[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Dancaris]

Rafe has already come out saying he's not sticking with how souls are in the book.

As long as Rand if Dragon Reborn - its ok. Egwein can be Asha`man (and that would be a better story about her), Or Mat can have attractions to man (not as I care about new actor).

[rhorle]

"The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate.

Ugh. I get his reasoning but that is entirely dumb since the entire reason why Moiraine was out hunting the dragon was because she believed it while others doubted if it was true.

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I mean, isn't it more or less literal fact that the Wheel reincarnates people all the time?

Yes. It is known that the wheel of time binds certain people to it but no one really knows if everyone is reborn. There is a scene from the books where the Forsaken, people who were alive during the "golden age" and battled the dragon question if it will be the dragon or just the powers reborn.

"How do you know?" – Graendal asked, smiling as if it were a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

[Xath]

Regarding the women could be the dragon, Rafe had an ama on reddit:

Question:

"Hi Rafe as I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon.

Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor."

Answer:

"The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate.

I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that).

It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago"


https://www.reddit.com/r/television/...tive_producer/

She doesn't, she believes the foretelling that she watched gitra have and then die screaming feet from her. I thought he claimed to love the book series yet he doesn't seem to know anything about New Spring. Weird that.

[Rennadrel]

Regarding the women could be the dragon, Rafe had an ama on reddit:

Question:

"Hi Rafe as I am sure you have seen a lot of fans of the books have had concerns about some changes, as I am sure you would have expected. However, a main one seems to be that a woman can be the dragon.

Why was this change made if the Dragon is going to be the same anyway as it changes a lot in the world Jordan created e.g. the dragon if a woman can be trained by other woman in the tower etc, or touch Callandor."

Answer:

"The change we made was not just with the fact that a woman could be the Dragon, the core change we made was that people are NOT 100% convinced that these 3000 year old prophecies are 100% accurate.

I think it feels a little bit more true to the world, and you see the characters questioning the prophecies of the Dragon and the details of it much more in the show than in the books (although there are some scenes in the books that show this as well, we've just expanded on that).

It seems quite trusting for the Aes Sedai, who trust no one, and especially Moiraine, who trusts less than no one, to believe with 100% certainty ANYTHING that was written thousands of years ago"


https://www.reddit.com/r/television/...tive_producer/

I think one of the things that is worth remembering is that even with all the prophecies, the world changed a lot as a result of the War of Power, especially with Lews Therin and his companions sealing the Bore led to so much destruction and the madness of men who could wield saidin. It's sensible for people to believe that The Dragon Reborn could be a woman, but it's not really projected that way in the writing of the books, especially knowing that the Wheel can reincarnate anyone that hasn't been killed by balefire and as far as we know, the Wheel does not reincarnate men as women or women as men and only TDO reincarnated one man using a host body of a woman, obviously as a disguise.

Also, the scene in New Spring when Rand arrives into the world, makes it very clear that the Dragon Reborn is a male. Not to mention the Aiel prophecies call him He Who Comes with the Dawn. It's a lot of semantics and nonsensical regardless.

[kendro1200]

She doesn't, she believes the foretelling that she watched gitra have and then die screaming feet from her. I thought he claimed to love the book series yet he doesn't seem to know anything about New Spring. Weird that.

There wasn't just one prophecy, fortelling or dreamings, there was several over thousands of years. The thing consistent about fortellings was that they are always accurate, that's why people pay attention to them. That is why those gifts are so highly prized. So when a gendered noun is used, you can't skirt around it. There is also the fact that everyone knows that they live in a world and culture of decline, each passing year they grow weaker and weaker from what they were. Their technology and skills don't even compare to a thousand years ago, let alone three thousand. That breeds a culture of extreme conservatism, which was rampant through the book. People trying to gather and preserve whatever currently existed, because they were confident they couldn't do better. Him saying that the Aes Sedai mistrust the old prophecies would mean their statures on how to handle ter'angreal. It would also mean things like taboos on balefire, male only warders, as well as the fear of the knowledge of anyone from the Age of Legends would not be possible.
Aes Sedai are suspicious of people, because Aes Sedai are the least trustworthy individuals. They have insane levels of ancestor worship though, because apart from Ogier, they are the only ones that truly witness the decline of the world.

This director knows nothing about the consequences of the things he's changing. He digs huge plot holes later on with the changes he's making with nothing of actual value being added. He doesn't just not know the books, or the meanings behind events, but he also doesn't know how to plan out a cohesive story. The later of which is a huge problem for anyone who's primary job is to tell a story.

