China adds first homemade aircraft carrier to its fleet.

[Easo]

Well, it doesn't change that because it's not a fact lol. Russia did do it, 30 years ago. Hence why I corrected your points about China now being 25 years ahead of Russia when all they have done is catch up to where the USSR were in 1985.

You missed the point. Russia hasnt been able to build a carrier for those 30 years, despite having the know-how while Chinese have closed to their level in a few years. What's even better, that other, bigger and more advanced carriers will follow, while Russia is still on the drawing board and will be for a foreseeable future.
Kuznetsov is old and quite bad at being a carrier (small aviation group) nor is it in any kind of way good at being a missile cruiser (not enough missiles), plus the use of missiles stops takeoff/landing of planes, and vice versa.. IIRC the missiles were removed few years ago anyway (someone please confirm). Both the Liaoning (even as a training ship) and this new one should be, by any means, better carriers.

[Zelk]

This thread is a great chance for some nerds to wank all over some big guns

[Z-Man]

Kuznetsov is old and quite bad at being a carrier (small aviation group) nor is it in any kind of way good at being a missile cruiser (not enough missiles), plus the use of missiles stops takeoff/landing of planes, and vice versa.. IIRC the missiles were removed few years ago anyway (someone please confirm).

They were supposed to be removed in 2012, but the refit was never completed place so it looks like they are still there. They may have kept them just for keeping Turkey happy. There's talk of replacing the Granits with Kalibrs in the next refit.

[Kul Tiras]

I wonder if most of its components are actually....made in China


LOL

[caervek]

You missed the point. Russia hasnt been able to build a carrier for those 30 years, despite having the know-how while Chinese have closed to their level in a few years.

I sorta get what you mean, Russia hasn't been able to afford a new aviation cruiser in nearly 30 years but they are planning a new one (though no ETA as yet, prob launch with Half Life 3 haha) and China haven't really closed to their level, they have just licensed tech from 30+ years ago and added a couple of bits.

What's even better, that other, bigger and more advanced carriers will follow, while Russia is still on the drawing board and will be for a foreseeable future.

The next ones are based on Russia's last design which was scrapped in the early 90's as they couldn't afford to finish it (apparently so is Russia's new one as the model is basically the same ship with PAK-50s on it lol). It is worth noting though that that cruiser design was nuclear powered and featured two catapults so could launch both CATOBAR and STOBAR aircraft.

Kuznetsov is old and quite bad at being a carrier (small aviation group)

Probably because it's not supposed to be a carrier, as has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. However as China's new carrier is based on it you could say it is bad at it.

IIRC the missiles were removed few years ago anyway (someone please confirm).

You're thinking of the INS Vikramaditya, an older Kiev class aviation cruiser that was sold to India and converted into an aircraft carrier. They removed the cruise and SAM launchers to install a second runway.

The weird thing is, when stripped down and converted into a carrier a Kiev class and a newer Kuznetsov class both end up looking and working pretty much the same, so China and India currently have pretty comparable carriers.

Both the Liaoning (even as a training ship) and this new one should be, by any means, better carriers.

They still have the same limitation of only being able to launch three planes at once (compared to four at once on a US carrier), even if they carry more.

[Kellhound]

They were supposed to be removed in 2012, but the refit was never completed place so it looks like they are still there. They may have kept them just for keeping Turkey happy. There's talk of replacing the Granits with Kalibrs in the next refit.

They dont have to make the Turks happy anymore because they do not control the shipyard that built him, Ukraine does.

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I sorta get what you mean, Russia hasn't been able to afford a new aviation cruiser in nearly 30 years but they are planning a new one (though no ETA as yet, prob launch with Half Life 3 haha) and China haven't really closed to their level, they have just licensed tech from 30+ years ago and added a couple of bits.



The next ones are based on Russia's last design which was scrapped in the early 90's as they couldn't afford to finish it (apparently so is Russia's new one as the model is basically the same ship with PAK-50s on it lol). It is worth noting though that that cruiser design was nuclear powered and featured two catapults so could launch both CATOBAR and STOBAR aircraft.



Probably because it's not supposed to be a carrier, as has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread. However as China's new carrier is based on it you could say it is bad at it.



You're thinking of the INS Vikramaditya, an older Kiev class aviation cruiser that was sold to India and converted into an aircraft carrier. They removed the cruise and SAM launchers to install a second runway.

The weird thing is, when stripped down and converted into a carrier a Kiev class and a newer Kuznetsov class both end up looking and working pretty much the same, so China and India currently have pretty comparable carriers.



They still have the same limitation of only being able to launch three planes at once (compared to four at once on a US carrier), even if they carry more.

No, the Russians actually were considering removing the ASuW missiles from the Kuz to increase the space for aviation purposes, because they understand aviation cruisers dont do anything as well as dedicated ships.

The Vikramaditya has a major disadvantage compared to the Liaoning, she was "refurbished" by a Russian shipyard (I mean really, 7 of 8 boilers failing during sea trials?). Plus she is smaller and has a smaller max sized airwing (not that either has a very impressive airwing capacity).

