Total War: WARHAMMER - Official anounced

[Jastall]

I wouldn't say spearmen, archers, halberdiers, scorpios, chariots, horse archers or shock cavalry become "fantastical" just because they're elves. Those are regular units for the most part and they behave that way in terms of gameplay.

...Plus three varieties of dragons, two of phoenixes, Great Eagles, Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters who are definitely more fantasy than any bear cav (they deflect arrows with their greatswords ffs). No, I really don't think Kislev is more magic than elves because they have lots of bears and 3 units on ice sleds. Pretty much the only less fantasy factions are Bretonnia and the Empire- and for the Brets you have to ignore their totally ridiculous background lore and not count superhuman knights as fantasy otherwise it's just the Empire. Well, according to what we know of the roster at least, we still don't have the full list on that which grows increasingly annoying.

And Third Age is 1) a mod, so has a niche appeal to begin with, and 2) set in a far lower fantasy setting than Warhammer, Beginning of the End Times is a more apt comparison and that crams as much usual Warhammer sillyness as it can get away with using their ressources. The design priorities for both universes are nowhere near the same, it's like saying 2001 looks more grounded than Star Wars, well duh, because Star Wars doesn't give any fucks about realism. Warhammer is a balls-out ridiculous setting and is better off being balls-out ridiculous to a certain degree, historical TWs are there for authenticity. Again, I do think they went a bit far with Kislev compared to my idea of the faction, but compared to the setting as a whole? Dang, the Doomwheel alone is far more stupid than all of Kislev's fantasy units put together.

[Nerovar]

...Plus three varieties of dragons, two of phoenixes, Great Eagles, Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters who are definitely more fantasy than any bear cav (they deflect arrows with their greatswords ffs). No, I really don't think Kislev is more magic than elves because they have lots of bears and 3 units on ice sleds. Pretty much the only less fantasy factions are Bretonnia and the Empire- and for the Brets you have to ignore their totally ridiculous background lore and not count superhuman knights as fantasy otherwise it's just the Empire. Well, according to what we know of the roster at least, we still don't have the full list on that which grows increasingly annoying.

And Third Age is 1) a mod, so has a niche appeal to begin with, and 2) set in a far lower fantasy setting than Warhammer, Beginning of the End Times is a more apt comparison and that crams as much usual Warhammer sillyness as it can get away with using their ressources. The design priorities for both universes are nowhere near the same, it's like saying 2001 looks more grounded than Star Wars, well duh, because Star Wars doesn't give any fucks about realism. Warhammer is a balls-out ridiculous setting and is better off being balls-out ridiculous to a certain degree, historical TWs are there for authenticity. Again, I do think they went a bit far with Kislev compared to my idea of the faction, but compared to the setting as a whole? Dang, the Doomwheel alone is far more stupid than all of Kislev's fantasy units put together.

"Three varities of dragons" that's three reskins of the same unit same goes for phoenixes. I wouldn't count Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters as fantastical units either because for all intents and purposes these guys are just halberdiers and greatswords. Yes, I'm aware of their lore but we're mostly talking about aesthetics here. The fact that these guys look more down to earth than the Ice Guard of Kislev pretty much proves my point.

I totally forgot about the Warhammer mod and it's actually really funny that you mention it because it's also much more down to earth in its depiction of Kislev (and it more closely resembles the tabletop units and artworks).

And again: of course the fantastical races are overall going to be more... fantastical than the humans. This is the way the lore is written. But that only makes the presentation of Kislev worse because it's so incredibly out of line. When you compare an army of humans with an army of elves from magic island and the humans somehow have more magic glow stuff, then something clearly went wrong here.

[Jastall]

"Three varities of dragons" that's three reskins of the same unit same goes for phoenixes. I wouldn't count Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters as fantastical units either because for all intents and purposes these guys are just halberdiers and greatswords. Yes, I'm aware of their lore but we're mostly talking about aesthetics here. The fact that these guys look more down to earth than the Ice Guard of Kislev pretty much proves my point.

I totally forgot about the Warhammer mod and it's actually really funny that you mention it because it's also much more down to earth in its depiction of Kislev (and it more closely resembles the tabletop units and artworks).

