(TV) Star Trek: Discovery

[Endus]

In my opinion this show has taken a step back since the first season.

Now, the first half of season 1 was pretty bad but then it got a lot better. In season 2 this far they seem to have gone a full 180 and gone for a more "problem of the week" approach like the star trek series' of old and it just doesn't really work. I get that there's a main storyline here with the Red Angel much like there was a main storyline in season 1, but now it's kind of chopped up and filled with what can only be described as side missions.

One of the big complaints about S1 was that they tried to go for a full bingeable season arc, with everything tightly tied to that story. It was a deviation from what superfans thought Star Trek "should be", even though it's a shift that TV as a whole has really made, not just Star Trek.

This season is their attempt to play it both ways. IMO, it would have been better to establish the Red Angel stuff early, and then have Discovery continue their mission because they're at a dead end, and then a few episodes later you can have another red spot show up and base the episode around it. Instead, it feels like they've got unrelated storylines they keep whipsawing between every episode and it's a problem.

I mostly like the one-off storylines. The Red Angel stuff just seems like it's trying way too hard to be a "thing". That's due to weakness of the writing, because they just slap it in around the main actual story of each episode.

Doesn't help that it's almost definitively a deus ex machina device.

[draykorinee]

I prefered season 1 as I prefer the binge worthy story arcs, this one is solid, this episode was fine, but I don't see me craving the episode each week like I was with season 1 (Although I binged that in 3 days so its a bit different)

[Sorrior]

Combined with the fact that it has been stated multiple times that ST Discovery is not part of either the Kelvin or Prime Timelines and is in no way connected to Star Trek properties in any way I do not know why people keep putting it up to TOS and such. Yes they do have all the characters and ships and full universe of Star Trek, but they are not "connected" to any Star Trek shows.

When I watch this I think of it the same as I do Gotham, same world just not connected.

Since when? Because I am pretty damn sure they at least originally said it is supposedly the prime timeline

[Sorshen]

Last episode pretty much confirms it.

[cyberglum]

This pretty much explains why Discovery seems so disjoined:

[Wezmon]

Since when? Because I am pretty damn sure they at least originally said it is supposedly the prime timeline

Yeah they definitely did, multiple tweets and answers at Q&As. If that's changed I missed it (but I hope its true). But with the time travel stuff going on it looks like they are just going to rewrite some stuff (although that would technically mean it wasn't in the prime timeline)

[WoWGoneBad]

Since when? Because I am pretty damn sure they at least originally said it is supposedly the prime timeline

@cyberglum that is the video I was about to link lol. While Discovery is a Trek show with original ToS characters, they are not "officially" canonical to the Trek Kelvin or Prime timelines due to copyright laws and a bunch of legalese.

It is set in the "Prime timeline" but is not considered Prime canon due to copyright. So they have the ability to use all likenesses of the Prime timeline but it is not part of the Prime timeline canon that is ToS through Enterprise and the movies. The Kelvin timeline is its own canon. There is talk that they are trying to push an alternate universe theme where Discovery is Prime timeline but an alternate universe. It is all mumbo jumbo designed to allow them to call it Trek, use Trek characters and other properties, but at this time( they may change it at a later date) is not part of the official "Prime timeline" to lead up to Kirk and et al

[Frontenac]

It is Prime timeline and it is canon. Deal with it. It is very clear in Memory Alpha:

TV – CBS Television Distribution, CBS Paramount Network Television/CBS Television Studios, CBS Corporation (2005 – present)
Viacom had purchased CBS Corporation in 2000. They split in 2005. The old Viacom then became CBS Corporation. Its holding Paramount Television became CBS Paramount Network Television. CBS Television Distribution formed soon after and took over distribution of past Star Trek shows. In 2009, CBS Paramount Network Television became CBS Television Studios. Star Trek: Discovery is produced under this ownership.

Movies, DVDs – Paramount Pictures, Viacom (new) (2005 – present)
In the 2005 Viacom/CBS split, the old Viacom became the CBS Corporation and a new Viacom was created. This new company owns Paramount Pictures, which in turn owns the Trek films. Paramount Pictures produced Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness, and Star Trek Beyond under license from CBS Television Studios. Paramount also continues to distribute DVDs of the TV series on behalf of CBS. The split marked the occasion that the former Paramount Television was formally separated from Paramount Pictures; until this point in time the television company had always been a subsidiary division of Paramount Pictures.

