the specific dungeons that you refer to as I don't think/know if I have done them, I completely agree with what you suggest as a general idea, including the no set drops on story mode.

[Witchblade77]

That would be cool, that's true. Especially for the DLC dungeons. Though I would suggest that they drop no sets for balance reasons.
At the same time, I think that ESO dungeons could definitely use more dungeons modes. Right now, half the dungeons are piss easy even in Veteran, with only the endboss hardmode being a slight challenge while most of the DLC ones are too hard even on normal. So:
a) A story modes that is meant to be soloed and is about as hard as a public dungeon
b) A normal mode that is less of a pushover (At the level of normal White Gold Tower?)
c) A veteran mode that is at the level of the old Veterans (So about as hard as vCoA2)
d) A hard mode where every boss is about as hard as new DLC hard modes, that has a chance to drop gold gear.

I mean just look at the prologue for Elsweyr. People struggle with normal modes since Cradle of Shadows and the new ones are even harder. Yet the prologue as a story follows the stories in the DLC dungeons.

THIS. I'm half tempted to link your post to official forums. been arguing with people who think dungeons are perfectly fine and you can totally do them for the story in a group and other nonsense.

P.S. especially your difficulty ranges. since normal gold tower while not a complete pushover is several magnitudes more puggable then woflhunter dungeons especially. yes even planar inhibitor.

[Witchblade77]

And ultimately this far more about giving the harcore more content to do. Seriously if you are harcore, the only thing that will challenge you is Vet Trials and some of the Vet Dungeons (or JUST their hard modes). They could give a hard mode version of everything and thus enable gold loot. Just expect every boss to be at the level of Balorgh HM.

indeed. some people though doubt that its financially viable for ZoS to do. becasue "drumroll" they would have done it already if it was. becasue as we all know companies get everything right from the start right? /sarcasm

but seriously though making this content more accessible WILL result in more sales, more retention and as a result - more funds to create more content, becasue now there is a better justification to create more content. These people though are no different from WoW's lfr haters.

[Witchblade77]

I'd be perfectly OK to sacrifice a Dungeon DLC for a quarter to get dungeon difficulty to be more modular. Everyone would have something to gain since everyone would have access to new relevant content if such a change was made.

And by all accounts, Frostvault will be impossible to PuG even on normal. Heck I saw people run it on veteran on a stream and it just looked ridiculous. Two out of four quarters are dungeon DLC that are only relevant for a tiny part of the playerbase, that is just stupid.

yep and same and just... I honestly think that ZoS is too stubborn at this point to give in, same as the hardcores are. becasue you get these DLC's whether you want to or not with ESO plus and ESO plus is kinda necessary if you are seriously into housing and/or crafting (more so for housing, since as good as craft bag is - it IS possible to play without it, it is NOT possible to decorate well without having bare spots on non subscriber limits). but as much as I'm enjoying the game, I'm genuinely considering canceling my subscription and just finishing my in progress decorating projects before current chunk of time runs out.

aside from slightly missing convenience of craft bag, I'm actualy finding playing (specifically group content) on my side account that has no acess to dungeon DLC's other then imperial city - far FAR more fun.

[Fkiolaris]

indeed. some people though doubt that its financially viable for ZoS to do. becasue "drumroll" they would have done it already if it was. becasue as we all know companies get everything right from the start right? /sarcasm

but seriously though making this content more accessible WILL result in more sales, more retention and as a result - more funds to create more content, becasue now there is a better justification to create more content. These people though are no different from WoW's lfr haters.

Yes, unfortunately this is the impression I am getting on the ESO forums as well. And while I can understand to a small extend some of the lfr complains in WoW (because it would give for example trinkets that were BiS other than their higher ilvl counterparts from Normal/Heroic/Mythic), nobody is suggesting that solo dungeons should give set pieces, just have the story and relevant quest to do. I strongly believe that ZOS will introduce the solo version (it's bound to have a higher-up at some stage asking the question "why do we spend money on quest and instance design and voice-overs in dungeons when practically nobody sees them?"), my concern is that they will be too stubborn and too late with it. But yeah, if the expansion launches without it, I am stopping my ESO plus and if the game is not enjoyable like that, then I am looking at other games. I am too old to waste a minute on things I consider to be pure BS anymore.

On a lighter note, I also hope with the new expansion they have a look at some of the set bonuses and how they work, especially the proc-based ones. For example, I managed to get the Med Trinkerer from Clockwork city and when it actually works, it's just one of the most visually enjoyable sets I have acquired in any MMO I have ever played. However, it often fails to function due to a number of reasons (delay to load, pathing issues, general movement in an action-combat game), making it useless on a regular basis.

[Kathandira]

Not into the idea of solo dungeons exactly. To be made totally solo, mechanics would have to be reworked for a lot of them. If they are going to invest time into doing anything to old content, id rather them add npcs that fill missing roles. The Undaunted Team would be perfect as it would fit the story. If they are going to do it, make it far more interesting than just nerfing the place so some people can do the content they aren’t capable of.

