[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Mace]

Amazon's goal was never to adapt Wheel of Time for the sake of the breadth or depth of the world.

It was always to be their answer to 'Game of Thrones'. That they choose Wheel of Time to be that series is just a conflict of interest for most book readers who expected the show to be a much closer adaptation. The changes they did are akin to how fast food takes the classic Burger recipe and makes it easy to produce and palatable for the masses, but no where near in quality to an original good ol' fashioned gourmet burger. It's still a burger, it's just a burger of a different standard for a different type of customer.

And the comparison rings true to the consumers. Book Readers are the ones who enjoy a gourmet burger for its taste and quality. A Book Reader can also enjoy fast food burgers, or they could turn up their noses in disgust. Prime Video patrons care for the ease and convenience of fast food, caring not particularly for the quality when all they're looking for is to satisfy their hunger. And of course Prime Video patron can also become acquainted to gourmet burgers, though they wouldn't necessarily pit fast food quality against gourmet burgers in comparison cuz they know exactly what they're getting, and it's not gourmet. There's no real right or wrong that should be attached to it, since they're two different products for two different consumers that have different needs.

Again, I don't think Amazon really cares whether this goes over well with the book readers or not. What matters more to them is whether the wider, casual market is as accepting. This show is intended to draw people to Prime Video, that's about it. And if it doesn't do well and gets cancelled, then it's really all there is to it. It's not like they don't have another fantasy epic series right around the corner *cough* LOTR prequel *Cough*

they don't learn do they, there is a reason those books are insanely popular through generations.

You don't need to @Adapt them@ to the latest cultural and social trends, ..everyone can understand LotR for what it is, Jackson didn't have to @Modernise@ it - when books are great, well, the closer they are to the original the better they are, because it is the original that broke the ice and did the fantastic record breaking, and what people really really loved.

When you have a following in the millions, you shouldn't ignore the fanbase either, as they can both super catalyse your success or tank it.

People know quality when they say it, and i serves very well in your interest to ensure that's what you get if you want to be great..but you can gun for middle of the park and okay enough, like a 5 guys vs a proper gourmet or a McDs vs a 5 guys.

They should have cared to make this true when they spent all that money, , it would have been far more popular than it's turning out to be. in trying to be the next game of thrones, amongst other things.. b/c face it Triceron, this isn't the only motivation and it isn't the only messaging blatant in the work, it has failed.

It should be the Wheel of time, because that story was A grade amazing, everyone knows it that's why it's rights were so heavily sought after.

to make it the game of thrones or the ultra left man hating feminist commi platform, you have to fiddle and change so much to push your agenda and convert he story, and well the evidence here is these guys are no where near as good as they think they are.

The vast majority of the deviations from the book are either mediocre or down right awful. And it shows.

[rhorle]

And I didn't say WoT was as gratuitious as Game of Thrones. I said it was Amazon's answer to Game of Thrones; their mature Fantasy Epic series.

Off-screen sex and out of focus fuzzy topless scenes is "mature" now? It is certainly on the ratings but is no where near an answer to game of thrones. They are on completely different levels which even you acknowledged. The books also cover "off-screen" sex so what they have shown so far is not outside what the book shows. The only difference is they showed it off screen with Rand at the start. I don't think you actually read the books.

Game of Thrones did not set a bar for sex and topless to be mainstream. At least not at the levels wheel of time is using. There has always been implied sex and nudity in fantasy and sci-fi stuff when it wasn't constricted by broadcast TV ratings. Hell there are a ton of different "nudity tropes" that are used in various shows to imply things with out actually showing it. And so far the only nudity that was shown in Wheel of Time is fuzzy out of focus topless scenes.

I did find reference to it being compared to Game of Thrones by Mr. Sanderson. But the context of that was to do with the darker tone of characters and interactions. The books emphasized hope a lot more.

[Biomega]

I mean it's one of the top performers on Amazon prime and has been renewed for s2. Amazon obviously still thinks it is doing well and has legs

Nobody ever says a show is doing poorly while it's still in S1. That kind of press would only make things worse. They're in for 2 seasons at least, and that's money already spent. Even if the show performs poorly enough to not be renewed past that, they won't SAY so until S2 has run its course.

