[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Triceron]

Prior to the actual episodes airing to find out how much they differ and changed core aspects of lore. I wasn't aware that time travel was a basic function of existing so as to be automatically accounted for in discussions.

You're still using the same argument as if you didn't know the lore has changed.

Again, what is the confusion here? Am I talking to Rhorle or Rhorle-before-he-knew-this-series-was-not-a-true-adapation?

Changing core parts of lore just to cast doubt for the TV show and not actually changing it brings down the quality. It adds a irelevant plots to an show already busting at the seems with things to cover. Stringing along a superficial plot shows a lack of quality when they could have used done it different to both follow the books better and not waste viewers time. At least it is better then the New Spring pilot they did years ago just so the rights to TV/film rights would not be lost.

Well, difference in opinion then. I'm the type to not cry about milk going sour when the expiry date is still months away. You, be you.

I think it is you who is confused on who the primary audience is. Wheel of Time was never about tits and dragons. Which again speaks of how poor of an adaptation it is to make it something that it is 100% not. Why not just create your own Fantasy world from scratch instead of just using the name when not even trying to draw in fans? It just further shows that the changes they are making don't make any sense at all. Lol.

I never said WoT was about Tits and Dragons, I said Game of Thrones is. That's how the series ended up being widely glorified for being, and that's the audience that built the success of the series, no matter how you look at it. It wasn't 'the book readers'.

WoT TV series' success isn't going to be built on the book readers. It's going to be built on the fanbase that the showrunners hope to capture beyond simply the book readers. In their case, they're not banking on tits and dragons. It seems they want to appeal to a much wider crowd, and that crowd is going to define whether this series will catch on or not. The book readers are really a drop in the bucket here. This series is clearly not made 'just for the book readers'.

[rhorle]

You're still using the same argument as if you didn't know the lore has changed.

Because I'm saying the same thing, that it is a poor adaptation. Why would I have to stop making that argument once I know the lore is changed? People can't make arguments once they have facts? Lmao. I've already said several times it is a good generic fantasy show just a poor adaptation. The only one confused here is yourself because you keep trying to make weird arguments just to be argumentative.

[Delekii]

I mean, nothing says it HAS to be good. But if it WANTS to be good, what they're doing right now - at least in the opinion of me and others of a like mind - is not the way to go. That's not to say we are the definitive authority - we're not (and neither is anyone else). No show will ever please 100% of people. But they need to understand WHY we're unhappy with the changes they're making, and it's not simply "it's not like it is in the books" - that implies that there's only two options, 1. follow the books exactly 2. it sucks. That's not true. All I'm saying is 3. what you're doing there isn't working for me. The fact that it's also different from the books is not unrelated, but also not the deciding factor - plenty of other changes from the book I have zero problems with.


Thank you for explaining to me something I've literally already said myself, down to the "1:1". Are you being patronizing on purpose, or did you just miss it?

Why do they need to understand it? If the show is a success, which all signs point to it being, your position is meaningless.

The reality is that the VAST majority of book fans, myself included, will still watch it without issue. Some will grump about the changes, but importantly, still watch it.

[Syegfryed]

Planning to watch this before reading the books, have to ask, how much faithful to the original source?

is like lotr levels, hobbit levels, or eragon levels?

[bledgor]

Why do they need to understand it? If the show is a success, which all signs point to it being, your position is meaningless.

The reality is that the VAST majority of book fans, myself included, will still watch it without issue. Some will grump about the changes, but importantly, still watch it.

Speak for yourself, got 1 episode end and stopped. I know another buddy that got to the Logain power nerf and he stopped too. I can make the claim that many others including myself are tired of egotistical shit stains in hollywood pretending they know better than authors with millions of books sold, who keep making shit changes time and again and ruining series.

[Egomaniac]

Why are you so obsessed with defending a tv show loosely inspired by a series you clearly don't even like?

I have said a number of times now that the TV series has problems. I just don't think all the pearl clutching over the prophecy being changed is warranted. And I really don't want to go into another round of that particular debate...so I'm gonna leave it at that. I haven't changed anyone's minds about it and no one has changed mine...best to just agree to disagree and move on.

Also, I really enjoyed the series...for the first 6-7 books. And then it turns into a painful slog to get through every single book. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Robert Jordan originally envisioned the series as 6 books. I think it would have been better if he had stuck to that. At least then he would have been able to finish the series himself.

