Player retention, a discussion

[Deleted]

I personally think this is a major problem because it fragments the game world into pieces that are really not a lot of fun to be in (too easy). That's not saying the game is too easy (it is but that's not the point I'm trying to make). It's their continual destruction of their game world in an effort to keep people in the latest and greatest that I find both mystifying and very disappointing. It's a beautiful place and big enough that you can imagine exploring it forever but there's no reason to and basically they waste all of it. Ugh. It pisses me off just to even write about it.

Hopefully Blizzard will make some kind of inovating gameplay to the world content next expansion after Legion.

Until then i think Legion is going to be my favorite PvP expansion ever.
I will have to farm arena rating to get decent gear. For the first time Blizzard is giving motivation to get rating.
Farm PvP talents, Artifact Weapon and Legendaries to be competetive in World PvP.
And it will be the first time we have some kind of customization with the new PvP/PvE talents combo.
On paper seems like Blizzard is going to keep me subscribed for a decent period of time.

For PvE i'm only excited about Class Hall quests and legendary farming because im hoping it will repopulate the world.
But i have low hopes because Blizz said "WoD outworld will be like Timeless Isle 2.0" kappa not even close

[A Chozo]

If they want new players, they better get rid of the competition.

In the past, WoW was the big casual mmorpg to go.

Nowadays, others have risen. And they are finally on-par with what Blizz provides (and yes I'm aware of the quality of the mmos, but they still are options). WoW can't have more subscriptions because the mmo-rpg players are split between what better fits their needs.

[Kazgrel]

I think they should try something new.
Timeless Isle was such a good inovation to the genre if it could be polished a bit more.

Let's just see how good the scaling of Heroic Dungeons, Class Hall quests and farm for world legendaries will be.

I'm hoping Class Hall quests and legendary farming will bring everyone to the world. Not sure if it will be true.
Massice world events are also fun for a MMO. Something that i think is lacking in WoW.

The PvP in Legion seems amazing. There is motivation to get higher arena rating for the first time in years.
You can only get armor with rating so if you enjoy world pvp and duels you will have to farm Legendaries and rating.
Seems good on paper for player retention, at least for PvP.

WoD/Draenor is basically Timeless Continent, with Tanaan being TI 2.0. Yet we see how well it's generally been received...

[Deleted]

WoD/Draenor is basically Timeless Continent, with Tanaan being TI 2.0. Yet we see how well it's generally been received...

Draenor only have toys and awful garbage blue gear and Tanaan is a a joke of a version of Timeless Isle.

If you were on a PvP server Timeless Isle was an adventure in itself just avoid the both factions farming bloody coins.
What they need to do is recreate the spirit of TI and bring it even further with PvE events and elites to make it look like an open world raid.
But that's just my idea of fun...no idea if the community would like that.

[Malkiah]

WoD/Draenor is basically Timeless Continent, with Tanaan being TI 2.0. Yet we see how well it's generally been received...

IMO this is due to mudflation, which WoW has a very serious problem with that causes a lot of other domino effect issues.

i think that TI was generally better received than Tanaan because in context of the content available, it went like this: previous LFR tier > TI > current LFR tier > normal
so, TI had a purpose and function in that it was a good catch up mechanism or hole-filler, but there was easily accessible content for even casuals to go do after or during TI.
now, gear is all muddled, since it goes current LFR tier > mythic dungeons > tanaan/normal raiding.
it makes tanaan the non-raider end zone, and in what is fundamentally a carrot-on-a-stick game, having a gearing end zone you can power grind to brute force both slots and RNG means the content vanishes very quickly.

i don't think WoW suffers from a lack of content issue so much as it suffers from a lack-of-anything-do-in-the-content issue, because WoW's end-game is as atrociously under developed as it hilariously barren.
what they need to do is A. come up with something to do post-100 that gives small and incremental power increases that is slow to grind out, and B. tone down the ridiculous gear power jumps from one tier of content to the next so that everything that exists in the game isn't immediately made obsolete by the new content.

[Mytheros]

First I pretty much roll my eyes when I read a random player (which is to say someone like me or you -- the person that plays the game but doesn't work for Blizzard) write "how do we save WoW?"....... I don't know about you but I don't do shit to save WoW...its not my business venture / product....I'm just a customer....its blizzard's employees that should worry "how do we save wow". I've been told (because I've posted this sentiment before) "Well nice to know you care so much about the game.." so I'll head that comment off at the pass right now --- Hey...I'm just honest and realistic. Do I enjoy the game over all -- of course I do or else I would never check in here or you know....log in and play the game from time to time. Do I enjoy the game as much as I used to -- no. Would I miss the game at all or be at all upset if Blizzard "closed down WoW"....to a degree yes of course don't be stupid. I think its a normal human thing to have some measure of attachment to something you've invested yourself in for over a decade (not to mention spent a four figure sum of money on doing so in that time). But even with that said , such is life my friends. There's a beginning and an end to all things....Likewise things age.....and human nature is over time we tire of the same old stuff. I mean there's movies I think are awesome but if I would watch them literally every day for 11 years I'd probably not care to see the movie anymore.