[Fkiolaris]

Not into the idea of solo dungeons exactly. To be made totally solo, mechanics would have to be reworked for a lot of them. If they are going to invest time into doing anything to old content, id rather them add npcs that fill missing roles. The Undaunted Team would be perfect as it would fit the story. If they are going to do it, make it far more interesting than just nerfing the place so some people can do the content they aren’t capable of.

You, the capable one(s) have the dungeons and trials as is, with their challenges and fancy rewards. Us, the incapable ones, just want to experience the story and the quest within the dungeons, without any fancy rewards in a separate setting that does not change anything from what you already have. I fail to see how letting us do that has any impact on your content, its challenges and the associated enjoyment, especially when for us the story is one of the major aspects we keep playing the game and all we ask is as much: let us experience the story. Every other MMO that had main stories locked behind dungeons and raids eventually came to the conclusion that it's NOT worth making that content if so few people get to experience it and incorporated relevant systems to deal with it (LFR, solo dungeons, role-agnostic dungeons etc). The point is for ZOS not to waste another expansion doing the same moronic thing and lose players because of it.

[Kathandira]

You, the capable one(s) have the dungeons and trials as is, with their challenges and fancy rewards. Us, the incapable ones, just want to experience the story and the quest within the dungeons, without any fancy rewards in a separate setting that does not change anything from what you already have. I fail to see how letting us do that has any impact on your content, its challenges and the associated enjoyment, especially when for us the story is one of the major aspects we keep playing the game and all we ask is as much: let us experience the story. Every other MMO that had main stories locked behind dungeons and raids eventually came to the conclusion that it's NOT worth making that content if so few people get to experience it and incorporated relevant systems to deal with it (LFR, solo dungeons, role-agnostic dungeons etc). The point is for ZOS not to waste another expansion doing the same moronic thing and lose players because of it.

Not sure if you follow it, but this past year has been their most successful, harder dungeons and all. Im advocating a story mode, just in a way that they don’t hve to change mexhanics that involve more than 1 person. A simple example is Fungal Grotto 2. This cannot be solo’d unless you remove the mechanic where the boss chains a player to the ground. Same with Fang Lair, same mechanic. If the chain isn’t broken, the chained player dies. If there is only 1 player, it is a wipe. There are more places where you absolutely need other players to open doors and such, some of it tied to the story itself.

With the npc helpers, they can execute those mechanics and make sure you succeed. It would be less work, and wouldn’t take away the dungeon designers vision for the place. I don’t see how anyone could be against that.

[Kathandira]

Do they have the necessary AI to get this done?

Surely, shouldn’t be difficult for a tank npc to taunt things. Dps to hit things and bash things, and a healer to spam aoe heals and hots. They can be made quite tuned up power wise.

Id even go so far as to say that even if you die, the fight continues, and you get a normal rez as if you were out of combat.

The player would be an interactive observer, which fits the “story mode” idea.

[Fkiolaris]

Not sure if you follow it, but this past year has been their most successful, harder dungeons and all. Im advocating a story mode, just in a way that they don’t hve to change mexhanics that involve more than 1 person. A simple example is Fungal Grotto 2. This cannot be solo’d unless you remove the mechanic where the boss chains a player to the ground. Same with Fang Lair, same mechanic. If the chain isn’t broken, the chained player dies. If there is only 1 player, it is a wipe. There are more places where you absolutely need other players to open doors and such, some of it tied to the story itself.

With the npc helpers, they can execute those mechanics and make sure you succeed. It would be less work, and wouldn’t take away the dungeon designers vision for the place. I don’t see how anyone could be against that.

Nothing to do with the biggest MMO around bleeding subs left, right and centre and plenty of those people checking other MMOs, with ESO and FFXIV being the main ones on everybody's list, absolutely nothing at all. Not myself or plenty of others in all my guilds in the game.

As for what you say, the simple solution is to entirely remove those mechanics in story mode, which if nothing else it will create a nice progression of extra boss abilities from Story to Normal, rather than "the boss has more HP and hits harder". Trying to make NPCs react correctly in place of actual players for every single dungeon is as much faff, if not more, than turning the dungeons into solo, story adventures. They have both options in the game already (public dungeons on one hand, quests where a group of NPCs follow and contribute on the other), but the mechanics in question and in general if I may add, would need to AI to go up more than a level or two.

[Kathandira]

Part of the reason for the npc path would be to preserve the mechanics allowing them to be experienced. Its one thing to make things easier, its another to redesign them.

[Fkiolaris]

I think WoW might actually be able to do this because they have been building NPC AI substantially. You could then let the NPCs loose and maybe add a few extra triggers and it would work. But what Kathandira is suggesting is a fully scripted NPC to run every encounter and that just sounds like an insane amount of work.

I agree, but at the end of the day what either of us says is kind of moot if ZOS doesn't take any action. Hopefully they will soon enough, starting first with the dungeons of the new expansion and slowly reworking all the previous ones. It doesn't have to be "all dungeons right now" from next month, but the new ones coming out should be for sure.