And again: of course the fantastical races are overall going to be more... fantastical than the humans. This is the way the lore is written. But that only makes the presentation of Kislev worse because it's so incredibly out of line. When you compare an army of humans with an army of elves from magic island and the humans somehow have more magic glow stuff, then something clearly went wrong here.

I mean if Swordmasters and Phoenix Guards with their over the top armor and being elves isn't fantasy then neither is bear cavalry, and if reskins count as one unit then Little Grom and the two wagons are also just one unit. I feel like you're making fairly arbitrary categories to justify your subjective opinion. I really wouldn't say that Phoenix Guards or even Dragon Princes look more down to earth than Ice Guards or Gryphon Legion either. There's more to fantasy aesthetics than how many glowy bits the armor has.

Plus, while I dislike their bow personally, Ice Guards are literally wizards, just less skilled ones than Ice Witches in magic. It's the one unit that should look fantasy besides the giant ice bear.

[Nerovar]

I mean if Swordmasters and Phoenix Guards with their over the top armor and being elves isn't fantasy then neither is bear cavalry, and if reskins count as one unit then Little Grom and the two wagons are also just one unit. I feel like you're making fairly arbitrary categories to justify your subjective opinion. I really wouldn't say that Phoenix Guards or even Dragon Princes look more down to earth than Ice Guards or Gryphon Legion either. There's more to fantasy aesthetics than how many glowy bits the armor has.

Plus, while I dislike their bow personally, Ice Guards are literally wizards, just less skilled ones than Ice Witches in magic. It's the one unit that should look fantasy besides the giant ice bear.

I personally don't see it. Phoenix guards and Swordmasters have fancy armor, sure (as you would expect from elves). But at the end of the day it's just plate armor mixed with scale armor with really pretty ornaments. It certainly doesn't look particularly outlandish when compared with historical armor worn by higher ranking military (look up Spahbed for example) or late Roman helmets adorned with all kinds of jewels or even medieval armor worn by noblemen. It's completely different from having literal magic sticking out of your equipment for no apparent reason.

Just think about it for a second. Why do high elves which are infinitely more magically adapt than Kislevites not use magic in their war engines like chariots/bolt throwers (setting aside Skycutters as they're not in the game) but Kislevites somehow do? Don't you think there's some kind of dissonance here?

Edit:

I mean, it probably would have been enough to have the bears relegated to one part of the army that has some kind connection to the cult of Ursun and have the icy parts separate. The way Kislev has been built up in TWW3 seems like they're just throwing all their different themes into a pot and mixing it together without much consideration. It just doesn't work for me because it devalues the individual themes. The Empire is so great as a faction because the way their military is structured tells us something about how their society works. The Knightly Orders, the state troops, the engineers, the college of magic, the Sigmarite priests... all of those sub-factions are separate institutions with no real overlap and you can tell by just looking at their models. This simply isn't the case when you look at nu-Kislev and because of the lack of delineations everything becomes muddied.
It's just GW's current day modus operandi - make flashy models and fuck the world building.

[Jastall]

I personally don't see it. Phoenix guards and Swordmasters have fancy armor, sure (as you would expect from elves). But at the end of the day it's just plate armor mixed with scale armor with really pretty ornaments. It certainly doesn't look particularly outlandish when compared with historical armor worn by higher ranking military (look up Spahbed for example) or late Roman helmets adorned with all kinds of jewels or even medieval armor worn by noblemen. It's completely different from having literal magic sticking out of your equipment for no apparent reason.

Just think about it for a second. Why do high elves which are infinitely more magically adapt than Kislevites not use magic in their war engines like chariots/bolt throwers (setting aside Skycutters as they're not in the game) but Kislevites somehow do? Don't you think there's some kind of dissonance here?

