Alpha Elemental

[scorchmed]

Hello everyone! Scorch is here!
And here I go with another topic about elemental shaman in Legion Alpha™
As before I will use both text and images for better understanding. Let's go!

1st of all I want to note that our old mastery is working awesome. We've come back to ol' bursty cannon-style, when "if nobody touches you - you're oneshotting people".
And 2nd - I like the new system with maelstrom and zero-cd shocks, same as I like our artifact (both traits and visual).

But of course I've created this topic not to note how excited I am (but I am actually really excited about Legion so much).

Let's discuss few problems we got in current build:

1) Lightning bolt hits harder then Lava Burst. Well, actually in tooltips it hit's almost for the same amount, but overall with all those buffs we got (and we got a LOT of buffs to LB :
I. Passive proc from Fist of Ra-Den called "supercharged" = 3 next LB will cause 2 additional 75% LB
II. Usable skill from Fist of Ra-Den = Next 3 LB will hit 200% harder
III. Lightning rod - increasing LB damage on current target - 20% more for 20 sec

And all of this while the only way to increase LvB damage is the ol' Flame shock+LvB combo.
I know, numbers aren't final but at current gear and level 106 when I have all of buffs on both LB and LvB - LvB crits around 100k, while LB crits around 800k(!!!) with all abilities used and for 110-120k while unbuffed.
I did not mention "Elemental Empowerment" trait because anyways it will increase both nature and fire damage.

So, I don't mean blizzguys should buff LvB to the sky or nerf LB to the ground - as for me - our new talents and traits should affect both of our abilities like "Totemic Fury" talent does.



I will continue, when I will get free time.

Edit #1:

After reading few comments I can agree that maybe it was intended by blizz to focus on LB as our higher priority spell and LvB just as an instant filler and maelstrom builder, but this idea is looking silly and Devs in twitter already said that it's not how it should work:


But! As I said before - it doesn't really matters what buttons we will actually press if our rotation still cool and easy to learn. If numbers will be fine and won't need any 30% buffs like we needed at the WoD launch - we're fine. Despite this fact as I said before - I don't really like this new idea when hitting 1 button (LB) is more valuable then hitting normal rotation.

Here's another picture with my thoughts about damaging spells mechanics:


*Numbers maybe not accurate but still 80 is too much, do you agree?
**Of course it's lesser with all traits like Static overload and Electric discharge but still kinda too much compared to how it should be, because usually raid leader wants adds to be oneshotted and I doubt we will get too much fights like Iron Maidens.

[Blithe]

All of these mechanics are cool, but Lava Burst procs should always be top priority as Elemental. I don't like the idea of having to hold off on using my Lava Burst's just to cast Lightning Bolt.

[chandy]

I just don't understand why people think 'the fist of Raden' needs to buff lavaburst as much as lightning bolt :/ I mean if it is a flavor thing, I guess I understand but there is currently a pvp talent that reintroduces burst lava burst playstyle if you want to experience that. I guess that is not enough?

Stormkeeper thematically needs to make lightning bolt a powerhouse. That is what it is currently doing. Comparing lightning bolt numbers with lava burst when you line up everything seems pointless to me.

[Nyoken]

All of these mechanics are cool, but Lava Burst procs should always be top priority as Elemental. I don't like the idea of having to hold off on using my Lava Burst's just to cast Lightning Bolt.

This..... yea. Feels so weird, lightning bolt has never been a hard hitting spell.

[Deavane]

It's just something to get use to. I actually really enjoy that lighting bolt is pretty strong now.

[Chaosbubba]

I don't know if you have been watching alpha or play it or whatever, but you seem to be trying to base our damage AGAIN around lava burst being our hardest hitting spell. From what i have seen of ALPHA, Lightning bolt is now our hardest hitting spell and LvB is now our filler. All you are trying to change is from your perspective based on aow Elemental shamans are on live. They are completely changing elemental shamans

*Edit* i see you play alpha, didn't read the whole thing.