CBS fully owns the TV shows (from TOS to Discovery) and they decide what is "canon". Discovery is canon and they said time and time again that it is in the Prime timeline. There is no 25% shit either. It has been denied repeatedly by CBS.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah they definitely did, multiple tweets and answers at Q&As. If that's changed I missed it (but I hope its true). But with the time travel stuff going on it looks like they are just going to rewrite some stuff (although that would technically mean it wasn't in the prime timeline)

It's not like there hasn't been any time travels in other Star Trek tv shows before. Neither of these travels changed the timeline.

[Endus]

It's not like there hasn't been any time travels in other Star Trek tv shows before. Neither of these travels changed the timeline.

Perhaps more accurately, the end result after the time travel shenanigans is what we call the Prime Timeline. If those time travel shenanigans hadn't happened, that would be a different timeline. The only thing that makes it "Prime" is it's the one we've been narratively following, aside from the film reboots.

[Skroe]

Season 2 is vastly improved over Season 1, and I've gone from finding a way to get pissed off about the show every episode in Season 1, to highly anticipating every episode.

This show fixed its shit, period.

There is a fatal flaw in it though. Pike is the best character, and he isn't sticking around.

Pike will presumably return to the Enterprise at the end of this season or the start of next one. I think a lot of people, including myself, see elements of this season as a kind of backdoor pilot to a "Pre-Kirk Enterprise" show, which frankly sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than Discovery and some of its characters. But in doing that, Discovery will get its third Captain in three season.

The problem is that Sonequa Martin-Green can't carry this show. She is an alright actress, and works well with an ensemble. But this is a modernized production. It is, consistent with most modern dramas, not an ensemble show. Burnham is the de facto POV character.

When Pike's gone - and her and Pike work well together as characters and actors - it's going to leave a massive hole. Another captain would just be strange.

I like where this season has gone. Really, I've liked basically everything about the season other than the overly dramatic Hugh Culber stuff which I just don't care for. I hope they do a lot more of this. I also hope it is leading where I think it is. But I can see this show ending in Season 3, and Burnham moving to the Section 31 show, and them doing an Enterprise show or something.

That's the biggest problem this season has. Most of it is going great, but between Pike, new Spock (who is so much better than terrible Zachary Quinto), Number One and the Talosians, I'd just rather see more of what they do rather than this anonymous bridge crew on a strange ship that's been through three show runners in two season.

[Endus]

Season 2 is vastly improved over Season 1, and I've gone from finding a way to get pissed off about the show every episode in Season 1, to highly anticipating every episode.

This show fixed its shit, period.

There is a fatal flaw in it though. Pike is the best character, and he isn't sticking around.

Pike will presumably return to the Enterprise at the end of this season or the start of next one. I think a lot of people, including myself, see elements of this season as a kind of backdoor pilot to a "Pre-Kirk Enterprise" show, which frankly sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than Discovery and some of its characters. But in doing that, Discovery will get its third Captain in three season.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Blow up the Discovery, destroying the Spore Drive, and let's destroy all records of that tech because shit's fucked up. Crew escapes. Pike goes back to the Enterprise. The Enterprise, having been in dock for a while for repairs/overhaul, now needs new crew, since the old crew weren't waiting around a year or more; Pike takes his pick from the best on Discovery, since he knows what they're capable of.

Pull Saru in (because Doug Jones is fucking awesome), Tilley, New Spock (he was old Enterprise anyway, and I actually like the new guy), maybe some of the visible bridge crew like Keyla Detmer that we really don't know much about. Leave out Burnham, Ash Tyler, probably Stametz and Culber (I think they're great, but I also think they've run their course, story-wise, after this season). Introduce new characters to fill in the gaps.

Shift some of them around a bit; Tilley's the new Chief Engineer, youngest in Starfleet. Put Saru in charge of security; his new predatory instincts and intellect allow for a COMPLETELY new spin on the role for the series.

Keep Michelle Yeoh's Georgiou around occasionally, if you can, because she's great.

The problem is that Sonequa Martin-Green can't carry this show. She is an alright actress, and works well with an ensemble. But this is a modernized production. It is, consistent with most modern dramas, not an ensemble show. Burnham is the de facto POV character.

She's also not growing as a character. They gave her the best possible arc at the start of Season 1, and then basically ignored it, and hand-waved it away by the end of that season. Shifting to the Enterprise is a good excuse to dump her. I can't put all the blame on Martin-Green; she's been given pretty poor material to work with. Burnham's just angry or confused, like, all the time. Even her romance sideplot with Ash is mostly anger and confusion. Occasionally, disgust.

[Skroe]

This isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Blow up the Discovery, destroying the Spore Drive, and let's destroy all records of that tech because shit's fucked up. Crew escapes. Pike goes back to the Enterprise. The Enterprise, having been in dock for a while for repairs/overhaul, now needs new crew, since the old crew weren't waiting around a year or more; Pike takes his pick from the best on Discovery, since he knows what they're capable of.

