The Brexit aftermath thread

[Jessicka]

That data is from the treasury. And is used by the leading left wing think tanks, left wing think tanks who are saying labour's policy's are mistargeted and won't help. They very article I took them from was written by and ex policy maker for Labour.....

Your confusing the wealth graph, that is a graph showing wealth growth against growth in tax on wealth. It has nothing to do with where that tax is being spent. It's showing that the wealth has grown but the taxes on it haven't. This is why the wealthy there money in assets like houses.

The argument of the resolution foundation is that labour's policy's sound nice on paper but they are targeting the wrong sectors and have alot of holes when applied to modern Britain.

Also non of these policy's are based on or work with the nordic model of socialism!


What corbyn is proposing is the old, dusty, soviet style socialism that's long since been shown to be incompatible with a globalised modern world.

Add on that labour wants to leave the eu and.....

Well, the majority of Labour membership wants to remain, but pragmatically, most of the country voted to Leave, so it's been judged to be only fair to offer a transparent Leave option.

Now on your list, aside from the things we already have...

An elaborate social safety net, in addition to public services such as free education and universal healthcare[13] in a largely tax-funded system.[14] - Yep, wants that, National Social Care Service being the big new.

High percentage of workers belonging to a labour union.[17] In 2013, labour union density was 88% in Iceland, 69% in Denmark, 67% in Sweden, 66% in Finland and 51% in Norway. In comparison, labour union density was 18% in Germany, 11% in the United States and 8% in France.[18] The lower union density in Norway is mainly explained by the absence of a Ghent system since 1938. In contrast, Denmark, Finland and Sweden all have union-run unemployment funds.[19] - Labour represents Unions, and would love to have greater Union representation, one of the big plays in Corbyn's speech was to repeal the anti-Union laws implemented by the Conservatives, and encourage Union membership.

The Nordic countries received the highest ranking for protecting workers rights on the International Trade Union Confederation's 2014 Global Rights Index, with Denmark being the only nation to receive a perfect score.[24] - Labour wants to protect, and enhance these rights. It was a key red line for them for any Brexit deal.

[Monster Hunter]

Well, the majority of Labour membership wants to remain, but pragmatically, most of the country voted to Leave, so it's been judged to be only fair to offer a transparent Leave option.

Now on your list, aside from the things we already have...

An elaborate social safety net, in addition to public services such as free education and universal healthcare[13] in a largely tax-funded system.[14] - Yep, wants that, National Social Care Service being the big new.

High percentage of workers belonging to a labour union.[17] In 2013, labour union density was 88% in Iceland, 69% in Denmark, 67% in Sweden, 66% in Finland and 51% in Norway. In comparison, labour union density was 18% in Germany, 11% in the United States and 8% in France.[18] The lower union density in Norway is mainly explained by the absence of a Ghent system since 1938. In contrast, Denmark, Finland and Sweden all have union-run unemployment funds.[19] - Labour represents Unions, and would love to have greater Union representation, one of the big plays in Corbyn's speech was to repeal the anti-Union laws implemented by the Conservatives, and encourage Union membership.

The Nordic countries received the highest ranking for protecting workers rights on the International Trade Union Confederation's 2014 Global Rights Index, with Denmark being the only nation to receive a perfect score.[24] - Labour wants to protect, and enhance these rights. It was a key red line for them for any Brexit deal.

2 of those things are probly the only things I think would work and there not really policy's one is something we mostly already have, schools free till uni and healthcare is free, the additions they want are the water and energy and transport, which I agree with but there are multiple problems with there specific strategy, first they want to buy the assets for under the market value with borrowed money, this is potentially anginst the law any way but aside from that it will likly I cure very high risk payments in those loans, next the list of stuff to be baught back isn't as extensive as they or there detractors claim, the energy buy back for example is only control of the grid, not the more tricky production and supply chains,and lädt we don't have a fiscal framework to account for the assets or the debt.

The other is just a promise not to fuck with the nordic country's workers which isn't something that going to make our life any better or worse so I don't know why its an election policy.

And the union thing is wishfull thinking, people don't join unions not because of the laws, people don't join them because we don't trust them, we had options in my last company to join a union and we collectively voted to decline. And when redundancy came some years later we nominated our own representatives from amongst us and negotiated several months of free wage and big cash pay outs perfectly fine without a union.