[marjolaine]

I really wish crit increased the damage of lava burst in a similar vain as chaos bolt and warlocks. I suppose with lightning bolt doing so much of the damage (saw some quick logs from Ursoc testing) that would put a little more emphasis on critical strike.

Time will tell when they do a number pass, till then maybe feed it back about concerns about lava burst.

[Moistie]

I don't know if you have been watching alpha or play it or whatever, but you seem to be trying to base our damage AGAIN around lava burst being our hardest hitting spell. From what i have seen of ALPHA, Lightning bolt is now our hardest hitting spell and LvB is now our filler. All you are trying to change is from your perspective based on aow Elemental shamans are on live. They are completely changing elemental shamans

*Edit* i see you play alpha, didn't read the whole thing.

Why would LvB be filler and LB be our hardest hitting ability? LvB has a cooldown.

[Terminal Lance]

I just wish they would go around to finally revamping Thunderstorm. I feel it's not nearly as useful (nor iconic) as everyone else' Spec ability.
That way, it can also shift some of the thousands (exaggerating) of passives that Lightning Bolt will get with The Fist.

[binkenstein]

Lightning Bolt is only the "hardest hitting spell" if you look at it with the Stormkeeper buff active (200% damage bonus), and if you combine multiple effects like Lightning Rod, Power of the Maelstrom and Elemental Focus it can get up to around 1500% SP (estimated, that is).

Outside of the 3 SK uses, Lava Burst beats Lightning Bolt hands down.

[Deleted]

Lava Burst averaged the exact same dmg on my skada when DPSing a dummy, even when using the artifact use. Was around 26k dmg AVG for both spells. So casting a Lava Burst hits more than Lightning Bolt unless you proc Power of the Maelstrom or have artifact use up. It also awards more maelstrom (15 instead of 10). That being said I feel like Lava Burst should hit significantly more than it currently does, increase the CD if you have to, Lava Burst should hit a lot

[Nyel]

Outside of the 3 SK uses, Lava Burst beats Lightning Bolt hands down.

Uhm, no? At least you haven't got that "feeling" at all.

Lava Burst once was great than they made it mediocre by decreasing it's damage and now it's just another boring spell in our rotation. Lava Burst and Lava Surge are just boring now. Volcanic Inferno makes it better, but it's still very underwhelming. It should deal at least 20-30% more damage than Lightning Bolt, if not more. Talents like Path of Flame (10) or Elemental Fusion (75) are awful in comparison due to Lava Bursts horrible damage coefficient.

[Rezhka]

Do you consider all the talents and maxed out artifact traits that improve LvB? Because I think they would make a different there. At least it would bring the gap closer if not much.

[scorchmed]

Yea I also took path of flame (+10% LvB) and tested LB vs LvB on dummy. Results: LB crits (wo any buffs) are hitting harder, but LB has no 100% crit chance, Lvb has 100% crit chance and also generates 15 m. instead of 10. Maybe it's intended but I feel like LvB has to hit harder like it was once upon a time. (And don't forget about all the buffs to LB while LvB has almost zero.)

[marjolaine]

Lava burst is great for forcing elemental focus i guess :P

[Deleted]

The problem i see with the current implementation of elemental is simply the following: there is too much focus in improving the efficiency of Builders instead of spenders: most of our talents and artifact traits improve damage on lightning bolt and lava burst, while the damage of earthshock (as our main spender) is not modifed at all.

Usually, a builder/spender rotation naturally lends itself to a playstyle with heavy focus on improving the frequency with which we use our spenders. These spenders should also be the main focus of the rotation, having passives and spell interactions further increase the DPET of our spenders.

Blizzard however wants to put a twist in this classic builder/spender playstyle by providing a lot of passives/traits that increase the efficiency of builders, making them do "some damage" as well. The problem that you get with this is that you are no longer really looking forward to using your spender, but focus completely on using your builder with all the temporary buffs you get. Using the spender is no longer a high-point in the rotation, but rather some necessary evil needed to not waste resources.

Blizzard is doing the same to Moonkins as well, and frankly i do not like it a bit.

[VTerpsichore]

All of these mechanics are cool, but Lava Burst procs should always be top priority as Elemental. I don't like the idea of having to hold off on using my Lava Burst's just to cast Lightning Bolt.

