Is Nighthold too easy on melee dps?

[Goldenboy1]

You just looked at HEROIC warcraftlogs to tell me all that? Padfest. And relevant. Not. We are talking about dps that actually matters. On fights that actually matter (Mythic). Because you failed with providing pertinent data the rest of your post I consequently deem not worth of my attention.

Actualy thats the Mythic data currently avaliable.

[Deleted]

Actualy thats the Mythic data currently avaliable.

I wonder why top guilds keep stressing (including Exorsus in that FinalBoss video) how melee are on average doing much better DPS and are much more suited to NH encounters. Maybe they realize padding should be excluded?

[Goldenboy1]

I wonder why top guilds keep stressing (including Exorsus in that FinalBoss video) how melee are on average doing much better DPS and are much more suited to NH encounters. Maybe they realize padding should be excluded?

You define keep stressing as one comment saying "the classes are balanced" at the very beginning of mythic progress. Your points are starting to become more pathetic as time continues. You even ignored my statement where I said melee have been cucked for years let us have this one which is a reference to the encounters even though ranged dps are still pulling ahead on 7/10 fights on the high end where you can assume player skill is equal. I swear if you come back at me with some shit like "that was after they killed Gul'dan" I might just have a stroke.

[bubbadubba]

So I've played both roles throughout Nighthold now and I must say that melee have a much easier time as far as mechanics goes, perhaps too easy?

As someone that has played ranged/melee/healing, I have to say that even when ranged have harder mechanics, they can still do more dps then melee with more mechanics. The reason I found is melee have to get out of melee range to either hide behind pillars or get out for mechanics, ranged just have to time instant casts and stay away from others on most ranged mechanics. Example, Skorpyron- Crystals are not on the boss, melee have to get out completely and can't dps for a certain amount of time, ranged just need to move a bit and keep dpsing. Another example, Nythendra- Rot sucks to get as a melee on the opener, it can literally determine how well you do in the fight, for a ranged it doesn't matter to much.

So Ranged can have harder mechanics and still have more value over melee on a fight unless melee get to sit on the boss and have 0 mechanics which is rarely the case.

Mechanics punish melee more then ranged.

[Deleted]

As someone who has played both at high end (top100).

Ranged does has more to do, fact. However, if and when mechanics effect melee they are usually 2-3x as punishing.

Example:
Spread 3-5yards as ranged? Sure, probably by accident
Spread 3-5yards as melee? You actually have to pay attention.

PS. I've never seen ranged do an interrupt rotation boss successfully.

Conclusion? Both have it hard, depends on fight.

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You just looked at HEROIC warcraftlogs to tell me all that? Padfest. And relevant. Not. We are talking about dps that actually matters. On fights that actually matter (Mythic). Because you failed with providing pertinent data the rest of your post I consequently deem not worth of my attention.

Ok..

Mythic (Top 3 DPS, ignoring classes) 28/2:

Low Tier: 2/9 Melee
Skorp: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Chronomatic: Ranged, Ranged, Melee
Trilliax: Ranged, Melee, Ranged

Mid Tier: 5/12 Melee
Tich: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Krosus: Melee, Melee, Melee
Botanist: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Aluriel: Ranged, Melee, Melee

Top Tier: 4/9 Melee
Star: Melee, Ranged, Melee
Elisande: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Gul*: Melee, Ranged, Melee
*How reliable this is, is questionable due to limited parses.

I make no judgment except to reiterate, different fights, different roles, seems fairly balanced.

[Deleted]

even though ranged dps are still pulling ahead on 7/10 fights on the high end where you can assume player skill is equal.

This is not what Exorsus said. Are you trying to argue against a WF guild? They melee-stacked most bosses in the raid. Argue against that, please!

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As someone who has played both at high end (top100).

Ranged does has more to do, fact. However, if and when mechanics effect melee they are usually 2-3x as punishing.

Example:
Spread 3-5yards as ranged? Sure, probably by accident
Spread 3-5yards as melee? You actually have to pay attention.

PS. I've never seen ranged do an interrupt rotation boss successfully.

Conclusion? Both have it hard, depends on fight.

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Ok..

Mythic (Top 3 DPS, ignoring classes) 28/2:

Low Tier: 2/9 Melee
Skorp: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Chronomatic: Ranged, Ranged, Melee
Trilliax: Ranged, Melee, Ranged

Mid Tier: 5/12 Melee
Tich: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Krosus: Melee, Melee, Melee
Botanist: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Aluriel: Ranged, Melee, Melee

Top Tier: 4/9 Melee
Star: Melee, Ranged, Melee
Elisande: Ranged, Ranged, Ranged
Gul: Melee, Ranged, Melee

I make no judgment except to reiterate, different fights, different roles, seems fairly balanced.

these logs are about padding mostly, look at what top guilds are doing. They know what is best and what does more damage.

