20 man mythic and its real impact.

[Jigga93]

leave mythic alone.

[Seezer]

Bring back 10man mythic and I guarantee you'll see a surge in sub #s and stability.

People that raid any difficulty are in the minority. Players that have raided the highest difficulty have been a fraction. 10 man mythic wouldn't budge numbers. Most of the people that want 10 man mythic are people that down a couple of mythic bosses start nerfs.

[JemiS]

People interested in mythic are raiding 20 man... people who did 10 man can still do normal and heroic.. it's only affecting a very small portion of people raiding, those who actually enjoyed 10 man raiding for the little time it lasted.

10 man has always been a problem to balance encounters, and you couldn't assume you had all the classes in your group, this is why it was stupid to have it in the first place..

If you want 10 man mythic, it would have to be encounters designed for 10 man, just like Karazhan or Zul'aman.

And yet numbers show that the number of individuals who were raiding heroic content in MoP are almost twice that of the individuals raiding mythic content in WoD.

Like it or not, this effected a significant portion of raiders negatively- far more than imbalance between 10 and 25 did previously.

I don't know why everyone focuses on 10 and 25 being perfectly evenly balanced- some fights are harder on one, some are harder on the other. They're not the same mode, it's not a direct competition.

If you're talking about world first/realm first race, that is something that truly effects a vanishingly small portion of the player base and, in my mind, should be completely ignored in favor of the majority of the players participating in organized raids.

It's fine to say "mythic isn't meant for friends and family, join another guild" when there are guilds to join on your server. It's different when it becomes "leave the friends and family you play with outside of raids, and transfer to a server that raids mythic".

[Baconeggcheese]

My opinion? More 5 mans. Use a core villain like azshara. More questing and few more zones. 3 tiers. New clas . Not so much

Imo they need to bring proper progression back without making it feel tedious or cumbersome. They've made it so you can piss through everything at such a speed that it all loses its value and becomes monotonous.

You could have doubled the number of dungeons in wod for instance, and they'd still have become irrelevant within a week or two with the current model.

[anaxie]

Imo they need to bring proper progression back without making it feel tedious or cumbersome. They've made it so you can piss through everything at such a speed that it all loses its value and becomes monotonous.

You could have doubled the number of dungeons in wod for instance, and they'd still have become irrelevant within a week or two with the current model.

This and remove the separate loot locks. U can rekill stuff sure. But only ONE loot lock. I would be so thankful

[Zarc]

The Mythic 20-man was one of the reasons why I came back to the game and actually as did pretty much everybody in our otherwise retired group of people who had played together from Wrath to Cata, and many of us as part of a larger guild from vanilla to tbc before that. We felt that now we would not even be tempted to go for the hardest (and spend as much time on this game as we used to) mode since we would never have the people to do 20-man Mythic anyways, so we could just happily see all the content while being content only doing it in Heroic flex. But as it turned out most of us kind of just returned out of nostalgia, and pretty much all of our 35 or so players lost their interest within weeks of raiding and so we fell apart yet again and now the guild is a ghost town. So Mythic 20-man raiding had, if anything, a positive effect on us getting back to the game.

So my experience is that Mythic 20-man had nothing to do with sub drops. If anything, it contributed to the great sales and boost of subscribers at WoD release.

[Baconeggcheese]

This and remove the separate loot locks. U can rekill stuff sure. But only ONE loot lock. I would be so thankful

Yeah... I think this is more of a niche problem though. I dunno how much this hurts the average raider as opposed to the mythic guys who have to deal with running the raid 3+ times a week early on.

There's a question for you guys who intentionally cap out at heroic raiding, do you feel pressured to do normal for the extra gear?

[anaxie]

So pretty much my parrot zarc. You all love/lobed the game and remember it fondly but old hats get tiered after many many years.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah... I think this is more of a niche problem though. I dunno how much this hurts the average raider as opposed to the mythic guys who have to deal with running the raid 3+ times a week early on.

2 h split clear H usually normal. Optional. But heroic raiders should be doing normal ect. It's all goes downhill. I don't think its the best system. Compare TBC/wrath to now you get loot way to fast which is part of the core problem of running out of relevant things to do I believe.

[FeralSynapse]

S
If you want to raid mythic transfer to a guild that has 20 raiders to do it.

I'm tired of people who claim to be entitled to eveyrthing.

100% this. If you *really* wanted to raid mythic, you'd be raiding mythic. You'd be taking steps to ensure you were raiding mythic. 20m is perfect for the hardest raiding difficulty.

[anaxie]

100% this. If you *really* wanted to raid mythic, you'd be raiding mythic. You'd be taking steps to ensure you were raiding mythic. 20m is perfect for the hardest raiding difficulty.