[Shadowferal]

Planning to watch this before reading the books, have to ask, how much faithful to the original source? is like lotr levels, hobbit levels, or eragon levels?

Not faithful at all.

[kendro1200]

I have said a number of times now that the TV series has problems. I just don't think all the pearl clutching over the prophecy being changed is warranted. And I really don't want to go into another round of that particular debate...so I'm gonna leave it at that. I haven't changed anyone's minds about it and no one has changed mine...best to just agree to disagree and move on.

Also, I really enjoyed the series...for the first 6-7 books. And then it turns into a painful slog to get through every single book. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Robert Jordan originally envisioned the series as 6 books. I think it would have been better if he had stuck to that. At least then he would have been able to finish the series himself.

I know people whine about the books generally after the Fires of Heaven. I for one enjoyed books 8 through 12 more than books 3 through 6. Don't get me wrong, there is a ton of fantastic stuff in all of the books. Books 8 through 12 did amazing world building and character development. The last two books felt incredibly rushed, and that is saying something, since the last three were intended to be a single book. I liked watching the little collection of children we had at the start of the books grow up, face their flaws, overcome them and become their better selves. More than anything I enjoyed watching Rand's descent into madness, with the culmination on top of Dragon Mount. I loved getting far more depth in the Forsaken, other than the caricatures we got in the first four books.

Also, people getting upset over the prophecies being disregarded and souls being handled loosely is sort of a huge deal. These are core aspects of the world setting that are being disregarded for no reason other than the director decided that he wanted internet points. It's one thing to depart from the source material for budget reasons, or finding a way to add more to the story or plug up a plot hole. It's another to take away from a story to appease people that aren't even the target audience anyways. When adapting from one media to a next, always appease the fans first, as they are your word of mouth advertisement. They'll drive up sales if you make something they like. If you make something they hate, then you end up with a ton of poor reviews.
I remember telling friends and family about the WoT adaptation earlier this year very excitedly. When they've asked me about it now that's it's come out, I've told them, it's probably something they should skip, because it's a poor adaptation. If they have any interest in the story, they should read the books. Since I know they won't read the books, and their primary interest in the series would have been to try and understand why I like the book series, they thus have no interest in the show.
Reviews from close family and friends weigh far higher than any marketing budget.

[Katchii]

I don't see MCU getting ridiculed for being loose adaptations of the comics, do you? I mean if it's coming from comic book purists, then what's the mockery really worth here? The majority of MCU fans don't give a shit, nor should they.

Comics aren't a good example. They reinvent themselves constantly. I don't even know how many version of each of the characters there are, because they've been done and redone so many times.

WOT isn't made only for the book fans, that's what you need to consider here.

Doesn't matter who it's being made for. It's the story they said they were telling. This is not based on some different Wheel of Time story written by somebody else. This is explicitly the Wheel of Time story as written by Robert Jordan.

Whatever 'mockery' this series gets doesn't matter as much as whether or not the series holds up as entertaining content.

You're not incorrect, here.

Not sure about you, but when comic fans come out of the woodwork to cry out on how Thanos in the MCU isn't as epic as his comic book counterpart, it really holds little water. Mockery and ridicule from the purists is worth what, exactly?

Depends on what they're mocking. If they're mockery doesn't impact your own enjoyment of it, then it doesn't really mean anything.

If the series tanks, it would be on the weight of its own performance.

Yes. This will partly be based on how true they stay to the original story, IMO. But we'll have to wait and see.

This rings true for the best and worst MCU adaptations, the best and worst seasons of Game of Thrones, the best and worst of any adaptation whether it's loose adaptations like Blade Runner or close adaptations like Dune. Ridicule should be the least of anyone's worries.

Ridicule, how much there is and how it measure up against the praise for it, is a pretty decent measure for the overall product though.

You hold it sacred and have an expectation that the TV series should be beholden to the book lore. I get that. I don't diminish the sentiment, and that's not my point here. I get that people want things closer to the book. The conflict here is that these shows don't exist to provide the best quality retelling of a classic Epic; it's here to cash in on the fame and audience of the Game of Thrones casuals who are looking for another big fantasy TV series to latch on to.

