The Brexit aftermath thread

[Dizzeeyooo]

We should all have gotten behind May.

Her deal is inferior to EU membership in every way, so lets not start getting regretful now.

Vote tomorrow to force him to request an extension, vote of no confidence if he refuses, Lab/Lib Dem/SNP/Green/TIG/whoever else wants to join in government of national unity, see what happens after that.

[Pann]

I think Pann’s point is that pretty much every option is untenable to one section of the population or another.

We should all have gotten behind May.

Yup.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Nah I think we were talking about the indicative votes they did before the last extension was given (where they could not agree on anything and tons of them actually abstained)

Well, yes, but Nigel is quite correct when he says that whatever option is taken (or not), someone, somewhere will have the hump.

[Pann]

Having had a close look at tomorrow's proposal all I say is what are they thinking?!?



Essentially whenever the EU says the extension ends we must agree. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

[Dizzeeyooo]

Essentially whenever the EU says the extension ends we must agree. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Would be helpful if you wouldn't blatantly lie and/or parrot BBC commentators to try and sound clever.



"Here's what 3(3) says. In essence, the Bill enables Parliament to reject an extension to a date proposed by the EU."

Parliament can reject the extension date if it chooses to, Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson can not.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Yup.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves.

So no blame for May, the Tories and the red lines they put in place that meant that any deal they could possibly get couldn't get enough support from even their own party, never mind the wider Parliament?

Pretty much what I'd expect from you, sadly. Never shy of directing blame where you personally believe it belongs, regardless of the facts.

[Pann]

So no blame for May, the Tories and the red lines they put in place that meant that any deal they could possibly get couldn't get enough support from even their own party, never mind the wider Parliament?

Pretty much what I'd expect from you, sadly. Never shy of directing blame where you personally believe it belongs, regardless of the facts.

Are the government not a part of parliament? Sorry I must have missed that.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Are the government not a part of parliament? Sorry I must have missed that.

While the Government is made up of members of Parliament, the Government is a seperate political entity with its own responsibilities and privileges. The Government cannot unilaterally pass primary legislation, for example.

The Government, under Theresa May, put forth its red lines to the EU. Her government is therefore responsible for the result of the negotiations, which was a direct consequence of the incompatibility of those red lines with a reasonable treaty.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Gove has pulled plans to publish “watered down” version of the government’s Operation Yellowhammer no-deal Brexit contingency plans, after ministers decreed that the findings would still alarm the public.

Maybe the person doing the watering down needs to believe harder! Maybe Rees Mogg should lie about them on national radio also

[Huehuecoyotl]

Are the government not a part of parliament? Sorry I must have missed that.

And the nitpicking and disingenuous misdirection begins. Are we going to get the full spread of Pann's greatest hits here?

You suggested that Parliament was to blame for the failure of the deal to progress. I pointed out that the restrictions on any deal that could be placed before them were a result of the Tory government and their red lines. Sure, they are part of Parliament, but by attempting to spread the blame to the wider set we can all see what you are doing. It's pretty standard for you.

It was a Tory deal. Negotiated by Tories. Restricted by Tory red-lines. And what they produced never even got a majority in their own party, never mind the wider Parliament. The birth of this failure was written through with Tory like a rancid stick of rock. What happened subsequently involved petty politicking on all sides, which the FPTP system causes. But these were just symptoms of a Tory disease that has infected UK politics for decades; the battle between the pro and anti EU sides of their own party.

But you would rather choke on your own words than admit any of this. Because you've always been about attempting to spread the blame beyond those points where it deserves to reside. While ironically trying to paint yourself as a beacon of the reasonable centre. I suppose at least you can say you've been consistent, unlike the Brexit crew that have not just moved the goalposts, they've changed sports.

[Pann]

And the nitpicking and disingenuous misdirection begins. Are we going to get the full spread of Pann's greatest hits here?

You suggested that Parliament was to blame for the failure of the deal to progress. I pointed out that the restrictions on any deal that could be placed before them were a result of the Tory government and their red lines. Sure, they are part of Parliament, but by attempting to spread the blame to the wider set we can all see what you are doing. It's pretty standard for you.

It was a Tory deal. Negotiated by Tories. Restricted by Tory red-lines. And what they produced never even got a majority in their own party, never mind the wider Parliament. The birth of this failure was written through with Tory like a rancid stick of rock. What happened subsequently involved petty politicking on all sides, which the FPTP system causes. But these were just symptoms of a Tory disease that has infected UK politics for decades; the battle between the pro and anti EU sides of their own party.

But you would rather choke on your own words than admit any of this. Because you've always been about attempting to spread the blame beyond those points where it deserves to reside. While ironically trying to paint yourself as a beacon of the reasonable centre. I suppose at least you can say you've been consistent, unlike the Brexit crew that have not just moved the goalposts, they've changed sports.

What the fuck?!?

Yes, parliament as a whole - every single one of them - be they Con, Lab, LD, SNP, Plaid, Green or what have you are responsible for this mess.

I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could read such a simple sentence as "...but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves." and think to themselves that this is somehow absolving the government of blame or how big the chip on their shoulder must be to deposit the above pile.

But just for you - THE TORIES ARE TO BLAME! AND THEY SUCK!

[Huehuecoyotl]

"...but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves."

"no-one to blame for this situation but themselves."

"no-one to blame but themselves."