LvB was added long ago as a hard hitting spell to use now and again, not spam. LB was always the spam spell.

[scorchmed]

the problem that you get with this is that you are no longer really looking forward to using your spender, but focus completely on using your builder with all the temporary buffs you get

thank you!

[Rezhka]

Yea I also took path of flame (+10% LvB) and tested LB vs LvB on dummy. Results: LB crits (wo any buffs) are hitting harder, but LB has no 100% crit chance, Lvb has 100% crit chance and also generates 15 m. instead of 10. Maybe it's intended but I feel like LvB has to hit harder like it was once upon a time. (And don't forget about all the buffs to LB while LvB has almost zero.)

I don't think you can just compare it from the single damage alone. You have to put another aspects in the account. Now let's compare both perks on both spells.

Lava Burst perks:
+ Always crit with Flame Shock, means Elemental Fury always up and alway triggering Ele Focus as well
+ Path of Flame (10% more damage)
+ Lava Surge (supported with Elemental Fusion)
+ Echo of the Elements (make Lava Surge proc more manageable, means more LvB as well)
+ Lava Surge instant cast LvB = more mobility (while LB not)
+ LvB generate 15 maels (just like you mentioned)
+ Lava Imbued (artifact trait, 10% extra LvB dmg on 3 points; 20% on 6 points if you focus on this)
+ Molten Blast (artifact trait, 10% extra crit LvB dmg on 3 points; 20% on 6 points)
+ Volcanic Inferno (artifact trait, [5+250% SP] per tick dot for 6 secs). While maybe doesn't do as much dmg, but still it's a passive and bonus damage count. Only proc by LvB.
+ Elementalist (artifact trait, reduce FET cd per cast by 3 secs on 3 points; 6 secs on 6 points). Maybe the least perks of all, but still a purpose to cast LvB over LB for those who build for Ele summoner.

LB perks:
+ Supercharged (artifact passive, cause next 3 LB to overload two additional times)
+ Storm Keeper. Artifact mini cd (1.5 mins cd, 1.5 secs cast). Cause next 3 LB (or CL) deal 200% additional damage.
+ Lightning Rod. Mini cd talent (1 min cd). Cause nature damage to deal extra 20% dmg to the target for 20 secs.
+ LB generate 10 maels.
+ Call the Thunder (artifact trait, 10% extra LB dmg on 3 points; 20% on 6 points)
+ Shamanism

Shared perks:
+ Elemental Focus
+ Elemental Overload (mastery)
+ Totemic Fury (if talented)
+ Elemental Empowerment (artifact traits)
+ Master of the Elements (artifact traits)

From the lists above. You can see that overall, LvB has much more perks than LB. That makes me believe, on the real boss fight situation (let it be mobile fight or turret fight) even with bursty LB, LvB will still be our top dps. Because LvB has much more uptime (thanks to Lava Surge), despite it wasn't used to be a filler. Hard hitting LB is applied only on stacked buff, and it's up every 1.5 mins or so. While LvB has constant perks on it.

Tbh I couldn't careless whatever filler we will have later. LvB and LB stand on pretty much the same position as builder. I'd rather have Lava Surge proc any day, than having a bursty LvB (like it glorious day on WoTLK) but no cd reset and no instant cast. I'd play Destro lock instead if I want that so much Chaos Bolt-ish skill.

TL;DR LvB has much more perks than LB. LvB will still end up on the top our damage meter.

[binkenstein]

In case you guys missed it, I'm working on a spreadsheet for Legion: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Go on to the TC Calc tab and have a look at the Maelstrom Gen section starting with E12. DPET goes LB: 47.5k, LB SK: 142.5k, LvB 122k, LvB 162.7k, but this is assuming lots of artifact effects, rolling a lot of buffs into the end number, and doesn't yet include Power of the Maelstrom as I don't have RPPM details for it yet. In binary terms "omg ur rite!!!11!!oneoneeleventyone" but when looking at actual numbers it's not that much of a big deal and things are still being iterated on.