Edit:

I mean, it probably would have been enough to have the bears relegated to one part of the army that has some kind connection to the cult of Ursun and have the icy parts separate. The way Kislev has been built up in TWW3 seems like they're just throwing all their different themes into a pot and mixing it together without much consideration. It just doesn't work for me because it devalues the individual themes. The Empire is so great as a faction because the way their military is structured tells us something about how their society works. The Knightly Orders, the state troops, the engineers, the college of magic, the Sigmarite priests... all of those sub-factions are separate institutions with no real overlap and you can tell by just looking at their models. This simply isn't the case when you look at nu-Kislev and because of the lack of delineations everything becomes muddied.
It's just GW's current day modus operandi - make flashy models and fuck the world building.

Fancy armor in real life was almost exclusively used for parades and associated ceremonies. Those Medieval kings, Germanic chieftains and Roman Tribunes were seldom stupid enough to go to an actual battle wearing gilded armor or jeweled helmets unless they planned to just not fight at all. Whereas the High Elves make a point of going to war in the fanciest getup they can get their hands on, they're not called the Glittering Host for nothing. It's definitely not the same thing to me. Compare the HE spearmen or archer to his Kislevite counterpart, one looks down to earth and it's not the one sparkling in the sun. HEs will always look more fantasy than Kislev to me, and let's not get into the Dark Elves which are far sillier as soon as you leave behind their low-tier units.

Now perhaps that's a design decision from CA. The low tier troops look rag-tag, elites look more glamorous than the Empire's. This class divide was even highlighted in today's blog post about Kostaltyn and how he and his populist ways are at odds with Katarina's ice magic and nobility. The Ungol vs Gospodar theme, and magic vs religion one, were a thing in old Kislev lore and is probably on the nose here, with Ungol troops looking like they have cobbled together equipment but Gospodar elites in good standing with the Ice Witches have them bless their equipment with shiny bits. Personally I think it mostly works, again except for the bow of the Ice Guard which looks overdesigned.

That said, I agree with your second paragraph. The magic ice sled does look out of place. I'd just have put the thing on normal sleds, it gets the "winter" theme across and while it's not practical in southern climes, well, it's not like Warhammer siege equipment and vehicles are at all practical at the best of times anyway. The Steam Tank's rickety wheels should collapse under its weight and there's no way two horses would ever pull Volkmar's humongous pimp wagon. But yeah, the ice just looks garrish and I'd ditch it as well. Hopefully CA has the will and time to do so before release.

[Corvus]

There is a simple fix for the Bears and ice - don't recruit them. They're going to be high tier stuff anyway so it'll be a while before you can recruit them anyway.

[KrayZ33]

It worked really well for the LotR setting with Third Age Total War which is widely regarded as one of the best mods ever made.

Well... no.
Third Age is a mod, and most likely more than 95% of the TW playerbase didn't even touch it.
So "widely regarded" is a buzz word that doesn't reflect reality.
I didn't even play it and I played all TW games so far. (Except Three Kingdoms and the Rome Remaster)

It's a different setting than Warhammer as well.

But again, the point remains.
If you use 20 Bear-Cav sleds per army that's on you.
That's most likey not how any custom game army will look like with a limited budget.
That's not how any army looks like in the game right now.

"Doomstacks" is a thing that happens if you have unlimited recruiting power and money. They don't portray any "theme" at all.
The base of the Kislev army is 100% human and has basically nothing to do with magic.

I wouldn't say spearmen, archers, halberdiers, scorpios, chariots, horse archers or shock cavalry become "fantastical" just because they're elves. Those are regular units for the most part and they behave that way in terms of gameplay.

You compare T1-T2 troops to what most likely are T3-T4 Kislev troops.
And those T1-T2 troops are way more "fantastical" than the Kislev baseline units.
Their armor, formation, their strict discipline, their colours etc. etc.

[Nerovar]

"Doomstacks" is a thing that happens if you have unlimited recruiting power and money. They don't portray any "theme" at all.
The base of the Kislev army is 100% human and has basically nothing to do with magic.

That's not really how the mechanics of Total War Warhammer work. Doomstacks happen because the supply line mechanic makes it more cost-effective to run around with fewer armies full of the strongest possible units which pretty much means that you're shooting yourself in the foot if you recruit low-mid tier units in late game. I think the math was like 5 doomstacks that can usually 1v3 enemy armies equals 8 lower tier armies in terms of costs.

