Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[DingDongKing]

Which has nothing to do with fighting against equality in 2020.

I agree, but my point is there is an annoying section of the population that has never shed his its disdain for equality. Amongst both rich and poor.

[Adam Jensen]

I don't know if it counts as a scandal, but Trump says you won't see him again if he loses. Not surprising since he'd be likely running from the dozens of lawsuits coming his way.

im_okay_with_that.gif

[Monster Hunter]

Be careful what you wish for.

It's not all flowers and happiness over here either, parliamentary democracy with bazillion parties slows down and waters down effective decision making at the time of need.

Locally our 2nd wave coronavirus response is pretty atrocious - we seen it coming months ago, it was already apparent we're in a month ago and because of various populist crap religious parties in coalition, the PM could not do shit about it, despite trying hard. Only now we have entered a lockdown and it's a pretty damn watered down one because of coalition members populist crap.

Eh, I've heard this argument but tbh when I looked into things it didn't hold water, the cons have such a majority and its almost a single fsction of the cons that have party control after the purge before the last election that Boris has as much power as a single priminister can possible have, atm the other partys are essentialy a meaningless formality till things change in the next election, you are right that it does cause issues, for example everything you said there did play out before the last election with the brexit situation but if argue is that really a bad thing that we had the full diversity of political views argued for in our halls of power? That to me just sounds like democracy in action, if people want quick government then democracy is not the system that delivers that.

The corona issue is more down to legalities and limits on what a pm and even the parliament can do. I had this argument on Facebook with a brexiteer who believed now were leaving the eu, bojo can do what ever he wants, but the reality is laws aren't created equal and there are some laws for example ones adopted via the UN like rights legislation that are supreme and Parliament cannot legally remove them and thats kind of what the virus legislation runs up against, as such the guidance and new legislations for covid have to be delicately balanced against them because the last thing any one wants is a high court challenge from a member of the public and the legislation being ruled illegal.

So for example the pm could order every one has to stay indoors 24/7 and all the boarders to be shut and we would be free of covid in a couple weeks, job done. And he could even pass that bill through Parliament if he wanted but it would likely immediately be met by a high Court challendge on human rights grounds.

Then it also has to be balanced against the economy, which when I bring that up people often jump to the "so you care more about money than lives" which is not the case, what is the case is that poverty has killed more people than covid ever will and there's no point surviving covid only to face the deaths and hardship economic depressions bring on, I think every one has read about 1920s america, the bread lines and the starvation, its almost unimaginable in a modern first world nation but then so to was a global pandemic started because one guy ate an endanged animal.

[Dontrike]

Yup, totally what happened. She couldn't possibly have said it herself, because that would go against what he and Republicans want....

The Deep State caused her to used pen and ink!

[Pannonian]

Yup, totally what happened. She couldn't possibly have said it herself, because that would go against what he and Republicans want....

I saw an interview with a Qanon woman who explained how Trump only befriended Epstein 30 years ago knowing he would be president and the media was out there to get him, so that if Epstein was arrested 3 decades later the media would report about it because they could connect it to trump (because otherwise they'd protect Epstein) - the same "reason" why he had Acosta as labor secretary: to give the media a target, because otherwise they'd sweep everything under the rug.

If you believe that, then this seems almost rational.

[DingDongKing]

The GOP is just the what’s what of political grievance. ‘Nyaaaah we want it our way cos we never get it our way even though we always get it our way but in case we don’t get it our way we’re gonna complain about it’. Tiresome load of shit.

[Thekri]

GE won't be building any new Coal Power Plants. Trump is not doing a fantastic job of saving coal. If GE isn't building them, there is really only one company in the world that can do that, Simmons (Which an EU company, not a US company).

So the only US power generation manufacturer is officially out of game (And going broke due to unrelated issues), and the only company that can do it really doesn't want too. Tell me again how Coal is totes going to come back?