[Triceron]

They should have cared to make this true when they spent all that money, , it would have been far more popular than it's turning out to be. in trying to be the next game of thrones, amongst other things.. b/c face it Triceron, this isn't the only motivation and it isn't the only messaging blatant in the work, it has failed.

The reality is that if it wasn't this way, then it would likely never have been greenlit in the first place.

I'm not saying this is the only way it is being made. I'm putting this into perspective of what it takes to get a TV series up and running, and why this even exists right now. Consider that this IP has been talked about getting a movie/TV series for over a decade. Amazon is just the latest company that got the rights and ended up doing something out of it. And consider Rafe Judkins and his team are not the only show runners who would have had a pitch to the networks to get the project greenlit; there would have been countless numerous attempts over the years in the hands of many people.

That Rafe Judkins and his team has it, and are given full go on taking the project in the direction they wish, is a collective decision by all involved that they want a Wheel of Time series made in this way because they think it will reach the biggest audience. And yes, this just happens to involve screwing with the source material in order to achieve their goals.

In the alternative reality where we have someone who wants to keep the series closer to the TV series; they can pitch it all they want but it'll likely not get the same traction of appeal as a TV series. And frankly, in my opinion, Wheel of Time is really not great to adapt as a series without taking a LOT of time to dedicate to the world building. That means the entire first season might not even leave the Two Rivers, if you consider all the stuff that would need to be established to properly get the characters and world rules set up. Literally 4-6 episodes dedicated to showing their daily lives and hinting at something greater, with a big reveal at the end involving the Trolloc attack and the two strangers saving the day. That would be the time needed to properly pace out the story.

It's a better pacing and a hard sell. Just look at how much PJ had to fight just to get 3 movies for LOTR. It was never as obvious as we expect it to be now that there were going to be 3 full LOTR movies, with a whole bunch of extra material enough to warrant Special Editions. PJ had to fight an uphill battle to get 3 full movies to cover the entire series. I can't imagine any showrunner being able to convince any exec that they should cover a 14 book series with season 1 pacing itself to cover world building and character establishing. Execs are gonna look at the numbers and say 'hey, we have enough for 14 seasons, so just do the first book as the first season'.

Shit like this happens all the time. Creators don't get full creative freedom in most of these situations. It's usually at the demand of the network. And if they don't get a showrunner who plays ball, they find someone who does. It's a bit of a sad reality here, and likely because we don't have a GRRM who gets to appoint the writers and guide them into keeping the spirit of the books alive, or a PJ who is a big enough fan with enough creative freedom to keep things the way they are regardless of what the execs may want or think.

Amazon isn't HBO, Amazon isn't New Line Cinema. WoT exists as a reaction to the popularity of Game of Thrones, and Amazon wanting to capture that same audience after the series has been said and done.

It should be the Wheel of time, because that story was A grade amazing, everyone knows it that's why it's rights were so heavily sought after.

Sure.

Amazon's Wheel of Time is not going to be only or last adapation of the series. It just happens to be the only one right now. All expectations for the series to be properly adapted doesn't have to end with this series. But at the same time, I don't think this series needs to be what fans want of it either. It's still too early to tell what Amazon really considers out of the show they've decided to make, and how popular it actually is since we have no real metrics on how well it's actually been doing.

to make it the game of thrones or the ultra left man hating feminist commi platform, you have to fiddle and change so much to push your agenda and convert he story, and well the evidence here is these guys are no where near as good as they think they are.

The vast majority of the deviations from the book are either mediocre or down right awful. And it shows.

Of course the deviations are terrible. But they're only deviations to the book readers who know the source.

Similar things could have been said about the Last Airbender movie, where most people who have problems with the story are people who knew the show. Most people who'd never watched the cartoon series actually don't have problems with the actual story of the movie, because they have nothing to compare it to. The changes aren't 'deviations'. They're just the movie. Of course, you may think this is a bad example since the movie itself was terrible and did poorly in the box office; but just the same I can point at countless movies that were based on a source and 'deviated' greatly to the point where they are completely regarded as their own property in their own right. Total Recall, Bladerunner, Starship Troopers, Conan the Barbarian, Transformers, etc etc. Tons of movies of various quality and popularity and critical acclaim, all which deviate greatly from the source but aren't criticized for their deviations, rather applauded for bringing their unique take.