You compare T1-T2 troops to what most likely are T3-T4 Kislev troops.
And those T1-T2 troops are way more "fantastical" than the Kislev baseline units.
Their armor, formation, their strict discipline, their colours etc. etc.

Again, the point was that there's nothing inherently fantastical about the majority of the High Elves' roster at launch. All the elvish units were just infantry, bows, cavalry and war engines. None of them had any magical effects. So why do Kislev's war engines need magical effects when they're a less magical faction?

There is a simple fix for the Bears and ice - don't recruit them. They're going to be high tier stuff anyway so it'll be a while before you can recruit them anyway.

Don't recruit the high tier units in a series where only high tier units are viable in the late game. Makes sense.

[KrayZ33]

That's not really how the mechanics of Total War Warhammer work. Doomstacks happen because the supply line mechanic makes it more cost-effective to run around with fewer armies full of the strongest possible units which pretty much means that you're shooting yourself in the foot if you recruit low-mid tier units in late game. I think the math was like 5 doomstacks that can usually 1v3 enemy armies equals 8 lower tier armies in terms of costs.

Arguing about game mechanics in a game that is technically over by turn 50 even at the highest difficulty, before most end game units are even available is kinda pointless.

Don't recruit the high tier units in a series where only high tier units are viable in the late game. Makes sense.

lol.
That's not even remotely true.

Again, the point was that there's nothing inherently fantastical about the majority of the High Elves' roster at launch. All the elvish units were just infantry, bows, cavalry and war engines. None of them had any magical effects. So why do Kislev's war engines need magical effects when they're a less magical faction?

Because their inferior knowledge and designs makes it so that they require it to work for example? Or because the Ice witch thought it's a good idea and the elves think it's not. There can be like a thousand reasons for it that is not related to the frequency of magic users at all.
The most obvious one being that the lore of ice is the strongest at places where it's cold and the reason why it only exists in Kislev and nowhere else afaik
What tier is that war engine?
Do you happen to know it?


Your point isn't about Kislev having mystical units, at least that's not the point you made.
Your point was that the majority of the units you field as Kislev is mystical and magical compared to other races.
And that's not a thing if your tier 1-2 troops are not of that quality.
The empire armies aren't 20 steam tanks or 20 demigryphs. They are 99,5% foot soldiers and that is reflected in the game with troops in the lower tier, the unit size and so on and so forth..

[Shiny212]

Don't recruit the high tier units in a series where only high tier units are viable in the late game. Makes sense.

"Viable"? Are we talking about the same game? You can conquer the entire world with empire archers, a tier zero unit, on legendary/very hard, and no it's not very difficult. Point being, you can recruit whatever you WANT in this game, there's nothing stopping you, ever.

Also what the hell are you on about in this thread? We haven't even seen the Kislev roster, we have no idea what the magical unit to realistic unit ratio is. Considering every single faction released so far, we can expect a balanced roster of regular troops, and high tier super troops.

My theory here is that you and alot of other angry keyboard warriors are just jumping on the "I hate ice sleds" bandwagon without any cogent arguments. To clarify, you can hate a design, I don't like every CA or GW design either, and that is fine.

[Easo]

Ehh, people, Warhammer (both universes) have always been over the top memey bullshit with pretty much zero realism and shitload of EPIC and pathos. I really, really do not get this problem, which in my mind simply does not exist in the first place. It still absolutely looks like at least half of Kislev troops are very very grounded. Fuck, how many "normal" troops does Empire get before the nth version of mage? I could almost argue that dwarves are more grounded (heh).

[Nerovar]

Arguing about game mechanics in a game that is technically over by turn 50 even at the highest difficulty, before most end game units are even available is kinda pointless.





lol.
That's not even remotely true.

"Viable"? Are we talking about the same game? You can conquer the entire world with empire archers, a tier zero unit, on legendary/very hard, and no it's not very difficult. Point being, you can recruit whatever you WANT in this game, there's nothing stopping you, ever.

Ok good luck beating the Chaos Invasion on Legendary with Empire archers, Swordsmen and Spearmen then.