I simply cannot comprehend how anyone could read such a simple sentence as "...but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves." and think to themselves that this is somehow absolving the government of blame

You are quite right. I can't begin to think how I came to such a conclusion. When it was SO clear from your statement that you actually meant that there were other people to blame as well. I'd forgotten that when you say something, you actually mean the complete opposite. Well, sometimes you do, when you get called out about something.

Can you just give us some hints next time about the way we need to interpret your words? Because reading them as English and responding accordingly seems to upset you.

[Noradin]

The European Union Withdrawal Bill automatically incorporates all existing EU law into UK law.

There were some exceptions, weren't there?

[Pann]

You are quite right. I can't begin to think how I came to such a conclusion. When it was SO clear from your statement that you actually meant that there were other people to blame as well. I'd forgotten that when you say something, you actually mean the complete opposite. Well, sometimes you do, when you get called out about something.

Can you just give us some hints next time about the way we need to interpret your words? Because reading them as English and responding accordingly seems to upset you.

Are you really trying to tell me I meant something other than parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves when I wrote "...but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves."?

It was a simple sentence, expressing my belief that parliament (this includes the government) are to blame for the current situation, there was no hidden meaning - no matter what you might want to believe.

[Noradin]

Are you really trying to tell me I meant something other than parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves when I wrote "...but quite honestly parliament have no-one to blame for this situation but themselves."?

It was a simple sentence, expressing my belief that parliament (this includes the government) are to blame for the current situation, there was no hidden meaning - no matter what you might want to believe.

Why not go one step further: The world has no one to blame for this situation but themselves.
(The world includes the tories that make up the UK government.)

[Jastall]

Well, yes, but Nigel is quite correct when he says that whatever option is taken (or not), someone, somewhere will have the hump.

I mean, welcome to polictics. There's never, ever been an unanimously beloved decision taken in any democracy.

The issue is that everyone in Parliament and beyond is so busy trying to cover their own asses from Brexit's inevitable fallout that none of them think of implementing a way to minimize or avert said fallout in the first place, lest more blame gets heaped up on them in the process. I've seen my share of irresponsible leadership, but the British political class is in the running for a new record right now.

[Pann]

I mean, welcome to polictics. There's never, ever been an unanimously beloved decision taken in any democracy.

The issue is that everyone in Parliament and beyond is so busy trying to cover their own asses from Brexit's inevitable fallout that none of them think of implementing a way to minimize or avert said fallout in the first place, lest more blame gets heaped up on them in the process. I've seen my share of irresponsible leadership, but the British political class is in the running for a new record right now.

Indeed but I think Brexit has taken it to whole new level.

I couldn't agree more.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the thing.

First, scale. Yes politics works as you describe this. But politicians should also understand exactly the stakes of what is being discussed at any point. At some point you need to consider stakes.
Second, division. Throughout the Brexit campaign, all we have seen is an escalation of language on both sides and demonizing of both sides. Brexiteers are morons and Remainers are Remoaners who hate democracy. That does not work. And you know, maybe it works BEFORE the referendum but after you see that the country is split evenly, then you need to focus on finding a compromise even if it is crappy compromise. The Remain side acted as if convinced they would manage to stop Brexit which made compromise impossible.
Ofc the Brexit side is far more fucked up than the Remain side, largely because their position is impossible outside a very soft Brexit. I think the only point when the public were asked in any way "What type of Brexit should we be doing" was during May's GE. And I am very unclear about what the message was back then; was it clear what May's red lines were? What Corbyn's red lines would be?

This is a very good post.

[Demolitia]

Ultimately this should have been about getting a few of the oldest people in parliament agreeing to just take this on their shoulders, find a compromise and then retire on it. Take one for the team.

As long as it's not Skinner. We need the quips.

[Pann]

Ultimately this should have been about getting a few of the oldest people in parliament agreeing to just take this on their shoulders, find a compromise and then retire on it. Take one for the team.

I think it is too late for that.

[Demolitia]

Here is the thing.

First, scale. Yes politics works as you describe this. But politicians should also understand exactly the stakes of what is being discussed at any point. At some point you need to consider stakes.
Second, division. Throughout the Brexit campaign, all we have seen is an escalation of language on both sides and demonizing of both sides. Brexiteers are morons and Remainers are Remoaners who hate democracy. That does not work. And you know, maybe it works BEFORE the referendum but after you see that the country is split evenly, then you need to focus on finding a compromise even if it is crappy compromise. The Remain side acted as if convinced they would manage to stop Brexit which made compromise impossible.
Ofc the Brexit side is far more fucked up than the Remain side, largely because their position is impossible outside a very soft Brexit. I think the only point when the public were asked in any way "What type of Brexit should we be doing" was during May's GE. And I am very unclear about what the message was back then; was it clear what May's red lines were? What Corbyn's red lines would be?

Well the remain side was a bit more united in its approach. You can say remain and carry on, or remain and push for reform, but it's ultimately remain.
When it comes to leaving, who knows who voted for what type of leaving, and whether they would still support Brexit if it comes to no deal.
I'm pretty sure the "What type of Brexit should we be doing" was addressed, and the answer was white, red and blue.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Well the remain side was a bit more united in its approach. You can say remain and carry on, or remain and push for reform, but it's ultimately remain.
When it comes to leaving, who knows who voted for what type of leaving, and whether they would still support Brexit if it comes to no deal.
I'm pretty sure the "What type of Brexit should we be doing" was addressed, and the answer was white, red and blue.

That amused me somewhat because the first three countries I think of when somebody says "red, white and blue" are France, Russia and The Netherlands (I don't think of the UK because the flag pattern is the Union Flag, not three banks of a particular colour).