Amazon's WoT might not reach that level of quality or acclaim, but in retrospect in years past I'm sure there will be an audience who ends up defending the changes as being progressive or entertaining or whatever. As someone who grew up with the original Star Wars trilogy, I didn't think there was anyone who actually enjoyed the Prequels. But many years later, there is obviously a significant demographic of Star Wars fans who hold the prequels in high regard, having grown attached to it and like it for what it is and see it as being something different tonally from the original series. And right now everyone hates the sequels, while embracing Mandalorian and the like. But in a few years from now? I'm sure there will be a significant subset of Star Wars fans who openly express liking the sequel trilogy as well. Something we regard as 'universally mediocre' is really our subjective observation at this moment in time.

- - - Updated - - -

Game of Thrones did not set a bar for sex and topless to be mainstream. At least not at the levels wheel of time is using. There has always been implied sex and nudity in fantasy and sci-fi stuff when it wasn't constricted by broadcast TV ratings. Hell there are a ton of different "nudity tropes" that are used in various shows to imply things with out actually showing it. And so far the only nudity that was shown in Wheel of Time is fuzzy out of focus topless scenes.

I did find reference to it being compared to Game of Thrones by Mr. Sanderson. But the context of that was to do with the darker tone of characters and interactions. The books emphasized hope a lot more.

Sexuality was one example I brought up when you asked why I compared it to GoT. Had I known Sanderson gave his own comparison, I would have just as easily pointed at that. My original statement stands; Amazon is using Wheel of Time as their answer to Game of Thrones; as in it is the IP they are using as a more mature 'darker toned' fantasy series.

And as for whatever they plan for the LOTR Amazon series, we don't really know what fully entails. It's only still rumored that they're going to age-it-up, and mostly because they're hiring for an Intimacy Coordinator ('sex scene choreographer') which may indicate they want to age this up significantly. We still don't know the level of violence this series will have, and what age group they may be wanting to target here. But it does seem like it does follow in being another mature-themed fantasy series from what we're understanding of its production.

[rhorle]

Sexuality was one example I brought up when you asked why I compared it to GoT. Had I known Sanderson gave his own comparison, I would have just as easily pointed at that. My original statement stands; Amazon is using Wheel of Time as their answer to Game of Thrones; as in it is the IP they are using as a more mature 'darker toned' fantasy series.

Except you haven't proved they are. Because the books contained the same types off screen sexuality. Pillow friends are in the book. Threesome and multiple wives are in the book. The warder bond being muted when for sex is in the books. They are only displaying the same concepts in different spots. You even said it is no where near the level of Game of Thrones which also means it can't be the Amazon version or answer to Game of Thrones.

Because GoT didn't bring off-screen sex or small amounts of nudity to fantasy or other shows. The only thing you have is an author saying it has a darker tone like GoT did. Which doesn't prove that Amazon wants it to be their version of game of thrones. It only proves that Amazon is fine with a darker grittier version of an IP.

[Triceron]

Except you haven't proved they are.

Yes, because I totally need proof in order to call it Amazon's answer to Game of Thrones, even though you already pulled a reference from Sanderson making comparisons to that very show.

Honestly, what do you want? You're just arguing for the sake of arguing here.

It only proves that Amazon is fine with a darker grittier version of an IP.

That's exactly what I meant when I said it was their answer to Game of Thrones. This is their response to Game of Thrones being successful as a mature-themed Fantasy series, as opposed to something PG-13.

Honestly, not sure why you think that the words I used somehow implies that it needs to be exactly like Game of Thrones. In Not sure why you gotta be so anal here, I didn't imply anything that you're actually arguing against. That something is an answer means they responded in question, not that the answer itself has to be anywhere close to the level or quality of the original.

Like if we talked about weapons of war during WW2, the US Sherman tanks were their answer to the German Panzer IV and Panther tanks. They were SHIT in comparison to the quality of German engineering, but it's still the tank that helped win the war. In the context, it's an answer because it's done in response to the Germans having tanks, which many countries did not have at their disposal at the time.

That it's not Game of Thrones level of quality or maturity standard is beyond the point here, since I'm talking about Amazon's own response to making Wheel of Time their mature-themed fantasy series, not the show itself being close to Game of Throne's quality.