I'm expecting them to tell the story they told me they were telling when they said this was based on the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan. As I've said before it doesn't have to be the EXACT story, because there will be changes from book to TV, but the major story beats should remain the same, because that's what they said they were doing.

And that's why this whole series has a 'paint by numbers' feel to it, hitting all the checkboxes that fit the modern style of TV series. That's why the story is being changed around, that's why certain characters are propped up while others are 'diminished' (I would consider it 'humbled'), and overall the plot of the series still aims to hit the same overall notes.

It doesn't have a paint by numbers feel to it, to me, yet.

When you get down to it, the series is about the Dragon Reborn saving the world against the Dark One, and whether the prophecy is extended to both genders or not, the overall plot doesn't actually change. The world around it changes, but the overall plot does not. Of course, it will mean more changes down the line to accomodate the fundamental world change, and I don't think anyone is surprised here that it will happen.

The world as it exists in the books is entirely because of The Dragon Reborn being male. Every time. Entire cultures, myths, legends, customs and politics exist the way they do because The Dragon Reborn is, and always will be, a male channeler.

If they change who The Dragon Reborn is in the TV show, they completely change the story. If it's one of the women, that woman's entire story changes completely, and so does the rest of the plot. If it's one of the other men who weren't originally The Dragon Reborn, their entire plotline changes. HUGE swathes of the story get erased, or completely redone.

It changes the story completely, to the point it's no longer The Wheel of Time as written by Robert Jordan. That's not what they said they'd be presenting.

SNIP

I have no interest in debating LotR stuff as I've already said I don't know enough to really comment. However, based on your own definition, these two are not the same level of change. The change in LotR with the elves doesn't change the overall plot. The changes they're hinting at in WoT actually would, significantly.

The world of the TV series is not built on gendered souls. There has been ZERO explanation around the nuances of rebirth and reincarnation in the TV series, so it's not actually missing anything from the books, rather that it's not yet established any of the rules for this particular adaptation. That's what has to be considered here.

As I said, everyone is free to criticize and voice concerns. I'm not even particularly disagreeing, since I personally think the changes were unnecessary as well. My point is to say that within the context of the TV series so far, nothing is actually world-breaking because the rules of the world are still being established. They aren't pre-established by anything in the books.

The story they are telling comes from those books that you keep shoving aside. This isn't a stand alone story, separate from those books. This is a TV show based on The Wheel of Time book series by Robert Jordan. It is a completely reasonable expectation that the same rules from the book also apply to the show.

That's how I think WoT should be addressed; as its own self-contained universe rather than being some extension of the book lore in Live Action form. It's not the book series.

It's a TV series entirely based on a book series with it's own established lore. It's not an extension of that book series, it is literally supposed to be a visual story telling of the story from the books, with some changes necessary due to the differences in book vs TV. That's what they said they would make. I'm not expecting a pure, scene by scene, remake of the books. But I am expecting the same basic story. The same world.

If they don't stick to the story from the books, they've failed miserably at adapting that story.

That doesn't mean it would be a failed TV show, so long as it remains entertaining, but that does mean it would be a failed adaptation.

[kendro1200]

Book readers who are not willing to distance themselves from the book lore are saying this.

The TV series isn't made for book readers who are unwilling to treat this series as an adaptation.

That's insanely reductive, dismissive, and also misses the mark.
The series is a poor faithful adaptation of the books, period.
Anyone who was going to like a faithful adaptation would be fine with changes being made in good faith.
Changes were made in this adaptation that were not done in good faith, they were done for superficial reasons and done in a way that diminished from the story.
Honestly, things like giving Perrin a wife, did not bother me, I saw that change and was like, "Oh this will very much add to his story thread from book three onwards."
Things like making Matt's father a cheat, that takes away not only from Matt, but also from Perrin later.
Things like making the Dragon agendered, just so the girls are tossed in with the boys to be part of the chase plot takes away from the boys' stories and the girls' stories. It also takes away from the world setting of why the girls have to go to Tar Valon, why they have to be trained. Aes Sedai didn't effectively kidnap every girl they came across with the spark or ability to learn, because they wanted to, they did it because their numbers were failing and it is deadly to not be guided in learning. The taint on Saidine was only part of the reason why male channelers were a problem. They also had no idea what they were doing and were just as likely to crush a child with a boulder than to save them by lifting up the boulder.
Nyneaeve's talent for healing, along with her strength was a literal fluke combination, and the Yellows were right to reject her methods initially, because everyone else with a similar background were either doing nothing, or they were actually harming their patients.