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Rafe has already come out saying he's not sticking with how souls are in the book.

That is literally the stupidest idea to have. It completely destroys the moment when Rand returns to the light, and for the same reason it very much lessens Elan's motivations for turning to the shadow. How souls work and how the wheel turns is literally the point of conflict for the whole book. Throwing that out the window is going down the same path that Game of Thrones went down, deciding that the White Walkers were actually a trivial threat. If you can't work with the fundamental world setting, then you shouldn't be touching the story.

[Biomega]

The later of which is a huge problem for anyone who's primary job is to tell a story.

I suppose the question is, WHOSE story are they trying to tell. Seems to me the showrunner's story is the one that's in focus here, and it supersedes the books' story as it pleases. That means coherent, consistent world building isn't necessarily the goal - nothing says you have to care about a world making sense, or being logical, or even reasonable. Sensible, logical, and reasonable fantasy words tend to be more successful with readers, but perhaps viewers don't care as much because their involvement is (by nature of the medium) more shallow. It could well be that flashy gestures of zeitgeist awareness score more points with the most relevant demographics than meticulous world-building and internal consistency. That makes for a worse story in storytelling terms, but perhaps it also makes for a better sell in series revenue terms.

I can only speak for my own preferences, but it certainly didn't sell me - in fact after watching the first few episodes I am totally turned off the series. But me saying "no thank you" doesn't mean it'll be a failure - there's lots of stuff I find vapid and dull but that makes plenty of money and is plenty popular. As an academic who's made literature and narrative their expertise, I'd say the series has some deep, possibly irredeemable flaws; but so do many other TV series that do just fine. At the end of the day, the studio's goal isn't to make an accurate, well-rounded adaption that's actually representative of the spirit of the books - their goal is to make a series that sells well. Now, being true to the original CAN undoubtedly lead to profit, but it isn't necessarily a hard requirement. As long as they get to their bottom line, that's what matters; and clearly the showrunner thinks that deviation from the spirit of the original is a better route to that goal. Whether or not they're right, that will remain to be seen.

[Xath]

There wasn't just one prophecy, fortelling or dreamings, there was several over thousands of years. The thing consistent about fortellings was that they are always accurate, that's why people pay attention to them. That is why those gifts are so highly prized. So when a gendered noun is used, you can't skirt around it. There is also the fact that everyone knows that they live in a world and culture of decline, each passing year they grow weaker and weaker from what they were. Their technology and skills don't even compare to a thousand years ago, let alone three thousand. That breeds a culture of extreme conservatism, which was rampant through the book. People trying to gather and preserve whatever currently existed, because they were confident they couldn't do better. Him saying that the Aes Sedai mistrust the old prophecies would mean their statures on how to handle ter'angreal. It would also mean things like taboos on balefire, male only warders, as well as the fear of the knowledge of anyone from the Age of Legends would not be possible.
Aes Sedai are suspicious of people, because Aes Sedai are the least trustworthy individuals. They have insane levels of ancestor worship though, because apart from Ogier, they are the only ones that truly witness the decline of the world.

This director knows nothing about the consequences of the things he's changing. He digs huge plot holes later on with the changes he's making with nothing of actual value being added. He doesn't just not know the books, or the meanings behind events, but he also doesn't know how to plan out a cohesive story. The later of which is a huge problem for anyone who's primary job is to tell a story.

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That is literally the stupidest idea to have. It completely destroys the moment when Rand returns to the light, and for the same reason it very much lessens Elan's motivations for turning to the shadow. How souls work and how the wheel turns is literally the point of conflict for the whole book. Throwing that out the window is going down the same path that Game of Thrones went down, deciding that the White Walkers were actually a trivial threat. If you can't work with the fundamental world setting, then you shouldn't be touching the story.

I'm referencing a very specific scene where Rand is born and Gitra dies screaming about he burns like the sun. He can make his moronic claims for the rest but not for that. He's a dip who should never have been put in charge of a revival of American Dragon let alone Wheel of Time.

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That's just you being dogmatic to the books.

No that's a central tenant of the world as a whole. People are shocked and appalled when they find out that the dark one has forced the souls of men into the bodies of women. It's not because women are lesser either it's because it's completely unnatural for someone to be in a body that doesn't mesh with their soul's gender.

[Egomaniac]

No that's a central tenant of the world as a whole. People are shocked and appalled when they find out that the dark one has forced the souls of men into the bodies of women. It's not because women are lesser either it's because it's completely unnatural for someone to be in a body that doesn't mesh with their soul's gender.