[cubby]

Only example i can draw from is gay rights in the UK, and it takes generations of education but its does lead to a more stable political outlook for those rights, sexuality hasn't even been talked about political since I think the late 80s, where as its still seems to be a topic in the states.

The last right that was given was gay marriage and I actually see it as a mark of pride and a testament to the better aspects of UK society that gay marriage stood as a Conservative manifesto pledge, but that's the result of decades and generations of education

Our gay rights and gay marriage legislation and legalization is one of the hopes I hold onto in regards to the future of the United States. But even then, those rights are just five votes away from being removed (vis a vis the Supreme Court).

[Adam Jensen]

I saw an interview with a Qanon woman who explained how Trump only befriended Epstein 30 years ago knowing he would be president and the media was out there to get him, so that if Epstein was arrested 3 decades later the media would report about it because they could connect it to trump (because otherwise they'd protect Epstein) - the same "reason" why he had Acosta as labor secretary: to give the media a target, because otherwise they'd sweep everything under the rug.

If you believe that, then this seems almost rational.

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[Gorsameth]

I don't know if it counts as a scandal, but Trump says you won't see him again if he loses. Not surprising since he'd be likely running from the dozens of lawsuits coming his way.

I'd be willing to bet money on Trump getting into a plane heading for Moscow on Jan 19th if he loses.

[Justank]

I saw an interview with a Qanon woman who explained how Trump only befriended Epstein 30 years ago knowing he would be president and the media was out there to get him, so that if Epstein was arrested 3 decades later the media would report about it because they could connect it to trump (because otherwise they'd protect Epstein) - the same "reason" why he had Acosta as labor secretary: to give the media a target, because otherwise they'd sweep everything under the rug.

If you believe that, then this seems almost rational.

How the fuck do you get to the point where you believe someone is powerful enough to plan and execute national level events decades in advance, and somehow this person isn't part of their feared 'deep state elites'. This is insanity.

[Eviscero]

How the fuck do you get to the point where you believe someone is powerful enough to plan and execute national level events decades in advance, and somehow this person isn't part of their feared 'deep state elites'. This is insanity.

Eat nothing but lucky charms, mountain dew, and lead paint for the first three years of your inbred life?

[cors8]

How the fuck do you get to the point where you believe someone is powerful enough to plan and execute national level events decades in advance, and somehow this person isn't part of their feared 'deep state elites'. This is insanity.

Well, these same morons believe that's how Obama became President. It's a vast conspiracy.

[Pannonian]

How the fuck do you get to the point where you believe someone is powerful enough to plan and execute national level events decades in advance, and somehow this person isn't part of their feared 'deep state elites'. This is insanity.

It's less a question of "can" and more a question of "want" - they want to believe it, because if they believe it they're not racist, they're not hypocrites, they're not stupid idiots.

If they believe it, then they're the heroes of the story.

Sadly it's a very human thing to do...

[Draco-Onis]

GE won't be building any new Coal Power Plants. Trump is not doing a fantastic job of saving coal. If GE isn't building them, there is really only one company in the world that can do that, Simmons (Which an EU company, not a US company).

So the only US power generation manufacturer is officially out of game (And going broke due to unrelated issues), and the only company that can do it really doesn't want too. Tell me again how Coal is totes going to come back?

Bringing back coal was as laughable as Mexico paying for the wall unless Trump had access to a time machine it wasn't going to happen. It's sad there are people stupid enough to buy into this.

[DingDongKing]

This isn't a massive surprise. Robert Mueller — and special counsel’s office — let the American people down on Trump probe, prosecutor says.

Former special counsel Robert Mueller and his office let the American people down with their probe into President Donald Trump’s campaign and Russian interference in the 2016 election, a prosecutor who served in the special counsel’s office says in a new interview.

Andrew Weissmann, a former top deputy to Mueller, in his forthcoming book “Where Law Ends, Inside the Mueller Investigation,” faulted the special counsel and the office for not doing enough to fully investigate potential criminality and to push back on Trump’s efforts to undermine the investigation.