It's incredibly disingenuous to portray people as being unreasonable in their assessment of an adaptation, when the end product displayed was mediocre at best, coming from source material and financial resources that were beyond exceptional. This WoT adaptation had everything needed to make the GoT adaptation of ASoIaF look like the Warcraft movie adaptation. Instead, this WoT adaptation is worse than the Warcraft movie adaptation.

[Fuiking]

I know people whine about the books generally after the Fires of Heaven. I for one enjoyed books 8 through 12 more than books 3 through 6. Don't get me wrong, there is a ton of fantastic stuff in all of the books. Books 8 through 12 did amazing world building and character development. The last two books felt incredibly rushed, and that is saying something, since the last three were intended to be a single book. I liked watching the little collection of children we had at the start of the books grow up, face their flaws, overcome them and become their better selves. More than anything I enjoyed watching Rand's descent into madness, with the culmination on top of Dragon Mount. I loved getting far more depth in the Forsaken, other than the caricatures we got in the first four books.

Also, people getting upset over the prophecies being disregarded and souls being handled loosely is sort of a huge deal. These are core aspects of the world setting that are being disregarded for no reason other than the director decided that he wanted internet points. It's one thing to depart from the source material for budget reasons, or finding a way to add more to the story or plug up a plot hole. It's another to take away from a story to appease people that aren't even the target audience anyways. When adapting from one media to a next, always appease the fans first, as they are your word of mouth advertisement. They'll drive up sales if you make something they like. If you make something they hate, then you end up with a ton of poor reviews.
I remember telling friends and family about the WoT adaptation earlier this year very excitedly. When they've asked me about it now that's it's come out, I've told them, it's probably something they should skip, because it's a poor adaptation. If they have any interest in the story, they should read the books. Since I know they won't read the books, and their primary interest in the series would have been to try and understand why I like the book series, they thus have no interest in the show.
Reviews from close family and friends weigh far higher than any marketing budget.

the prophecies make the series basically, without them, or not properly using them, you have nothing.

[Rennadrel]

See. People give reasons but you just dismiss them as not valid. That is being dishonest and stacking any argument people have with you in your favor. The prophecies being changed is a reason for why it is bad. It isn't just one but all of them. From one that happens as the birth of the dragon reborn happens, to ones passed down from the Age of Legends. It changes to allow for a female to channel Saidin as the Dragon wouldn't be a threat if they channel Saidar like other females. Because it is untainted.

But sure I'm simply saying "it is different so it's bad". Lol.

This happens all the time. It's happening with the live action Cowboy Bebop adaptation, it happened with Ghostbusters 2016, Birds of Prey, Captain Marvel and a bunch of other high profile entertainment products in the last several years that have been mediocre. It's just constant deflection, because there's a certain group of people who want to see products that are beloved get ruined because they didn't like them in the first place. It happened with Star Wars, it happened with Star Trek, it's gonna happen to LotR and it's happened in video games too. The creatively and culturally bankrupt losers who keep trying to tank everything nerd culture related because they hate the things about it that they want changed to suit their narrow-minded sensibilities.

- - - Updated - - -

What really irks me is that Brandon Sanderson has stood by the production of this show, despite being one of the biggest fans of the books and the guy selected to finish the series off, which he did fairly well. He's really discredited himself in my eyes by giving this mediocre product that does not at all stay true to the story, the thumbs up. I assume he's getting some sort of kickbacks from Amazon for okaying this pile of fetid crap as a consultant, which just ruins his integrity.

[Shadowferal]

What really irks me is that Brandon Sanderson has stood by the production of this show, despite being one of the biggest fans of the books and the guy selected to finish the series off, which he did fairly well. He's really discredited himself in my eyes by giving this mediocre product that does not at all stay true to the story, the thumbs up. I assume he's getting some sort of kickbacks from Amazon for okaying this pile of fetid crap as a consultant, which just ruins his integrity.

He's listed as consultant and producer which justify him getting paid. And while he has little to do with the actual production, Amazon wanted him on the team for obvious reasons.