When you put all of that together with the rest of there policy's and then you read the critisim by left wing charity's and think tanks it's clear as day why Labour has gone into free fall in the polls again. Nothing they are proposing benefits the working class of 2019 once its put under scrutiny.

Compare that to the Lib Dems who are targeting wealth not earnings via things like the mansion tax. Which is what will actualy free up money from the top for those on the bottom, not I ly that they target specific issues we have the labour Completly ignores for the sake of show boating there outdated version of socialism. The lib Dems want to equalise mental health and physical health, by equalising funding bringing mental heath funding in line with the rest of the NHS and speeding up waiting times. Building 300,000 more house a year than now and investing in our road and rail infrastructure,

Target stuff like that that fixes our actual problems. Not giving those lucky enough to work at a big company a small % of shares that are capped at £500 income a year with the rest going to goverment.... That's a back door cash grab that will only dissuade company's from being headquartered in the UK and tempt the ones that are to leave. And is it really what we want to see, more people's incomes being dependant on which company they work for over how good there work is?

And then the bringing back of sectoral collective bargining.... Take the power away from me to demand my own wage.... Yea Labour can do one as far as I'm conserned and judging by how their now polling in 3rd place I'd say I'm far from alone on that.

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The only problem with your reasoning is that generally mansgement has no clue wtf the specialists are doing... You cant display an employee's skills on a graph, but you can easiy display their costs to the company.

It happens quite often that the most skilled employees are fired, because they have the highest wages.

The leadership of companies is not always actually competent enough to make the decisions that are best for the company. That is why companies come and go...

Yes but. 1. They can't just fire you in the UK or EU because you cost to much, you get made redundant and get a big cash payment.

2. It's a workers job market in skilled industry's so there's always avaliable high paying work, especially in IT. For example when El trumpet got elected the US company I worked for wanted to take all the work back the USA. So the office was made redundant. It took them 4 months to do that through negotiations in which we were banking free money then we all got 5 to 6 didget pay outs and every one of us walked into a new job the Monday after we left on the Friday.

Currently management incompitance is a danger only to the company because of the lack of skilled workers, And generous labour laws regarding redundancy.

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You are expendable. I can find another code monkey. You have massive delusions of grandeur.

And yes most corporations go through the motions of pretending they care about their workers: they don't. You are literally the only person I have ever encountered naive enough to believe it. It is like a chicken defending a fox.

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Generally speaking people are hired and fired on the basis of:

1) Whether they pose a threat to the person promoting them.
2) Whether the person promoting them would like to fuck them or not.
3) Connections such as nepotism, old school tie, religous or societal connections etc.
4) Whether they would actually enjoy working with that person.
5) Whether that person will cover for them, and in general be a malleable crawler.

The problems are essentially caused by the principal agent problem where the employee's value to the good of the company or the end product to the customer is skewed by placing an agent between the employee and those things who has differing interests.

You arn't a boss that is clear, if you are your share holders should sack you. But aside from that you should probly stop making soc accounts and sit out your ban like a good boi.

Also I don't think your even European because you can't just fire some one here.

[Jessicka]

So you basically unionised internally, rather than joined a union? That's okay. You'd probably have been stronger and better represented by a union though. Problem is, years of Tory governments, and indeed the last Labour government distancing itself from unions, and the toxicity built up against them has had a huge impact on perceptions. Especially since the 80s.

I'm in a union at work, most people are, and they've done an okay job negotiating with our employers. At a previous job, my ex got union assistance over bullying and harassment, which really helped her out (she is bipolar), and the issues at hand and laws involved were way beyond her. In the end, those doing the harassing were the ones who were moved on, rather than her be forced out; because they knew what they were doing. So I really don't think they deserve the rap they get.

And you don't think raising the top level of income tax, putting employees on company boards to keep down bonuses and distribute pay better, are hitting the top end?

Labour also want to improve mental health funding and decrease waiting times. They want to build more affordable homes as well, but honestly, 300k a year is simply not realistic, there aren't enough people, land or materials to do it. It's like Boris's ridiculous insistent on 20,000 new police, who have a 10% rate of passing the course; so needs 200,000 people apply; then who the fuck is going to actually train them? It's lala land promises, like revoking, that they'll never actually have to deliver.

There's a risk Labour would actually be called on them, so they need to be pragmatic.

[Monster Hunter]

So you basically unionised internally, rather than joined a union? That's okay. You'd probably have been stronger and better represented by a union though. Problem is, years of Tory governments, and indeed the last Labour government distancing itself from unions, and the toxicity built up against them has had a huge impact on perceptions. Especially since the 80s.