George Packer of The Atlantic, during an interview with Weissmann, asked “if Mueller had let the American people down.”

″‘Absolutely, yep,” Weissmann said, according to Packer, before quickly adding: “I wouldn’t phrase it as just Mueller. I would say ‘the office.’”

″ There are a lot of things we did well, and a lot of things we could have done better, to be diplomatic about it,” Weissmann said in the interview.

When asked if the probe was a historic missed opportunity, Weissmann tersely replied, “That’s fair,” according to Packer.

“There’s no question I was frustrated at the time,” Weissmann told The Atlantic. “There was more that could be done that we didn’t do.”

One of the key things that Mueller did not do was seeking to compel Trump, with a subpoena, to answer questions from the special counsel’s team in person, while under oath.

“In Where Law Ends, Weissmann reveals that the real reason for not compelling the president to be interviewed was Mueller’s aversion to having an explosive confrontation with the White House,” Packer wrote.

Mueller’s investigation led to the successful prosecutions of multiple people in Trump’s orbit, including his one-time campaign chief Paul Manafort, top campaign aide Rick Gates, and the president’s former personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, as well as to indictments against Russians for interfering in the 2016 election.

But Weissmann, echoing others before him, criticizes the probe that he worked on for not being aggressive enough at times to obtain evidence, and from failing to state conclusively whether Trump obstructed justice by interfering in the investigation.

Mueller’s report issued last year had said that the investigation “does not conclude that the president committed a crime,” referring to obstruction of justice, but also “does not exonerate him.”

Packer notes that “Where Law Ends describes numerous instances, large and small, when Mueller declined to pursue an aggressive course for fear of the reaction at the White House.”

“For example, the special counsel shied away from subpoenaing Don Trump Jr. to testify about his notorious June 2016 meeting in Trump Tower with a Russian lawyer offering dirt on Hillary Clinton. Ivanka Trump, who didn’t attend the meeting but talked with participants afterward in the lobby, and later discussed with her father how to conceal details from the press, was never even asked to speak with Mueller’s investigators,” Packer wrote.

In his book, Weissmann wrote that Mueller’s investigators “feared that hauling her in for an interview would play badly to the already antagonistic right-wing press—Look how they’re roughing up the president’s daughter—and risk enraging Trump, provoking him to shut down the Special Counsel’s Office once and for all.”

Elsewhere in the book, Weissmann wrote, “Part of the reason the president and his enablers were able to spin the report was that we had left the playing field open for them to do so.”

Mueller tried being in impartial investigator, but didn't realise he had to push way harder with an administration that was more corrupt than any other. It's running theme of not realising how low Trump and the GOP can actually go, so they're underestimated.

[silveth]

So when the GOP broke the rules to benefit themselves in 2016 you were sad about it, but now that they are upholding the rules they broke last time, because upholding those rules benefits themselves this time, you are fine with it?

No honestly I am as annoyed now as I was back then because of back then. I stated my disagreements with it when it happened and got into a bunch of arguments with people about it. I have gotten into arguments now with people about it because, while I agree its fully legal and fine for them to do with in the rules of congress, its just a crappy move after what they did back then. I know that even if they went through the hearings and such that Obama's pick would not have been approved, but I still believe they should have done it.

I honestly think that the government is messed up to the extreme at this point. BOTH Democrats and Republican are to blame.

The presidents have been allowed over the last 100+ years to become too powerful. I said it for Bush, Obama, and Trump. All these executive orders that basicaly make or change laws are wrong from both sides. Congress should be making laws that the president then executes. It should not be the presidents right to change them on the fly. You want to change or add a law, convince the people to be behind it so they force Congress to do it. The Supreme Court has also become too powerful. They should not be making or changing laws with rulings. That's Congress's job. By design, the Supreme court was suppose to be the weakest branch but they also have been allowed to gather power. Overall the Federal government has grown to be to BIG, added in so many pieces that were not part of the original ideas behind what it should handle that is can't seem to function well on anything. States and local areas should have more control over their government because ONE size does not always fit all equally as long as control fits within the federal laws (On the other side States/Cities should also not be allowed to ignore Federal laws either. That is also a problem). I don't see either side fixing the government anytime soon because the answer is always more government, which makes things worse.