Thumbs up +like

[JemiS]

Thumbs up +like

Yes, and the majority of dev time should be spent around that vanishingly small fraction of the ultra-motivated raiders, rather than the much larger fraction that previously raided 10H.

Completely a good use of time there.

[Baconeggcheese]

Compare TBC/wrath to now you get loot way to fast which is part of the core problem of running out of relevant things to do I believe.

In that regard I wish the wf / socket / tertiary pieces were as common as WF / TF was in t15 and t16. It actually did a good job of keeping interest for quite some time having something to hunt, but since it's so uncommon to see a WF or socket piece in WoD it just makes me not care to hunt after them. Yeah it feels good when the piece happens to drop since its so rare, but it doesn't inspire me to try and go back for it.

We get less tier now and its included in the bosses regular drops so there's less overall loot on tier bosses which is helping saturation a bit, I'm not sure how much I'd have them pull back on loot as opposed to making hunting for RNG loot more enticing.

I wouldn't want to go back to the drama that was 40 man raiding with what was it 3 or 4 drops per boss? That kind of ratio for instance was a nightmare, it's much easier to deal with loot drama these days thanks to the saturation.

[FeralSynapse]

Yes, and the majority of dev time should be spent around that vanishingly small fraction of the ultra-motivated raiders, rather than the much larger fraction that previously raided 10H.

Completely a good use of time there.

10man is more geared towards F&F and stops at heroic. There is no reason to make a 10m Mythic. THAT is wasted Dev resources.

[JemiS]

10man is more geared towards F&F and stops at heroic. There is no reason to make a 10m Mythic. THAT is wasted Dev resources.

Got reasons other than "because I said so"?

The group of people that spent 5+ years raiding cutting edge 10H content was larger than the current 20M mythic crowd, and would probably disagree with you.

If there was still actually a 10H comparable to previous expansions, no one would have a problem with it. But 10H raiding doesn't exist.

[endur]

This is not really true. The Average Raider raids Normal, maybe a little bit of Heroic. Mythic Players including me are the minority. While it would be nice to have the option of raiding with smaller groups again, I think that a fixed size of 20 players did help with balancing. Archimonde being the hardest Mythic Boss out there should be evidence enough.

Arthas Heroic 25 and some of the vanilla bosses were harder than Archimonde.

[Gradywhite]

Arthas Heroic 25 and some of the vanilla bosses were harder than Archimonde.

No encounter in Vanilla was particularly difficult--mechanically. The difficulty came in finding 40 attuned players with the correct amount of [resistance] gear and consumables in a world where 40-man raids dropped less loot than current 20m raids.

[JemiS]

No encounter in Vanilla was particularly difficult--mechanically. The difficulty came in finding 40 attuned players with the correct amount of [resistance] gear and consumables in a world where 40-man raids dropped less loot than current 20m raids.

But according to many posters in this thread, much of the inherent difficulty in 25 m (or 20m) vs 10 m raiding is from the organizational difficulty, making 40 man raids more difficult.

[Marrilaife]

I think the biggest disservice Blizzard did with 20 man mythic and "flex" raiding being basically faceroll on 30 man (with all the combat rezzes, extra raid wide cds, extra loots for faster gearing) but hard on 10 man (recent nerfs to Kilrogg don't tell you anything?) is the shortage of tanks for anything, every time there's something like mythic dungeon event the usual "omg we can't find any tank" complains re-emerge.

10 man raiding kept healthy proportion of tanks / healers against dps, nowadays top guilds only recruit dps and occassional healer, there are very few tank spots, there's very little reason to play one, invest in it and try to gear it up because you'll hit a brick wall that all the top guilds have tank spots closed, maybe except for some flavour of the month class offtank, usually dps with tank offspec that can be swapped to make x boss easier.

Nowadays the 1-1-3 group model for dungeons is completely not matching the raid role proportion for 20/30 man groups. That also influences casual play making dungeons queue too long for many to bother and well, they killed off scenarios so a lot of casual players are bored with world of queuecraft, same problem with Ashran or BGs, maybe different reasons (as it's pvp and follows different dynamics), but the queues being longer than the time you're gonna spend in as a casual are a major put off for people with limited time to log. At least they woke up with the mercenary mode, let's see how it pans out but BG queues / win ratios were really broken for a casual pvper.

[anaxie]

Yes, and the majority of dev time should be spent around that vanishingly small fraction of the ultra-motivated raiders, rather than the much larger fraction that previously raided 10H.

Completely a good use of time there.

No it should be used by merging the player base that does it. And they did. Kudos

[JemiS]

No it should be used by merging the player base that does it. And they did. Kudos

Not according to the numbers.

The majority of 10H players quit.