Again, that's just dogma. It's "this is wrong because it's not like that in the books"

[Advo]

I'm willing to give the full season a shot, but these first three episodes felt terribly uneven. The first episode was too slow until all of a sudden it was too fast, the second episode was too fast until it was too slow and then at the end found decent footing. The third was almost painfully slow, seriously, how many long shots did we need of perrin and egwene running away from wolves/through barren fields?

[Mazza]

Again, that's just dogma. It's "this is wrong because it's not like that in the books"

I think you are missing the point that people are trying to make here. Like it or not, the world of WoT is defined in the books. Sure, the showrunner for the TV adaptation can change basically whatever they want, but at some point it will stop being a WoT show. That doesn't mean the show itself is bad, it just will not be a good adaptation of the story in the books.

In my opinion the show has already changed some things that were so crucial to the story in the books to the point that I would hesitate to even call it Wheel of Time

[Egomaniac]

I think you are missing the point that people are trying to make here. Like it or not, the world of WoT is defined in the books. Sure, the showrunner for the TV adaptation can change basically whatever they want, but at some point it will stop being a WoT show. That doesn't mean the show itself is bad, it just will not be a good adaptation of the story in the books.

In my opinion the show has already changed some things that were so crucial to the story in the books to the point that I would hesitate to even call it Wheel of Time

No, I completely understand the point they are making.

The point I'm trying to make is that changes are inevitable when it comes to making an adaptation. If people are going to lose their shit about every single one...well, they should just stop watching now.

Now, I'm not saying people have to like those changes...but there should be a better argument for why those changes are bad than "well in the book it was different". There are some changes they've made so far that I honestly don't get. But, I'm keeping an open mind about it. Maybe they'll make more sense down the road. Maybe they'll end up being completely shitty.

Morraine not being completely clear about the gender of the TDR...I just don't see that being a big deal...unless they make a major change like turning Egwene into the Dragon. That's something they would really need to justify in order for me to accept. But I really don't think that's what's happening here.

[Smallfruitbat]

Moving away from the negatives, the guys playing Valda and Bornhald absolutely nailed it for me.

[Biomega]

Again, that's just dogma. It's "this is wrong because it's not like that in the books"

Well, there's two sides to that argument. I agree that "because it's like that in the book" on its own is not the best argument; however, there's often a REASON it's like that in the book and ignoring that reason can make things problematic because it's bad writing irrespective of its book-accurate nature. For example, adding a 10th ring of power to the humans in LotR would be bad writing for an adaptation - not JUST because "it's not like that in the book" but also because there's a REASON there were 9 rings in the book and that has lots of implications for the rest of the story. This is very different from some book detail that does NOT have such implications, like e.g. if it said a character had green eyes (and that had no bearing on the story) then complaining because an actor has blue eyes in the adaptation because it's "not like that in the book" is pretty silly.

Not all such points of contention are created equal.

[paxen]

About Rafe not caring about WoT - he fought literally every other writer and producer on the show to include the Weep for Manetheren speech.

“It was an uphill battle from day one to put that in the show because it is crazy to have your lead actor sit in a horse for an entire day and for four minutes of screentime doing a monologue about a city that doesn’t exist inside of the show,” The Wheel of Time showrunner Rafe Judkins told Decider. “So, it was flagged by the other writers in the room, the studio, and the network. Every single person who encountered it throughout the process asked me to pull it. But I never pulled it.”
The Two Rivers kids singing in the Wheel of Time "Weep for Manetheren" scene.
Photo: Prime Video

Judkins explained his fervor for the scene came not only from his personal love of the moment, but the fact that when he asked fellow book fans what they remembered, “the speech about Manetheren was something that always registered with people and stuck with them.”

[Smallfruitbat]

While I have some sympathy for Rafe having to fight for stuff -and he alluded to other things he's had to argue for; he's taken on the job by choice. AND according to him, fought for the adaptation to be made in the first place. If Amazon want their 'Game of Thrones' a decent Wheel of Time adaptation was never going to fit the bill. I honestly think they would have been better looking at Joe Abercrombie's First Law to fill that void.

[Egomaniac]

Well, there's two sides to that argument. I agree that "because it's like that in the book" on its own is not the best argument; however, there's often a REASON it's like that in the book and ignoring that reason can make things problematic because it's bad writing irrespective of its book-accurate nature. For example, adding a 10th ring of power to the humans in LotR would be bad writing for an adaptation - not JUST because "it's not like that in the book" but also because there's a REASON there were 9 rings in the book and that has lots of implications for the rest of the story. This is very different from some book detail that does NOT have such implications, like e.g. if it said a character had green eyes (and that had no bearing on the story) then complaining because an actor has blue eyes in the adaptation because it's "not like that in the book" is pretty silly.