[rhorle]

Yes, because I totally need proof in order to call it Amazon's answer to Game of Thrones, even though you already pulled a reference from Sanderson making comparisons to that very show.

Is their actually proof for this? Because everything I have seen it is just people trying make that true.

Do you remember reading this? Proof is the entire basis for this current discussion lmao.

[Triceron]

Do you remember reading this? Proof is the entire basis for this current discussion lmao.

I said it it as an off-handed comment and you came at me asking for proof as though it's some factual statement.

At no point did I say it was fact.

That you're asking and I'm not answer should be clear enough that whatever you are arguing is really none of my concern, since I'm not actually addressing anything I've said as a statement of fact. I'm simply addressing your other points such as 'And the way they are doing the show indicates they are not trying to be anything like Game of Thrones., which I was responding directly to with Wheel of Time's own choice of sexual themes and choice of gore.

That you personally don't think they are trying to be anything like Game of Thrones does not make what I said any less valid, considering I was talking about Amazon wanting to aim for that audience, and you even brought a reference by Sanderson himself making a passing GoT reference. That's what I was addressing.

Whatever proof you're asking for is not worth my time addressing. Whether you believe it or not is really up to you, and if you want proof then go find it yourself. Doesn't make what I said any less valid, because whether Amazon intended to stick close to GoT or not is irrelevant to it being regarded as such. Just like it doesn't matter if The Witcher is actually the answer to Game of Thrones or not, it is already well-regarded as Netflix's answer to Game of Thrones in their choosing to make that their flagship dark-fantasy title.

Because everything I have seen it is just people trying make that true

I mean you already answered your own fucking question right here, so I didn't think I had to be any more redundant.

But if you want me to be fucking clear, then yes, I said it in regard to the way everyone else who 'tried to make that true' regarded that same statement; as an off-hand comparison of the two series which is already well-regarded by critics and audience.

Game of Thrones has been so monumental in changing the landscape that shows like the Witcher and now Wheel of Time can't be ignored as being anything other than a response to it. It's more than mere coincidence, if that's what you're implying.


And if you do want proof?

The closest I'd find is this article that cites an internal report citing GoT directly.

https://variety.com/2017/tv/news/ama...da-1202552532/

Followed by an article that cites the above, making a direct connection to Wheel of Time

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2021/11...ame-of-thrones

Around the time Bezos outlined his storytelling strategy, he also reportedly issued a mandate for Prime Video’s next big milestone: to find the next Game of Thrones. The goal was, on one level, almost redundant; isn’t “the next Game of Thrones” just another term for “the next TV megahit,” and isn’t the objective of every TV show for as many people to watch it as possible?

-edit- Here's another by GQ https://www.gq.com/story/inside-amazons-wheel-of-time

So if this is what you're looking for, here it is. If it's not, then I don't really give any fucks since I'm not holding this to any factual standard in the first place. I'm just answering you as honestly as possible regarding something that I don't think really needs be so anally scrutinized 'with proof' in the first place.

[rhorle]

I said it it as an off-handed comment and you came at me asking for proof as though it's some factual statement.

Do you have trouble reading? I simply asked you if there was proof showing that was the intent Amazon had or if it is just you, and others, making that claim. You made it enough of your concern to keep responding and now ranting about it. Lmao.

[Triceron]

Do you have trouble reading? I simply asked you if there was proof showing that was the intent Amazon had or if it is just you, and others, making that claim. You made it enough of your concern to keep responding and now ranting about it. Lmao.

Take it as you will. Whether this particular show is the one Bezos asked for or not, this series is already well-regarded by critics and audiences as being Amazon's answer to Game of Thrones. And I'm using the terminology no differently in that regard.

[Shadowferal]

"Well regarded by critics?"
No. Not so much.

[rhorle]

Take it as you will. Whether this particular show is the one Bezos asked for or not, this series is already well-regarded by critics and audiences as being Amazon's answer to Game of Thrones. And I'm using the terminology no differently in that regard.

Right. But you, and others, are wrong in that comparison. A faulty, or flawed, comparison isn't right just because a lot of people use it. You can compare things like tone and stuff but taking it to mean it is an attempt to create the same is silly. And there is nothing to back it up other then weak arguments and connections.