But in general my opinion is simply that options are a good thing. I think its a positive when there's different ways for players to gear and advance their characters. I think where Blizzard would need to polish that design philosophy is making sure that the best gear (or the fastest ways to progress) comes from the hardest path a player takes to advance their gear and characters. I like an mmo that is well rounded.....it shouldn't be all about raiding....or PVP or questing.... but rather it should feel like raiding , pvp and questing are the choices we have to advance our characters as we see fit.

For too long now I think the culture of playing this game has been either you raid -- or you are nobody. That's just stupid. There should be alternate content that doesn't involve raiding where I can still feel accomplish and still get some bad ass looking gear....BUT my bad ass looking gear shouldn't be better than the gear you can get for doing the hardest raids.

Or there's another approach -- the highest quality gear can be earned by either raiding, pvp or alternate content (like massively long challenge quests lines -- personally I love that stuff)....BUT the catch is -- the raider gets this gear a *LOT* faster than the pvper....who in turn gets it faster than solo alternate content.

But anyway... for me the key to keep my interest is many things but especially options...I like options...when I log into an MMO I like the feeling of having to choose what I want to do that night in game....because there's so much I could do....I don't like my only real option (because its the only real way to feel accomplishment for your character) is "ok so I can raid.....or um....raid...yay me."

[Daffan]

I think they should try something new.
Timeless Isle was such a good inovation to the genre if it could be polished a bit more.

Timeless isle was garbage. People weren't there because they liked it, but because they needed it.

Same with Garrisons for Blizzard, they see massive usage of Garrisons but that's because it's so powerful you are dumb not to grind it.

[Echo of Soul]

Well they have it half right. The key word being "faster", but not faster expansions. We need faster content patches since designing a content patch is a lot quicker than designing a whole expansion. It's either that or slow down the consumption rate of the content patches so we spend more time before completing them.

[Archon14]

I'd say not having huge breaks between content, make new contect innovative instead of copy/paste from other games and a complete graphics overhaul with a better UI would totally restore a part of the lost population and make wow last longer. And they can do this, they just don't think it's worth it.

[khazmodan]

In-game communities are important. Communities based on external web sites are fine but that doesn't mean that there's no reason to pay any attention to it for those that would prefer to find ways to socialize in the game itself.

totally agree, Blizzard just needs to recognize that each server is a community as well as the guilds, and making things like lfg,lfr and garrisons have only made people feel more and more disconnected from that community. WoW is not a good enough single player game for people to pay 60 bucks an exp and 15 bucks a month to play.

[Kokolums]

Perhaps the best essence of an in-game community is leveling with global chat switched on in a system with no automated matchmaking service.

I have a scrolling fun chat on the side I can read and participate in, at the same time I can read for groups I might want to join. While that is going on, I am playing a toon and smashing mobs in the face. There it is: a community to enjoy while I blast things with spells and swords at the same time. That's an MMORPG.

Some people argue guild chat fills the need, but they forget there are a couple extra steps of 1. find a guild to join and 2. finding a guild with active talking. So you don't get that community feel. And then some people say "well what if those players don't want it?" which is incorrect because really what you should be realizing is lots of people want it but don't know they want it.

[Dadwen]

Personally I've lost more friends that played by Blizzard messing around with the classes, after playing them for years people get attached to them and when the Dev's mess with them to the point they don't recognize the classes\Spec's they used to play they kinda get put off or tired of relearning them. (I have no plans on getting Legion after hearing about the hunter changes, I've played SV for over 8 years and really don't feel like switching to a different play style or class.)

[Deleted]

they desreve more

[Deleted]

WoW as an original product was culled in '09-'10; the FrankenWoW that emerged gradually over the past three expansions is a largely different product, and if that, separately, dies off far more quickly than the original product would've, it's because of abandoning design principles. Lack of integrity is the top-down issue.

So in short;

1. Lack of design integrity
2. Cash-cowing & intentionally weening players off of regular content iterations.

[MoanaLisa]

totally agree, Blizzard just needs to recognize that each server is a community as well as the guilds, and making things like lfg,lfr and garrisons have only made people feel more and more disconnected from that community. WoW is not a good enough single player game for people to pay 60 bucks an exp and 15 bucks a month to play.

I had this idea yesterday about this. For a while now I've been proposing that membership in multiple guilds would be one way to open up more paths for socializing. People keep discussing the importance of realm communities and while it's possible that this history and importance of realm communities is a bit overstated and perhaps lost to history anyway I think there is something practical and specific that could be done.

It involves creating a super-guild structure that would be realm linked and be basically a realm community or a set of realm communities. People would be free to join any communities on their realm that represent their interests--pickup groups, dungeons, PVP, whatever really--and could do so without it compromsing their guild membership(s). They have something like this in D3 and it works relatively well. The point is that if there is a real desire on the part of a lot of players to join with others on their realm, they need some sort of social structure that is player/council-controlled to do so. That would mean minimal applications to join as these are supposed to be inclusive of all who have an interest and a way to 1) keep bots out and 2) people who really behave badly could be subject to being dismissed from the community.