Not all such points of contention are created equal.

And what I'm saying is that this isn't a story-shattering change. It's very minor. As long as Rand ends up as TDR...what difference does it make if Morraine wasn't sure if the Dragon was going to come back as a Boy or a Girl?

Now, if they change the story so that someone else is TDR...well, that's something I would be needing a lot more of an explanation for.

You brought up LotR....and they made tons of changes for the films. Changes that, I would argue, are far more signifacant that the addition of a 10th ring for the humans would be. They cut things here, added things there, etc. Still, most people feel that it was a pretty good adaptation. At least for the first trilogy. The Hobbit is a different beast.

[Askyl]

People being hung up over adaptations not being "as they wanted it to be" must be the most boring people alive.

[Biomega]

And what I'm saying is that this isn't a story-shattering change. It's very minor. As long as Rand ends up as TDR...what difference does it make if Morraine wasn't sure if the Dragon was going to come back as a Boy or a Girl?

It undermines many of the fundamentals of the world of WoT. The Aes Sedai's supremacy for example is founded on the fact that male channelers not only go insane, but can also be identified as such. That's why the Red Ajah grows so powerful, which in turn has implications for the political evolution of the Tower down the line. If male channelers could be found in female bodies, the Aes Sedai would be at risk of constantly being undermined by channelers who could go insane in their own ranks. That radically changes the power dynamic of channelers and the authority of the Aes Sedai in ways that would have massive implications for the entire world of WoT. And even if the Dragon Reborn is, for some reason, the only male soul that can be reborn in a female body, that still makes it incredibly difficult for the Aes Sedai to exercise discretion about who gets to join them, and who they preemptively still.

If the whole "maybe Egwene could be the Dragon" thing is just a red herring and it is and always was going to be Rand, then that is, in my view, even worse - it undermines the entire purpose of including both genders in the prophecy because it's a mere token gesture by the showrunner. To suggest to a woman she COULD be equal when they know it was never actually going to happen is quite frankly insulting, let alone disgraceful to the idea of equality that this was meant to address in the first place. It's akin to telling a woman she can be the company CEO if she tries hard, when really the job has already been earmarked for a man from the start. That's way worse than merely hiring unequally.

You brought up LotR....and they made tons of changes for the films. Changes that, I would argue, are far more signifacant that the addition of a 10th ring for the humans would be. They cut things here, added things there, etc. Still, most people feel that it was a pretty good adaptation. At least for the first trilogy. The Hobbit is a different beast.

They did, and for some of the changes I object as vehemently as here. The whole Faramir thing, for example, was a disgrace that should never have been in the film. Some other changes, though, don't really change much; Frodo not being 50+ years old, for example, has little to no impact at all on the film. Don't assume that just because the judgement of an adaptation has been, on the whole, positive (though on a personal level I really do NOT like the LotR films) that means that there is universal and unequivocal acceptance of any and all changes made. That's facile and disingenuous.

[Itisamuh]

As long as Rand ends up as TDR...what difference does it make if Morraine wasn't sure if the Dragon was going to come back as a Boy or a Girl?

If you even have to ask that question, you clearly missed some of the most fundamental plot points in the story. There is literally no possible way for that to happen naturally, even the dark one twisting a male soul into a female vessel was unheard of. And perhaps more to the point, there is no reason whatsoever to even make this a question, unless to appease certain delusional progressives by destroying a core aspect of the story.

[Xath]

About Rafe not caring about WoT - he fought literally every other writer and producer on the show to include the Weep for Manetheren speech.

Which they didn't tell to the entire village for reasons. Also if he had to fight every other writer and producer then they have even less of a grounding in the series than him which is kind of sad.

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And what I'm saying is that this isn't a story-shattering change. It's very minor. As long as Rand ends up as TDR...what difference does it make if Morraine wasn't sure if the Dragon was going to come back as a Boy or a Girl?

Now, if they change the story so that someone else is TDR...well, that's something I would be needing a lot more of an explanation for.

You brought up LotR....and they made tons of changes for the films. Changes that, I would argue, are far more signifacant that the addition of a 10th ring for the humans would be. They cut things here, added things there, etc. Still, most people feel that it was a pretty good adaptation. At least for the first trilogy. The Hobbit is a different beast.

Removing the concept of gendered souls is not minor rofl