[Sarevokcz]

I wonder why top guilds keep stressing (including Exorsus in that FinalBoss video) how melee are on average doing much better DPS and are much more suited to NH encounters. Maybe they realize padding should be excluded?

BS. try bringing full/heavy melee setup to most bosses and you will fail miserably, simply because there are numerous mechanics, that are absolute horseshit, if they have to be handled by melee, imagine heavy melee team on something like aluriel, krosus, augur or ellisande and others. you will NEVER face the same issues with mechanics, if you bring mostly ranged. so for your melee to be good contributors, you need them only in reasonable numbers, as in split or maybe 8/6, otherwise the mechanics are gonna lose you more dps, even if your melee are doing better dps on ST than ranged

And honestly? unless they specifically start making melee mechanics, that cant be done well enough by ranged (which is, you know, hard to come up with), then the NH way is the only way melee will have their spots in raids.

Atleast ranged can be the cocky ones, claiming how they have to deal with extra mechanics and without them the boss wouldnt die, right.

[Deleted]

This is not what Exorsus said. Are you trying to argue against a WF guild? They melee-stacked most bosses in the raid. Argue against that, please!

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these logs are about padding mostly, look at what top guilds are doing. They know what is best and what does more damage.

How do you pad any fight except Tich/Skorp? Genuine question.

Fel Soul damage is removed on Aluriel.
Bosses that heal damage is removed on Botanist.
Scrubbers damage is removed on Trilliax.

[Deleted]

How do you pad any fight except Tich/Skorp? Genuine question.

Fel Soul damage is removed on Aluriel.
Bosses that heal damage is removed on Botanist.
Scrubbers damage is removed on Trilliax.

Botanist and multidotting (Locks and SP do it for resource generation, however the DPS is enormously inflated)
On Anomaly you can just assign a frost mage or elemental shaman to deal with the smaller adds alone.


Also what about the first part of my post. Why did top 10 guilds stack melee?

Answer: they barely have to do any mechanics + their raw output just outshines that of ranged

[Deleted]

Doing mythic botanist on my DH alt was extremely boring as melee. We just sat on boss for 8,5 minutes not doing anything else, except the rogue who cleared spores a couple times.

Try soaking with netherwalk?

[Deleted]

You just looked at HEROIC warcraftlogs to tell me all that? Padfest. And relevant. Not. We are talking about dps that actually matters. On fights that actually matter (Mythic). Because you failed with providing pertinent data the rest of your post I consequently deem not worth of my attention.

This can be a nice slogan:

"World Of Warcraft, where the dps of 10% actually matters over the 90%".

[Sarevokcz]

Try soaking with netherwalk?

you still get the debuffs even with netherwalk active, its not like paladin bubble

[Deleted]

This can be a nice slogan:

"World Of Warcraft, where the dps of 10% actually matters over the 90%".

You are delusional if you think the hardcore minority does not in many ways affect the values of the majority. It can already be seen from how people considered specs that were just a bit behind at the start of Legion to be trash because no top guild used them. The reality is that they are not so far apart at all.

The 10% (or less even) subtly affects the behaviour much more than the masses. Cheesy statements are true. Same goes for "1% have a much higher say on societal outcomes than do 99%"

So grats on making yourself look stupid.

[Deleted]

Yes, legion raids are very melee friendly. It's beyond me why raid leaders keep prioritizing ranged > melee...

Because you can't have too many ranged, but you can have too many melee.

Take Aluriel. If you have too many melee, the frost debuff starts to appear in the melee camp or even on tanks. Which is simply stupid to deal with, and a gigantic DPS loss for melee. Its just much, uch smoother if you have enough ranged. There is absolutely no downside to have zero melee on aluriel.

Take Trilliax. If you are melee heavy, melee might be forced to jump on exploding scrubbers. Which is a DPS loss since they might have to go to the other side of the room. Same with eating cake. So, problems for melee, but absolutely no problem with having only ranged DPS.

Take Krosus. range DPS can soak green void to avoid imp spawns while DPSing the boss. Range DPS can handle the Orb with much less DPS loss since they can DPS the boss on a substantial part of their way. Again, no downside to using no melee at all, but heavy downside if you have lots of melee and only few or no ranged DPS.

Take Tichondrius. Range DPS can damage the boss while standing behind the pillars. Thats not necessarily possible for all melee. range DPS have less downtime when switching from bloods to the boss again. No downsides to being range DPS, but some minor downsides to being melee.

Take Star Augur. Melee have problems with the green phase. You need to properly place and soak the green void zones. Range DPS can simply put the green voids at the outer rim of the platform and continue DPSing. With only melee, the green void handling becomes a nightmare, but there is zero downside to having only ranged DPS.