[Z-Man]

They dont have to make the Turks happy anymore because they do not control the shipyard that built him, Ukraine does.

Removing the missiles may make the ship subject to the Montreux Convention, which could block it from getting in and out of the Black Sea. If the ship becomes a true aircraft carrier, the Turks could force the Russians to deploy it out of Saint Petersburg instead of using Novorossiysk or Sevastopol.

[Nadiru]

A fucking ramp. God save us.

[Kellhound]

Removing the missiles may make the ship subject to the Montreux Convention, which could block it from getting in and out of the Black Sea. If the ship becomes a true aircraft carrier, the Turks could force the Russians to deploy it out of Saint Petersburg instead of using Novorossiysk or Sevastopol.

There is no reason to bring him into the confined waters of the Black Sea. He is a Northern Fleet vessel (home port is in the Kola Bay), Russia does not have access to the Nikolayev South Shipyard (aka Black Sea Shipyard) that built him, and Sevastopol's largest drydock is questionably sized to accommodate him. He goes to Sevmash for refits.

[caervek]

the Russians actually were considering removing the ASuW missiles from the Kuz to increase the space for aviation purposes

While they may have done that rumour is attributed to "anonymous navy sources" so hardly reliable :P.

because they understand aviation cruisers dont do anything as well as dedicated ships.

Yeah I heard that the US are considering bolting a GAU-8 onto the F-35 because it doesn't have the DPS of the A-10 :P (for those confused this is not true, they're not considering that, I'm just loling at Kells repeated failure to understand that a non-US military might actually prefer aviation cruisers to aircraft carriers for the roles their navy plays).

The Vikramaditya has a major disadvantage compared to the Liaoning, she was "refurbished" by a Russian shipyard (I mean really, 7 of 8 boilers failing during sea trials?).

That's a good point to be fair ^^

Plus she is smaller and has a smaller max sized airwing (not that either has a very impressive airwing capacity).

The Liaoning can carry an extra 2 planes, but that's not exactly game changing is it. I think the fact the Liaoning can launch 3 at a time whereas the Vikramaditya can only launch two (I could be wrong on this but I have seen no evidence it can launch >2 at a time), a side effect of the STOVL-STOBAR conversion.

Granted the Liaoning is a better carrier, but I still maintain they are comparable as it' not that much better, not like comparing Vikramaditya to a western carrier.

[Kellhound]

While they may have done that rumour is attributed to "anonymous navy sources" so hardly reliable :P.



Yeah I heard that the US are considering bolting a GAU-8 onto the F-35 because it doesn't have the DPS of the A-10 :P (for those confused this is not true, they're not considering that, I'm just loling at Kells repeated failure to understand that a non-US military might actually prefer aviation cruisers to aircraft carriers for the roles their navy plays).



That's a good point to be fair ^^



The Liaoning can carry an extra 2 planes, but that's not exactly game changing is it. I think the fact the Liaoning can launch 3 at a time whereas the Vikramaditya can only launch two (I could be wrong on this but I have seen no evidence it can launch >2 at a time), a side effect of the STOVL-STOBAR conversion.

Granted the Liaoning is a better carrier, but I still maintain they are comparable as it' not that much better, not like comparing Vikramaditya to a western carrier.

It came from a RIA Novosti article, so not unreliable either.

I understand the evolution of Soviet Naval Aviation very well, they evolved from ASW flagships to SAG flagships to being used as an actual carrier. (Oh, and technically the F-35 does use a GAU-8 derivative as its cannon.)

The Liaoning can carry about 10 more, but like US carriers she does not go to sea with a full airwing (they only have two squadrons of J-15s right now). The 3rd aircraft the Lia can launch literally has to fly over the #2 JBD, so it is more like 2.5 launches at a time. Also, remember the Indians are using the smaller and inferior MiG-29.

As I said, neither has an impressive airwing capacity. They are better than nothing, but still far less useful than a CATOBAR carrier.

[caervek]

It came from a RIA Novosti article, so not unreliable either.

It originated from a Sputnik article though and they are hardly Financial Times quality even when it comes to matters of their own country.

The Liaoning can carry about 10 more, but like US carriers she does not go to sea with a full airwing (they only have two squadrons of J-15s right now).

With full airwings the Liaoning can carry another two planes.

The 3rd aircraft the Lia can launch literally has to fly over the #2 JBD, so it is more like 2.5 launches at a time.

That's standard for a Kuznetsov class, but it's actually the JBD for the #1 launch that the #3 launch crosses over,

Also, remember the Indians are using the smaller and inferior MiG-29

Wrong way round, the "new" MiG-29K used on the Vikramaditya and the Kuznetsov is better than the older Su-33 used on the Liaoning (and formerly on the Kuznetsov).

As I said, neither has an impressive airwing capacity. They are better than nothing, but still far less useful than a CATOBAR carrier.