[Coniferous]

I don't understand the people saying, "Hey, they took an existing piece of IP and changed it massively because we aren't necessarily interested in appealing to the fans of that IP." Like, why use existing IP then? Either do Wheel of Time and try to be faithful to the series, or write something else if you think you can do it better.

And comparing it to Marvel is really silly - the world in Marvel is a paper thin layer on top of the modern world. Fantasy is an entire imagined world built from the ground up, the joy is in exploring that world and seeing how an author worked very hard to give it depth and cohesion. The idea that a tv show (which has to work much faster than a writer) can come in and just change a bunch of stuff but still keep that depth and cohesion is really, really far fetched.

[rhorle]

What really irks me is that Brandon Sanderson has stood by the production of this show, despite being one of the biggest fans of the books and the guy selected to finish the series off, which he did fairly well. He's really discredited himself in my eyes by giving this mediocre product that does not at all stay true to the story, the thumbs up. I assume he's getting some sort of kickbacks from Amazon for okaying this pile of fetid crap as a consultant, which just ruins his integrity.

The Showrunner has said he has listened to notes from Mr. Sanderson more then any other person involved with the show. So while the direction isn't ideal they at least seem to be giving Mr. Sanderson enough weight. I do wonder how much is Amazon and how much is Red Eagle and Sony. Since Amazon agreed to produce it after those two (and maybe others) were working on the show. Red Eagle did a 0/10 pilot almost a decade ago now just to retain the rights. So they were never that interested in "doing it right" in my opinion.

[Syegfryed]

Not faithful at all.

well, that is disappointing, but how much? like, the hobbit isn't faithful but you could watch and get the idea of the story.

[Xath]

Planning to watch this before reading the books, have to ask, how much faithful to the original source?

is like lotr levels, hobbit levels, or eragon levels?

Sub Eragon

- - - Updated - - -

The Showrunner has said he has listened to notes from Mr. Sanderson more then any other person involved with the show. So while the direction isn't ideal they at least seem to be giving Mr. Sanderson enough weight. I do wonder how much is Amazon and how much is Red Eagle and Sony. Since Amazon agreed to produce it after those two (and maybe others) were working on the show. Red Eagle did a 0/10 pilot almost a decade ago now just to retain the rights. So they were never that interested in "doing it right" in my opinion.

He's also said he has overruled him because Rafe knows best.

Also Red Eagle's pilot was more faithful to the books than this farce of an adapt. I've seen it, not great in terms of production values but overall more faithful than this joke that supposedly is costing 10 mil an episode.

[Shadowferal]

well, that is disappointing, but how much? like, the hobbit isn't faithful but you could watch and get the idea of the story.

The core structure is changed. You may wish to watch the show first. That way you may receive some entertainment value. But keep in mind, there are 14 thick books. The idiot-in-charge making the show has to throw out plenty of elements, and more importantly, toss out the time for characterization. I typically give a new show 3 episodes to win me over. My bro gave it four and gave up in disgust. And we read..and reread the books.

[Coniferous]

well, that is disappointing, but how much? like, the hobbit isn't faithful but you could watch and get the idea of the story.

Also I'm not even sure how you could keep track of all the characters in the series adaptation. The plot is horribly muddled shifting from pov to pov like mad.

[kendro1200]

well, that is disappointing, but how much? like, the hobbit isn't faithful but you could watch and get the idea of the story.

I would easily argue that if you watch Amazon's WoT, without reading the books first, you will get an almost opposite idea of what the WoT story is about. It diverges so far from the plot that it turns around and goes in the opposite direction.
I know some people have tried to spin this adaptation as, "another turning of the wheel", but honestly, I couldn't even consider it that.
The only way this could be connected to the WoT in any sense is it being one of the many alternate realities as noted by the portal stones, but as with all portal stones, those realities are doomed to dwindle and die due to their divergence from the pattern. Or one could consider this as a summary of Loial's book, as written by the Red Ajah in the third age.
The intent of the story being told is just very different from the source material. This is like getting rid of Bree in LotR and all characters related to Bree, and having Sam not leaving with the party at the Shire, but catching up with them in Rivendell later. Then all of that dead time left from cutting stuff out being filled with random filler that adds nothing to the story, but conflicts with later character development as well as cut out character development.