It's not perfect but is perhaps an improvement on what we have now and would not necessarily affect current raiding guilds and their raid teams although they should and probably would be willing to be with their community as well. But it can't be Blizzard running it. They may have to provide the framework for it but after that it's really up to players to police membership and to see that the community environment is one that would attract a lot of players.

Good RP realms have a lot of this anyway of their own making. I've been on an RP realm for years that has maintained its own global chat channels for OOC (out-of-character) chat anyway. So it can be done. But I don't believe that you would want Blizzard doing much more than enabling it to happen and then stepping out of the way, much like they do with guilds.

[dextersmith]

But what can be done to stave off death?

Replace the people who make infuriating design and business decisions, as well as devs who mock players on social media.

[Kokolums]

I had this idea yesterday about this. For a while now I've been proposing that membership in multiple guilds would be one way to open up more paths for socializing. People keep discussing the importance of realm communities and while it's possible that this history and importance of realm communities is a bit overstated and perhaps lost to history anyway I think there is something practical and specific that could be done.

I think that would be a very bad idea if the goal is to make things more social. Guilds require extra steps to take. You have to find one, then you have to find one that will accept you, then you have to find one that is active with a lot of talking. Guilds are actually pretty fragmenting in a way. A straight up channel that anyone can join is a social thing. Guild chat...not so much.

It seems like you are reinventing custom chat channels anyway.

If anything, I was toying with the idea of eliminating guilds completely. I think a case can be made guilds are actually rather antisocial. Not sure how that would be implemented tho, so I just have it on the drawing board in the back of my head.

Whatever the solution, I do believe it needs to be fixed in Legion. I think if the playerbase shrinks any further, the notion of Blizzard beginning to lay off / reassign WoW coders and artists becomes a real threat. This has to be the TOP priority or I think its all over soon.

[MoanaLisa]

I think that would be a very bad idea if the goal is to make things more social. Guilds require extra steps to take. You have to find one, then you have to find one that will accept you, then you have to find one that is active with a lot of talking. Guilds are actually pretty fragmenting in a way. A straight up channel that anyone can join is a social thing. Guild chat...not so much.

Can't tell if you are responding to the entire post which is really about doing something like D3 communities or to the idea of multiple guilds. In the case of multiple guilds I would expect that being able to be a member of a social guild would not be such a big deal if you could keep things tight with your raiding guild. The idea of something larger--a community--is really nothing more than an extension of that. Being limited to joining up with precisely one social group in this day and age is antiquated. Blizzard has so many ways of dividing players into silos; it's about time they start to think about ways to let players make their own arrangements.

The game is likely to retain players longer if they can move around socially and not have to form what amounts to a serial monogamous relationship with every group of players they feel simpatico with.

[Klingers]

They need a second team working on patches. It's that simple. Nobody wants a new continent and a total gear reset every year. It's not what we asked for.

Players just want something new dropped into the game every three months or so. A story patch. A dungeon or a couple of dungeons. Maybe once every 6-7 months a new raid. A battleground. Something like the Isle of Giants. Just... Something.

MoP had its post-launch drop but it was stable and even ticked up for a quarter when there. Was. Stuff. To. Do.

Sure we can go and make busywork for ourselves grinding out-dated content, but that's what it is. Out-dated. Where's the meat, the new stuff, the evolving world, the sense that our sub fees are being poured back into the game world we're actively playing in right now? That's why people leave.

If the focus is on current endgame and that's where they push everyone with sped-up leveling and boosts and current-tier gear catchup mechanics, there has to be more than Hellfire and the Shipyard. It's not good enough.

[Gheld]

Here's the thing.... Online gaming as we know it today wasn't really possible until Windows 95 came about along with the under-appreciated advancement of "plug-and-play" drivers. It took a couple of years for developers to really be able to take advantage of it and of course it was a couple years after that yet that pc gaming because something a little more mainstream.

So online gaming was still a shiny and new thing when WoW came out.

Now every game worth it's salt has an online component. Online is just some expected part of a game existing now. There's a few offerings here and there that succeed without it but for the most part developers won't risk leaving it out.

So in MMORPG MMO has become a redundant expectation. Making WoW a better MMO isn't going to save it. Making WoW a better game is what it needs.

And like Klingers is talking about now that it's boiled down to the die-hards everybody is caught up. If somebody bought WoW in 2009 they would spend a lot of time catching up so there would always be something new for them. But we run out of things to do. And in most games that's not a problem. But in WoW you have to pay a subscription fee to play. So if you run out of things to do, boom. Unsubscribe.

In a good game you need stuff to do. Not side content, not 4+ different game-modes for the same content offering. Players need new things to work on that are relevant to either character progression or story progression (and preferably both). Obviously it takes time to develop content but they pretty much need to always have something in the pipe. Feasible? probably not. If you put the carrot in front of us on too long a stick we'll just look for it in a different game.