Because their inferior knowledge and designs makes it so that they require it to work for example? Or because the Ice witch thought it's a good idea and the elves think it's not. There can be like a thousand reasons for it that is not related to the frequency of magic users at all.
The most obvious one being that the lore of ice is the strongest at places where it's cold and the reason why it only exists in Kislev and nowhere else afaik
What tier is that war engine?
Do you happen to know it?


Your point isn't about Kislev having mystical units, at least that's not the point you made.
Your point was that the majority of the units you field as Kislev is mystical and magical compared to other races.
And that's not a thing if your tier 1-2 troops are not of that quality.
The empire armies aren't 20 steam tanks or 20 demigryphs. They are 99,5% foot soldiers and that is reflected in the game with troops in the lower tier, the unit size and so on and so forth..

You seriously mean to tell me that Kislevites don't know how to build a sled or wagon that works without magic? Come on, dude. How am I supposed to engage with this?

Ok, let me spell it out for you again: if you have two factions and one of them is an ancient innately very magical race whereas the other is backward ass humans with a sect of rare magic users (which can also only be female) and the first faction's military somehow uses less magic than the military of the second faction (after they've been redesigned/"fleshed out" that is) then it's either very poor world building or a questionable depiction of the setting with very skewed priorities.

Also what the hell are you on about in this thread? We haven't even seen the Kislev roster, we have no idea what the magical unit to realistic unit ratio is. Considering every single faction released so far, we can expect a balanced roster of regular troops, and high tier super troops.

Super irrelevant if you take into consideration that they already have more magical units than High Elves had on launch. I mean, they even added random ice effects to what was previously just elite cavalry comprised of noble Gospodars (because apparently the Gryphon theme wasn't kewl enough).

My theory here is that you and alot of other angry keyboard warriors are just jumping on the "I hate ice sleds" bandwagon without any cogent arguments.

Maybe reread my posts before you start uttering "theories" about me that are completely worthless to this conversation. There is no "bandwagon". TWW has one of the most mindlessly apologetic communities in the entire gaming industry. The only reason some people level this mildest of criticisms against the game is because they are dissatisfied with GW's flanderization of Kislev and the Warhammer setting as a whole. I even said that just keeping the ice and bear stuff separate would be an easy solution to prevent these units from looking as overdesigned and out of place as they currently are.

For God's sake, we're talking about the equivalent of magical canons being pulled by demigryphs on a platform that is floating on Sigmar magic here. We all know that these units wouldn't exist if Kislev's roster had been fleshed out before End Times/Age of Sigmar so why are we pretending like this somehow fits neatly into the rest of the setting?

Ehh, people, Warhammer (both universes) have always been over the top memey bullshit with pretty much zero realism and shitload of EPIC and pathos. I really, really do not get this problem, which in my mind simply does not exist in the first place. It still absolutely looks like at least half of Kislev troops are very very grounded. Fuck, how many "normal" troops does Empire get before the nth version of mage? I could almost argue that dwarves are more grounded (heh).

It's a slippery slope with GW. Just look at what they did with the Space Wolves in Wh40k.

[Easo]

It's a slippery slope with GW. Just look at what they did with the Space Wolves in Wh40k.

Ok, I will give you this one - Wolf of the wulfen wolf's WOLVES. It truly is a work of some manager's overbrain.

[Jastall]

Ok, I will give you this one - Wolf of the wulfen wolf's WOLVES. It truly is a work of some manager's overbrain.

I do think the bear theme is overdone as well- giving one as mount to the Ice Witch and using them as draft animals for cannons is a bit much. It's not that bad and still not as silly as the Lizardmen having a dinosaur for literally every situation or the Tomb Kings being more Egyptian than the Egyptians ever were, but it does feel like they flanderized a lot of the nation into bears, ice, and bears made of ice. Now all we lack is ice made of bears I suppose.

The aesthetic can work very well; the bear cav looks awesome, Katarina looks awesome, the ice elemental looks awesome, the Ice Guard and Gryphon Legion are globally nice, but the sleds are where it goes overboard.

[Verdugo]

Ok, I will give you this one - Wolf of the wulfen wolf's WOLVES. It truly is a work of some manager's overbrain.