I said that too. Although simply being CATOBAR alone doesn't make a carrier better, we converted our CATOBAR carriers to STOVL because it worked better for what we wanted to do with them (plus it stopped those damn USN F-4's dropping by for tea all the time, always taking the last biscuit they were :P).

[Kellhound]

It originated from a Sputnik article though and they are hardly Financial Times quality even when it comes to matters of their own country.



With full airwings the Liaoning can carry another two planes.



That's standard for a Kuznetsov class, but it's actually the JBD for the #1 launch that the #3 launch crosses over,



Wrong way round, the "new" MiG-29K used on the Vikramaditya and the Kuznetsov is better than the older Su-33 used on the Liaoning (and formerly on the Kuznetsov).



I said that too. Although simply being CATOBAR alone doesn't make a carrier better, we converted our CATOBAR carriers to STOVL because it worked better for what we wanted to do with them (plus it stopped those damn USN F-4's dropping by for tea all the time, always taking the last biscuit they were :P).

Rumors often have some facet of truth to them though, and it would make sense for how they have actually been using him.

Max capacity of a Kuznetsov-class is 41-50 airframes (mix of fixed wing and rotary), max for the INS Vikramaditya is 36.

It still really means at best "2.5", and I use the USN numbering right to left for JBDs.

The MiG-29K is replacing the Su-33 for the simple purpose of keeping MiG afloat, as the plane is a pretty much a piece of crap even by Russian standards. India picked it for its smaller size, as the Su-33s avionics could have been updated pretty easily.

Yes, they worked better for operating Harriers. The RN was really wishing they had their F-4s back during the Falklands, and even more so wishing they had E-2s. I still shake my head that the RN wasted so much money building two STOVL carriers even considering the increased performance of the F-35B over the Sea Harrier.

[caervek]

Max capacity of a Kuznetsov-class is 41-50 airframes (mix of fixed wing and rotary), max for the INS Vikramaditya is 36.

Max for a Kuznetsov class aviation cruiser may be approx 41 but China aren't using Kuznetsov class aviation cruisers, they are using aircraft carriers based on the Kuznetsov class aviation cruiser, and they carry 40 aircraft. In total the Liaoning carries 24 planes compared to the Vikramaditya's 26 hence me saying before it's only a two extra planes (though I did facepalm before and say it was the Liaoning that carried 2 more not the Vikramadity, my bad).

So yeah like I said before the 2 planes aren't much of a difference, neither is the Liaoning's ability to sequentially launch three planes instead of two (though it hasn't yet been confirmed the Vikramaditya can't do that). The two carriers are pretty comparable to each other, just not to anything western.

The MiG-29K is replacing the Su-33 for the simple purpose of keeping MiG afloat, as the plane is a pretty much a piece of crap

It's like comparing Super Hornets and Tomcats, bigger doesn't always mean better.

I still shake my head that the RN wasted so much money building two STOVL carriers even considering the increased performance of the F-35B over the Sea Harrier.

It's kinda lol that the WW2 CATOBAR carrier we converted to STOVL for the harriers was sold to India after the Falklands and they used it until last month when it was retired, leaving them with just a STOBAR carrier that they built on the base of a Russian STOVL cruiser XD

[Kellhound]

Max for a Kuznetsov class aviation cruiser may be approx 41 but China aren't using Kuznetsov class aviation cruisers, they are using aircraft carriers based on the Kuznetsov class aviation cruiser, and they carry 40 aircraft. In total the Liaoning carries 24 planes compared to the Vikramaditya's 26 hence me saying before it's only a two extra planes (though I did facepalm before and say it was the Liaoning that carried 2 more not the Vikramadity, my bad).

So yeah like I said before the 2 planes aren't much of a difference, neither is the Liaoning's ability to sequentially launch three planes instead of two (though it hasn't yet been confirmed the Vikramaditya can't do that). The two carriers are pretty comparable to each other, just not to anything western.



It's like comparing Super Hornets and Tomcats, bigger doesn't always mean better.



It's kinda lol that the WW2 CATOBAR carrier we converted to STOVL for the harriers was sold to India after the Falklands and they used it until last month when it was retired, leaving them with just a STOBAR carrier that they built on the base of a Russian STOVL cruiser XD

The Liaoning, with the removal of the SS-N-19s and the space converted to aviation spaces, should actually have more capacity. The limitation the Liaoning is the lack of aircraft, not the lack of space.

The Vikramaditya doesnt have JBDs, and only two launch paths.

The F-14 airframe is superior to the F-18F airframe (the Super Hornet is what the F/A-18A/B should have been), so not a good comparison.

Well, the Vikrant is slowly nearing completion, so they will have 2 STOBAR carriers. The really funny thing is that besides the US and France, CATOBAR carriers served last in South America (Brazil and Argentina). Until this year (and when it was actually working), Brazil was the country with the 3rd most powerful carrier force thanks to the Sao Paulo. Granted, she didnt have much in the way of a viable airwing.