Just because a fantasy show comes out after GoT does not mean it is trying to be it.

[Triceron]

Just because a fantasy show comes out after GoT does not mean it is trying to be it.

Of course.

And Bezos proclaiming that he wants a GoT and this show existing mere 4 years after that is what puts this in quite a different context. If you choose to ignore that, then that's really just your opinion. It's not changing what I've already pointed out as being well-regarded out there, especially with the context in mind.

Just the same, you can't exactly prove it wrong, so it's not a case of this comparison being flawed at all. It's not flawed if it could just as easily be true. It's merely inconclusive, at this point in time. Again, all I've pointed out is Amazon wanting this to be their GoT, not whether this show actually meets that comparable level of quality or explicitness.

[rhorle]

And Bezos proclaiming that he wants a GoT and this show existing mere 4 years after that is what puts this in quite a different context.

You provided evidence that he wanted the next GoT and not that he wanted a GoT. There is a distinction. A mega hit and not a direct copy is that difference. Of course a comparison can be flawed just because it can't be proven wrong with out doubt. Because we know the ways you, and others, keep trying to compare it GoT. Remember when you tried to say the books had no sex stuff? That was a wrong comparison since the books do contain it and it hasn't been changed that much for the shows so far.

You can't call a show that comes out 4 years after another as trying to the previous show just because it is the same genre. Everyone show wants to be a massive hit. Very few are produced to be flops lol.

[Triceron]

Remember when you tried to say the books had no sex stuff?

I didn't say that, and that's part of why I'm pointing out that you're arguing against yourself.

I made one example of a sex scene that was in the show that was not in the books. That is not 'trying to say the books had no sex stuff'. And if that's what you got out of my explanation, then again, you're not actually understanding what I said and are choosing to argue against something else entirely.

You can't call anyone show that comes out 4 years after another as trying to the previous show. Everyone show wants to be a massive hit. Very few are produced to be flops lol.

I've clearly pointed out, at your behest, a bunch of other media sites which have already made that comparison apparant. I'm simply pointing out what is already obvious and out there, and blatantly telling you that I'm not considering this factual and rather regarding it in the same off-handed way that the media has already regarded this show.

I've already pointed out that this is all in context to Bezos himself asking for the next Game of Thrones, and that can be taken in more ways than just 'any generic series that becomes a mega-hit'. You've decided to interpret it just one of many ways, and in your own words if you regard one interpretation is flawed or faulty, then that's the same position you're taking with your own 'distinction'. You don't actually know if he was talking broadly about any and all shows, your interpretation is admittedly just as faulty as a comparison.

I can regard this show as Amazon's answer to Game of Thrones, as the media already has. You can choose to disagree. That's about the extent of this conversation.

[rhorle]

I didn't say that, and that's part of why I'm pointing out that you're arguing against yourself.

Just watch the show and see how little Wheel of Time it's been and how they've made certain decisions to involve more skin and sex appeal into the show for the sake of it

So "more skin and sex appeal" isn't saying the books had less? I suppose you can get me on the "no" part but you kept trying to claim the books didn't touch those subjects. You also implied the changes were to make it appeal to a more mature audience when that audience would already be hooked by what exists in the book. Because the changes are not adding more then what existed in the book. Just different locations in the story.

[Gumble]

Made an account, finally, just because of this thread. I've been watching this disussion going back and forth for 80+ pages now and as much as I am a "I wanted RJ's WoT on screen" person, I have accepted that I'm not going to get that this time around. If this show makes more people get into the books and read the real story, all the better. Maybe that will some day lead someone to make a better version of the real story.

That being said, the show has major problems to the point where I'm not sure who its being made for. I have a number of people I know watching it, a few diehard book readers who are all not happy about the changes, and about 5 people who have never read the books (my dad and FiL included) who are giving me feedback on what they like and don't. The non-readers are enjoying the story and think it feels very "LotR".... none of them compare it to Game of Thrones. The story is too "questy" and the sets and characters don't look like a "real" world like GoT. Everyone I've spoken to all agree that for the money Amazon is spending on this, the costumes look horrible and channeling looks really bad. Given Rafe said to expect Doctor Strange quality of magic, the channeling we've seen has been incredibly piss poor.