Dont forget this gem:



They really went into overdrive during their trademarking frenzy.

[Nerovar]

They really went into overdrive during their trademarking frenzy.

These are truly the darkest of times.

[KrayZ33]

Ok, let me spell it out for you again: if you have two factions and one of them is an ancient innately very magical race whereas the other is backward ass humans with a sect of rare magic users (which can also only be female) and the first faction's military somehow uses less magic than the military of the second faction (after they've been redesigned/"fleshed out" that is) then it's either very poor world building or a questionable depiction of the setting with very skewed priorities.

What makes you think the backwater country uses more magic in their military.
Because it has like 2 ice-magic sleds in between 50.000 troops?

What's so difficult to understand that the majority of the Kislev army isn't about bears but about simple troops, just like the empire?
Just like how the majority of the empire troops isn't about demigryphs or steam tanks.

I can build 60 steam tanks in this game and have enough money for another 100. Yet in actual lore there are only 12 of them or so.

As for "questionable depiction" that's quite funny considering that the model is a confirmed GW original and not a CA original.
But I'm sure you gonna tell us how your opinion about the matter is somehow more relevant than that of the creators and just can't accept the fact that you are looking at it from a wrong point of view.

[Easo]

What makes you think the backwater country uses more magic in their military.
Because it has like 2 ice-magic sleds in between 50.000 troops?

What's so difficult to understand that the majority of the Kislev army isn't about bears but about simple troops, just like the empire?
Just like how the majority of the empire troops isn't about demigryphs or steam tanks.

I can build 60 steam tanks in this game and have enough money for another 100. Yet in actual lore there are only 12 of them or so.

As for "questionable depiction" that's quite funny considering that the model is a confirmed GW original and not a CA original.
But I'm sure you gonna tell us how your opinion about the matter is somehow more relevant than that of the creators and just can't accept the fact that you are looking at it from a wrong point of view.

A bit offtopic, but I really do love running around with Franzer division, when Empire finally can afford it, it pays off right away. There were discussions on forum about that, but who cares, doomstacks are fun.

[KrayZ33]

A bit offtopic, but I really do love running around with Franzer division, when Empire finally can afford it, it pays off right away. There were discussions on forum about that, but who cares, doomstacks are fun.

I think they are pretty boring in masses tbh.
Just like any doomstack in general.

As mentioned earlier, it's not "required" (thankfully) and I think it's way more fun to actually have a very diverse set of units.
Looks cooler too.

I have the most fun with Skaven armies.
All kinds of different range weapon teams and machinery alongside the "silly" contraptions they use while "weeeeeee-ing" around, the DLC mortar units look absolutely awesome when you let it rain upon your enemies while they are being shot from MG42s - uhm Ratling guns or sniper fire.

[Nerovar]

What makes you think the backwater country uses more magic in their military.
Because it has like 2 ice-magic sleds in between 50.000 troops?

What's so difficult to understand that the majority of the Kislev army isn't about bears but about simple troops, just like the empire?
Just like how the majority of the empire troops isn't about demigryphs or steam tanks.

I can build 60 steam tanks in this game and have enough money for another 100. Yet in actual lore there are only 12 of them or so.

As for "questionable depiction" that's quite funny considering that the model is a confirmed GW original and not a CA original.
But I'm sure you gonna tell us how your opinion about the matter is somehow more relevant than that of the creators and just can't accept the fact that you are looking at it from a wrong point of view.

I don't know how many times I have to rephrase this for you: it's not about whether Kislev is actually more magical or whether their armies actually use more magic in the lore. It's about what the visuals communicate. If we had a hypothetical Warhammer game with the Empire as a faction and all of their higher tier troops were somehow only Sigmarite priests with glowing hammers and entire squads of battlewizards from the Colleges of Magic while the High Elf faction in that game was strictly Elven infantry, you'd probably assume the Empire to be the more magical faction even though the lore clearly states differently.

What's actually "quite funny" here is that you decide to appeal to authority by saying "duh GW owns the IP they most know what's best for the setting and everything they do is in line with the spirit of the original lore" when it was GW who made the genius move to nuke their own setting until the fans whined enough to get it back.