[Flower Milk]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rump-bill-barr

I live in Portland, I am an anarchist, and the vast majority of people here are not. This is horse shit.

I hope my state stops paying federal taxes and closes ports of entry over this, we're just an anarchist state now guys so sorry.

[Felya]

I live in Portland, I am an anarchist, and the vast majority of people here are not. This is horse shit.

I’m in Seattle... as I said in the thread on the subject... If NYC and Seattle keeps our federal taxes, we can live in paradise, instead of funding states that fight against our policy. We love Portland... we got your back...

[Bodakane]

Aye she would have been good, but being honest politicaly in other areas she was to left yet for america, I can understand ofc alot of you guys want to have what Europe has as far as the socialist aspects of our societys, anything from the UK models to the Nordic models and as some one who's just had his hand rebuilt by the NHS after a cricket accident for free I can fully understand why.

But the lesson of Obama care should be that basically elections aren't really a vehicle for permanent change, unless its come as a result of social education on issues, the republicans will continue to hold policy's anti health care for as long as that is a vote winner for them, and as such will roll back what ever the demo do when the political wind eventually changes as it always does, the trick to lasting change is to make it like it in the UK where even the idea of private health care is so disgusting an idea to the general public no party will stand on that platform, and such things only come about from education.

If Americans were taught the truth about European health care models and not just fed constant and debunked lies about the cost, free health care would be as no brainer as the free fire and police services.

Also the tax argument against it is rubbish, its no great source but a guy called Russell wark on a quorate article gave a detailed break down that shows most Americans (depending on state taxes) pay more in tax than an average UK citizen and UK citizens get free health care from there taxes but us citizens then have the additional health insurance costs.

Also need to take the fear the republicans have that doing these things some how makes them socialist or they will suddenly melt or something, the Conservative party in the UK has held power for the longest amount of time of the 2 party's since the 1918 election reforms that gave the working and middle class the vote here and in that time we made the NHS and advanced all these rights, and by there popularity the cons had to adopt them, he'll in some cases like gas marriage they created it,

But thats what happens when a society moves left and the partys and politics react to it rather than political partys trying to drag a society not ready left, our whole political spectrum is left compared to the US. And yea we still had brexit (but that was far more complex than left v right,there were breathers from both sides of the political spectrum for different reasons who wanted out of the eu) and there's still racists and sexists and homophobes the war on them isn't one thats ever going to stop cos there will always be those elements in a society, the key is to just make them such a small amount there not worth a main party pandering to.

But if america wants to catch up to Europe as far as the things we enjoy over here, then it needs to unwind 50ish years of cold War propaganda and start at the grass roots and at the basics, non of the stuff that even Europe finds controversial and we debate, right at the grass roots and educate on the basics, work on getting better workers rights, get better health care, get better investment into poor areas, do some slum clearance and rebuilding, social housing schemes e.t.c

my general take is I see america and all the who ha over there and my immediate thought is all that violence is pointless between the two sides as there trying to run before they can walk on alot of issues.

The lesson the Dems should have learned with the ACA is to stop sitting down at the negotiating table with compromise as their first offer. The right in the US are bad faith actors in any and all negotiations so trying to be adult and lead with the midway point, just allows them to set that mid point as the left's starting point and the real compromise will be halfway between that and what the right wants.

The dems think they are being good, just and above board by doing that and the Repubs just see blood in the water. That's the first chance they got in 2010 they removed ley parts of the ACA that significantly damaged the ability for the people to get lower cost health insurance. Since then they've been chipping away at it until it is a toothless and useless shell.