Pull Saru in (because Doug Jones is fucking awesome), Tilley, New Spock (he was old Enterprise anyway, and I actually like the new guy), maybe some of the visible bridge crew like Keyla Detmer that we really don't know much about. Leave out Burnham, Ash Tyler, probably Stametz and Culber (I think they're great, but I also think they've run their course, story-wise, after this season). Introduce new characters to fill in the gaps.

Shift some of them around a bit; Tilley's the new Chief Engineer, youngest in Starfleet. Put Saru in charge of security; his new predatory instincts and intellect allow for a COMPLETELY new spin on the role for the series.

Keep Michelle Yeoh's Georgiou around occasionally, if you can, because she's great.



She's also not growing as a character. They gave her the best possible arc at the start of Season 1, and then basically ignored it, and hand-waved it away by the end of that season. Shifting to the Enterprise is a good excuse to dump her. I can't put all the blame on Martin-Green; she's been given pretty poor material to work with. Burnham's just angry or confused, like, all the time. Even her romance sideplot with Ash is mostly anger and confusion. Occasionally, disgust.

I entirely agree.

Stametz and Culber... man... Stametz pretty much toast as a character. Compared to Season 1 he's been not just sidelined, but given nothing to do this season besides being the guy who hugs Culber and the guy who acts as the key to turn on the Spore Drive. He, Culber and Burnham have really suffered the most from the production difficulties this show had in Season 1.

Stametz isn't an engineer. He's Mr. Mushrooms. Remove the spore drive from the equation, as they are clearly moving towards, and he has no role on the ship.

Culber is a supporting character they killed in Season 1 mostly to push Stametz and Tyler's story forward, that they decided they really liked later on, and came up with a nonsense way to revive him. But now the ship has another CMO. So where does he fit in?

And Burnham? Her season 1 war-starting person stuff was compelling for her as a POV character. It worked. Her season 2 stuff is mostly there because she is Spock's adopted sister. So what's her hook for Season 3? Smart science officer?

So yeah, just taking Saru and Tilley and at some point doing an Pike-Enterprise show, post-Cage, pre-TOS Season 1, would be perfect. They wouldn't even need to recast the one-off characters from the cage because everyone aside from Spock and Number One could have just moved to new assignments. I just loved Pike's entirely adult in the room response to Saru over the Culber/Tyler brawl. He's the single most competent person in the entire show.


In terms of Wider Star Trek continuity, let's talk Klingons and Ash Tyler.

Ash Tyler / Voq is a total gimmick character from Season 1 that got pulled to Season 2 with new, strangle pro-Federation motivations, because again, they decided they liked the actor and wanted to keep using him. Season 2 has largely fixed the problems with the Klingons, but they can go the entire way litterally with 20 seconds of exposition.

T'Kuvma's slogan in Season 1 was "Remain Klingon", which was supposed to juxtaposition again Star Trek finally highlighting the Federation being very human-centric despite its interstellar nature. T'Kuvma directly addressed humanity's outsized role. Furthermore the phrase and "nationalist" connotations were a intentional bit of allegory by Bryan Fuller.

I think, and have long thought "Remain Klingon" should be taken literally, and is the gateway to fixing every single Klingon continuity issue there is.

This show has not mentioned the Klingon Augment Virus. It should. It also didn't go into why the Klingon Empire went into isolation decades before the start of Discovery. And in wider Star Trek canon, there has never been an official explanation as to why Klingon and Federation relations were poor until 2293, despite the Federation and Klingon's being in contact for about 140 years.

The Klingon Augment Virus is the key to all of it. The explanation... the explosion is rather simple. The Klingon Augment Virus was a multifaceted disaster for the Klingon Empire. Human-looking Klingons (and let's say the cure in Enterprise failed and it continued to spread) spread throughout the empire and seriously damaged the very concept of what it meant to be Klingon. Parents gave birth to Human looking children. Nobody looked like Kahless. Human-Klingons were physically less robust than pure Klingons.

Something like the Klingon Augment Virus should have been, by rights, probably one of if not the most significant event in Klingon History and led to a widescale breakdown of society (specifically with how their society functioned), culture, institutions, everything.

So that's why the "Klingons went dark" for decades. They had their own mini-Apocalypse of sorts. The empire of the 2150s devolved into basically a post-Apocalyptic shitstorm.

This means that T'Kuvma's "Remain Klingon" could be taken rather literally. Genetic Engineering would halt the progression of the Klingon Augment Virus throughout the population. It would undo many of those human genes. But in the interim (since its an early stage in the process), it gives them their weird Season 1 look. That's them trying to remain Klingon... and getting closer. At least, not looking like humans anymore.