And the list goes on.
Take Gul'Dan. Range DPs can continue DPSing, melee can not if they have to help with bonds because you have too few range DPS to handle them. Again, huge DPS loss if you have too many melee, but no downside if you have not a single melee.

Take Elisande. range DPS can stand behind a blue bubble and damage the next blue add across the room. Melee DPS can not. You have much more flexibility if you have lots of ranges on that fight, and it becomes quite hard if you have too many melee DPS. A tank failing with the debuff in the last pjase only damages the other tank if there are no melee. if there are lots of melee, die dmg goes up. So there is less room for error with lots of melee. Melee have DPS losses if the need to move around and soak the void zones. ranged DPs can move around and soak the void zones without DPS loss. Again, no downside to go with range DPS only, lots of downsides when going melee-heavy.

Take botanist. Huge DPS loss if melee have to go kill the plasma spheres. No problem for range DPS. You can easily do the fight wothout any melee, but it gets significantly harder when you have lots of melee.

The only bosses where it truly doesn't matter what setup you have are Skorpyron (which is a joke anyways) and Chronomatic anomaly. For all other bosses, you will want to go range heavy if you want to have it easy.


So yeah, I completely disagree that the Legion-bosses are melee-friendly. they are as melee-unfriendly as WoW bosses have ever been.

It seems that there is a shift in the word usage of the phrase "melee-friendly". back in the days, the phrase was used to describe bosses where it truly did not matter wether or not you were a ranged DPS or melee, and that taking a melee instead of a ranged DPS does not make the fight more difficult. As I have shown above, by that definition, only two bosses in nighthold are "melee-friendly", all other get harder, some even significantly hader, when you take too many melee and too few ranged DPS.

More and more people seem to use the word to describe that the boss is easy when you are one of the few melee, and the raid is quite balanced. In that regard you are right, most bosses in nighthold are somewhat easier for melee then they are for ranged, but if and only if you have enough ranged so that melee can concentrate on boss DPS.

[stevenho]

More and more people seem to use the word to describe that the boss is easy when you are one of the few melee, and the raid is quite balanced. In that regard you are right, most bosses in nighthold are somewhat easier for melee then they are for ranged, but if and only if you have enough ranged so that melee can concentrate on boss DPS.

That's what the OP and thread is about. Not whether 12 melee raid has an easier time on bosses than 12 ranged raid. The assumption is that raid is balanced. Blizzard design puts mechanics mostly on ranged while melee tunnels the bosses, and this is quite prevalent in nighthold. There are very few really dangerous mechanics for melee right now. It is really relaxing to play my DH, to the point where sometimes it is close to boring. I still like it, just wish there was more stuff to differentiate good melees from bads, apart from pure DPS output.

[smaktat]

Melee = window lickers

[Saybel]

I feel this is more relevant then ever.

[Deleted]

yeah and that is a good thing. Atleast for progress and peace of mind.

In general melee players are, in terms of maturity, patience and skill, inferior to their range counterparts.

It is a bit on the extreme side in LEGION and especially Nighthold that ranges have to do all the work while melees are tunneling the boss, but that is only logical considering how easy it is to perform well as a melee, to churn out good dps compared to range players.

Some bosses are a bit too much like Gul'Dan, mythic trilliax and a few others where it basically comes down to : "melee players you can hurr durr the boss while the range players master all the mechanics and make sure we don't wipe on the boss".
Sadly on some bosses like Botanist it happens too often that melee players are getting hit by the lashers while they are drooling on their keyboard, but thankfully Blizzard realized that with LEGION and the introduction of a new melee class, the Demon Hunter, that a very big majority of the "noobs" are ultimately drawn to that new shiny immature "I am so cool I am illidan" class that they made sure the biggest parts of the difficulties that raiding holds are best left for the range players.

Overall I think Blizzard did a good job. Sure it is annoying as a range player to carry those guys, but I would rather have it the way it currently is compared to a world where we need to rely on melees playing properly.
I for one am happy that Blizzard, and also raidleaders, are letting the melees do what they do best. Tunneling the boss and delight themselves over the damage meters where they always take the top spots for reasons beyond their comprehensive abilities.

Haha. I like it

[Deleted]

As said earlier in this thread the biggest thing is the "uhh melees have to swap/move away". Which applies only to the lower, no let's say wider audience but there threefold. I think the mechanics are just a thing to adapt to - after so many boring or even annoying mechanics that "moved" melees I don't think its bad to have more rewarding mechanics for melees to actually "react". Still love Deathwing fight for this - uhh no I didn't say that.

[Deleted]

While that's true, a melee failing this mechanic usually results in a wipe, while ranged are spread and might be unaffected (apart from the one person not moving and dying). I'm not blabbering about how ranged can DPS while moving, but you have to agree that the possibility of a ranged to do DPS while moving is higher than that of a melee, assuming the melee has to move out of melee range, and the range does not have to move out of casting range. Most "carry out" mechanics favor ranges over melees, because melees can't do anything for the whole duration of the mechanic, while ranged can at least utilize some of the duration to cast (thinking about Star Augur's ice/fel ejection thing, or Spellblade's Mark of Frost).