There are so many issues I have with the show, but with all the arguments back and forth in this thread I'm sure you've covered them.

The one thing I keep seeing that made me want to finally chime in on here is the "another turning of the wheel".... From the books, new spinnings of a life thread have a similar story structure, but almost never have a similar name/plot points. See Bridgette and Gaidal Cain as a perfect example. Basics of "female beautiful archer and unlikely short ugly fighter who fall in love and have adventures".

The only explanation for this show is the Portal Stones. This is a mirror world that is not the true pattern where "most" of the characters you know are here, however things aren't going exactly the same way. This explains all the changes while allowing them to use the same names of everyone and everything.

Fine. I'll buy that. This show is a "what if" world.

If Rafe wants to do that, and make a show that pales in comparison to the books.... he won't be the first TV producer to do so. Success with that strategy is relatively limited from past reference, but that is between him and Amazon.


However...... he had better include as the last line of the last show they are allowed to film, when the Rand has fallen and the world is losing hope.... a voiceover that says "I HAVE WON AGAIN, LEWS THERIN!"

[Triceron]

So "more skin and sex appeal" isn't saying the books had less? I suppose you can get me on the "no" part but you kept trying to claim the books didn't touch those subjects. You also implied the changes were to make it appeal to a more mature audience when that audience would already be hooked by what exists in the book. Because the changes are not adding more then what existed in the book. Just different locations in the story.

My point isn't about what the book actually had or didn't have.

My point is what the show decided to keep in the script and show on screen within the 8 episodes it has to tell its whole story.

You also implied the changes were to make it appeal to a more mature audience when that audience would already be hooked by what exists in the book.

Your statement is not contradicting anything I've said. Again, you're not actually disagreeing here. Nothing is mutually exclusive about their choices and what could also exist as-is from the books. My point is about the showrunners choosing to focus more on mature themes. They choose to add more skin and sex appeal. Like, visually show it and make scenes dedicated to it, even going as far as implying sex scenes that didn't exist in the book (Rand + Egwene, to an extent Morraine and Suian which was always treated as a hidden relationship)

Again, where is the problem with my statements? That you think I was talking about this stuff not being in the books? Not my point, since I was always referring to Amazon's choice to have the Wheel of Time series tackle mature themes, much like Game of Thrones had. And in comparison, I said that the standard for fantasy series prior to GoT had been much less explicit and aimed for a more PG-13-friendly audience, like Legend of the Seeker or Shannara Chronicles. And I've backed this up with numerous articles which point out this very thing and how GoT shifted the entire landscape and paved the way for more mature-themed fantasy series that is acceptable by the mainstream audience.

Because the changes are not adding more then what existed in the book. Just different locations in the story.

Right, you can say this. I never really said anything that was contrary to anything you're implying here, so I don't really know why you're even telling me here. Again, nothing you're saying is actually contradicting my points. These are your opinions. Your opinion is Rand having sex with Egwene is not changes that add more than what existed in the books. Your opinion is that Suian can go down on Morraine and that's not a adding more than what existed in the book. Your opinion is that Steppan and Lan can talk about threesomes and that doesn't add or change anything from the books. That would be your opinion; but the changes exist nonetheless.

I get the feeling that you're trying to argue as if I've said something wrong and you need to hold me to my words. I can't tell if you're just misunderstanding or what, really. If you have a difference of opinion, I have no problem with you voicing it so. I do have a problem with you seemingly taking this as though these are somehow factual statements that render my own expressed opinion wrong.

[rhorle]

My point isn't about what the book actually had or didn't have. My point is what the show decided to keep in the script and show on screen within the 8 episodes it has to tell its whole story.

You didn't actually say that though. You said they choose to show more skin and sex then the books. They did not. It has just been in different spots. The show isn't focusing more on mature themes then the book. That is my point. The things you say focus more on it existed in the books but just at different parts of the story. The same audience for the books is the same "mature audience" you claim changes were made to court.

[Shadowferal]

However...... he had better include as the last line of the last show they are allowed to film, when the Rand has fallen and the world is losing hope.... a voiceover that says "I HAVE WON AGAIN, LEWS THERIN!"

Now that...omg oh yeah...sonuvabitch that would work!