Which hooks into Ash Tyler, who has gone in the opposite direction. It's pretty clear I think, he is, or at least was at somepoint, a way they were going to try and attempt to explain human-like TOS Klingons in a non-Argument way. I think they should do that by basically having him sour on the entire Federation by the end of this season, go back to the Empire, kill L'rell, and embrace "Remaining Klingon" in his own way, and show, through his engineering on himself, the return of classic Klingons.

Anyway, Discovery has fixed a lot of Season 1 wanting to do a Star Trek show in name only. The Klingons are better off, but I do think that the interaction between "Remain Klingon", the Augment Virus and Genetic engineering, is the avenue by which almost everything in continuity with them can be fixed single handedly.

[WoWGoneBad]

I would rather Stametz stay and he carry on with Tilly. These to make a great dynamic. Tilly's personality and his just clash and mesh at times so easily that they are pretty much in sync with each other. Add in Female Scotty(forgot her name already) and that is a engineering crew that is bound to have some great on screen moments. But I completely agree with Culber, bringing him back was such a HUGE mistake for "diversity" reasons.

Ash well he will do great in Section 31 if he can ever get his head out of his ass and use both sides of his Ash/Voq persona. You can see he is starting to fit into it with the last few episodes, but I just dont think the writers know how to make them sync because you can see that his lines and acting is all over the place to keep up with it. Him and Georgiou would take command of the Sec 31 ship with baldy getting das boot.

Gotta get Detmer more time too, she and Owou are a great team. Not as great as Data and Geordie or Sulu and Checkov but they do seem to be synced at running the ship.

Burnham just needs to go. I gave all the time I could to let her settle in, but with her always getting front billing and her character not seeming to mesh into the crew other than Saru or Tilly, well she is just about useless. All her scenes could be done by another crew member and not even skip a beat.

I want to see more Pike actually being in command. The actor is great in the role and his screen time is probably the only memorable thing I keep in mind through out all the cast.

I think they tried too hard to rush the Federation/Klingon war. There should have been a build up to it. Season 1 being seeing the Klingons in isolation wanting to return to their battle roots and destroy all, and then seeing the Federation doing its exploration thing. At the end of the season we could have the Battle of the Binary Stars and Season 2 could focus on the war and the Augmentation virus that affected the Klingons and sent them back into isolation. Season 3 could see the final battles of the war and the repercussions of the war from both sides during the second 1/2 of the season. Just my ideal dream of the direction the show should have taken lol.

[sarahtasher]

So, those new foes….In your opinon, Borg or the ones whos sent V'ger ?

[WoWGoneBad]

Just got done with the latest episode.

I know it is a HUGE stretch, but I think that we just saw the birth of the Borg. A cy"borg" taken over by some sphere, uses her to gather all data from all races from the sphere, download it to an AI intelligence called Control. It knows all weaknesses, a race that can always win.

[Elim Garak]

Just got done with the latest episode.

I know it is a HUGE stretch, but I think that we just saw the birth of the Borg.

No. Borg are older than Federation.

[Senphiroth1134]

I've been listening to podcasts about this esries for awhile now and I can't believe how under the radar is when it sounds like it's a pretty quality put together series...

I can't remember a time when people just didn't really like star Trek in the first place anyway (although of course not literally everyone likes it)

[SavoirFaire]

I know there was a lot of spit-balling about this being some Iconian backstory for S2. I'm a-ok with it being a brand new race, something that Star Trek seems to be averse to because the canon-freaks start running around waving their fingers. Guess I'll have to hop out of this thread until I can binge the whole season to avoid mild spoilers. I hope this is a full run, and no 3-month mid-season break...

[Skroe]

So, those new foes….In your opinon, Borg or the ones whos sent V'ger ?

So this is going to be semi spoilery


Last warning.....


DIS sort of lifted "Control" from the books. In those, Control was a an evolved version of Section 31's AI that predated the founding of the federation and was written put in place to secretly protect Earth. For oever 250 years Control existed and evolved and was the secret guiding hand behind the Federation.

Discovery's Control is a far bit different, but I think it is echoing some of it. Control is the secret power behind not just Section 31, but the Federation for 100 years. It's been evolving, and in the 28th Century it would evolve into a machine life form that conquered the entire galaxy. But the Red Angel stuff and the Sphere changed the timeline and accelerated its evolution, so Control is achieving its level of sophistication it would achieve centuries hence, now.

That's the big bad of the season. Not aliens or the borg, but a rogue Federation AI. Frankly, THE Federation AI. That's pretty new. Star Trek hasn't really explored that all that much.

[draykorinee]

This was a top episode, very enjoyable.