Also, name one range that does not have movement enhancing abilities or a teleport.

How about you name on spec/class that doesn't have any movement enhancing abilities/teleport? Not even DKs who have horrible mobility lack that.

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If you only look at the amount of mechanics ranges and meeles have to deal with, yes, it's easier for a melee, but thats not the whole picture.
- Your action radius as a range is much much much bigger than that of a melee, up to 100 times.
- As range, you only have to move out of some shit under your feet if it's there, the direction often is irrelevant, while as a melee you have to be in meele range again after moving, as well as not before the boss, since they often cleave. deadly cleave. moving too slow or too fast will kill you, while for range usually only moving too slow is deadly
- Your rotation usually is much slower than that of a melee, while you're wating for your 2sec cast go off, melees already did 3, 4 or more different attacks, which gives you more time to look at what and where the boss is doing some shit
- Happens rarely, but sometimes meeles have to move out, but are blocked by ranges behind them cause they don't give a fuck, well, it's easy to be meele, right?

You can't say if it's easier to be melee or range, since their problems are in different fields, some people can do this easier, some the other.

You give a lot of hypothetical scenarios that I'm just not seeing in the current raids. I mean, there's one glaring "don't stand in front of the boss" and that's on gul'dan with his energy, but that's a 2yd radius around the main tank, not exactly hard to avoid.

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It's waaaay easier than previous raids for sure. Just watch any guides to most other fights since Wrath / Cata. You will hear this quite a lot:
"on this fight, it's preferable to have as few melee as possible. if you overgear by a large margin you can bring more melee"
While not all fights were super melee-unfriendly, if only a few were it meant that Raid Leaders had to prepare raid rosters which were mainly ranged in order to not swap out too many people between fights.

The amount of ranged I've heard complain about having to sidestep Volcanic in m+ whilst saying that Necrotic is easy makes the whole "ranged is more mature and skilled" post absolutely hilarious drivel.

As someone playing both range and tank, volcanic is horrendous to deal with, necrotic is very easy to deal with. Volcanic is a constant vigilance that will flat out annihilate you and can't really be planned for. Necrotic is something you know will happen, you know when and how it will happen, and you can apply several abilities to deal with it safely and easily. Considering you seem to be melee it's even more hilarious since the extent of dealing with necrotic that you have to do is drop a chaos nova or other aoe stun at most.

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My guild is currently progressing on Spellblade Mythic and frankly the fight is a joke, like much of Nighthold in terms of ranged/melee balance. Melee generally do more damage, but the fight gets a lot easier if you have more ranged, as the more ranged you have the less healers you have dealing with the Mark of Frost and also gives you a lot of wiggle room with messing up the Marks. For example, on our first night we had exactly 2 'ranged' healers and 6 ranged dps. that meant we had to play the Mark perfectly, there was no room for bumping in the wrong place or slightly earlier etc or it would spread to melee 100%, who then had to be told exactly where to go to and when to break etc as they where unused to the mechanic, meaning it was more than likely it was going to get out of control. we put in 2 extra ranged dps and 1 extra ranged healer and the fight is unbelievably easier to do

What you're sayign here though is that your melee just didn't know how to deal with the mechanic properly. That's more a knock on them than the power of ranged considering "being told what to do and when to break" isn't rocket science.

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- On krosus one of our retri paladins runs (from first soak even) to the fucking back edge of the platform to soak and still does more damage than our mages. On the few tries he did not make it back there, no ranged went to soak and we had adds spawning on the back and wiping us.

I don't know who is shit or not in your guild, it's hard to quantify with the information I have. I think you should be aware though, that a 75th percentile paladin does more than 50k dps more than a 75th percentile firemage. This isn't because all ret paladins are much more skilled than all fire mages, but rather because fire mage is quite weak at ST damagedealing.

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Truncated wall

Looking at only #1 and #2 rank for a fight might be a bit of a stretch. For example on anomaly there's 1 frost mage and 5 fury warriors in the top 20, but you rank frostmage higher than fury war.

Also, cakes is mostly melee on Trilliax? While not even listing the cleaners that blow up and have to be soaked? No mention of orb of annihilation for krosus? Orb is "usually hunters" for elisande? When there's 4 of them coming down every time? Apparently only melee has to avoid the beams on gul'dan, no mention of the mechanic on him (Flames) that is the worst for melee and interrupts only as a melee thing when the first interrupt on the adds is pretty much always range?

Your list is quite obviously from a melee perspective and perhaps even from a "only watched video of this" perspective.