I'm in a union at work, most people are, and they've done an okay job negotiating with our employers. At a previous job, my ex got union assistance over bullying and harassment, which really helped her out (she is bipolar), and the issues at hand and laws involved were way beyond her. In the end, those doing the harassing were the ones who were moved on, rather than her be forced out; because they knew what they were doing. So I really don't think they deserve the rap they get.

And you don't think raising the top level of income tax, putting employees on company boards to keep down bonuses and distribute pay better, are hitting the top end?

Labour also want to improve mental health funding and decrease waiting times. They want to build more affordable homes as well, but honestly, 300k a year is simply not realistic, there aren't enough people, land or materials to do it. It's like Boris's ridiculous insistent on 20,000 new police, who have a 10% rate of passing the course; so needs 200,000 people apply; then who the fuck is going to actually train them? It's lala land promises, like revoking, that they'll never actually have to deliver.

There's a risk Labour would actually be called on them, so they need to be pragmatic.

I think the main problem with the perception of unions comes from the actions of scargill, having spoken to alot of older guys at the local working men's clubs in town the general feeling I get when they talk about that time is feeling both betrayed and used by the scargill for his own political ends, I didn't help that the unions engaged in alot of bullying during that time and that's left a legacy that's not easy to remove.
I always rember my dad singing this


And that in its self made me wary of unions from a young age.

Problem with taxing income is there's Alot of ways round it, its an old fashioned look at how to tax the rich but the rich don't make most of there cash through annual salery's l. To get at them you need to go after there wealth not earnings. As pointed out in the breakdown, we also already tax them heavily and they already dodge it well enough. Which is why I want to see mansion taxes. And multiple home taxes.

The 10% buissness ownership is another sounds good on paper but in practise it comes with alot of problems, first it incentives company's to keep under the 250 staff limit. Then it further increases the disparity of pay between top and bottom company's in a sector negstivly impacting competition as a workers wage top up will depend on the company. Then there's the fact the bonus income is capped at £500 with labour taking the rest which analasys shows will often end up with the goverment making more than the worker out of this. And then there's the fact that 10% of a company even if all workers vote the same way isn't enough to have any effect on how a company is run or its direction. Then Finaly you add on that this policy would cost the current share holders billions over night as they need to create more shares and devalue any large company that's what's to be based from the UK..... Its easy to see why large company's will want to leave and new ones won't want to come here.

You add all that together and what looks on paper like a nice thing, in reality has alot of draw back and ultimately only benefits the luck few who work for large company's based in the UK.

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You'll find a lot of these people below management level. Essentially they act like socialists and unionize, and when they speak about their working life they are essentially left-wing as you can get.

However, when it comes to broader politics they are heavily brainwashed by the media. So you got this type of logically inconsistent bullshit where they make nonsenical arguments directly contradicting their own actual actions and interests because socialism is bad and Corbyn is the devil: it must be true because that is what it says in the Telegraph.

It is kind of a waste of time talking to them because they are making arbitrary rationalizations based on the suggestion of authority figures and tribal identity.

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*Sigh*.

A business that floats is owned by its shareholders, by definition it does not have an owner for them to sack. Most businesses in this country are owned by the people that set them up, as in my case.

What you are thinking of is a CEO or chief executive officer. The CEO is the most important employee in an organization, but they are still an employee. The fact that you can't even conceive of not being under someone else says a lot about how easy it is to manipulate someone like you.

What you just said has no baring in what I said. If your a boss with direct control of employee's then you likly have shareholders above you or investors dicks to suck, if not you irrelevent to the day to day or your company's so small its irrelevent or your just a money man play acting and isn't let near the important decisions.

But I doubt your any of those based on your behaviour. For some one who says he owns a Company to be making soc accounts because someone you think of as inferior annoyed you in the Internet shows clearly you don't have the temperament to run a bath let alone a buissness.

[Jessicka]

LOL at BJ today.

Dismissing MPs safety concerns as "humbug". Saying Jo Cox's memory was best served by getting Brexit done.

Literally, he is fomenting violence.

Not lol. One of his sturm abteilung went to try to attack Jess Philips constituency office.

I’ve been saying for a long time for people who keep saying “it’s incitement, bad things wil happen”. Bad things are already happening and have been happening a long time. Jo Cox was just the worst of it so far.

[AeneasBK]

People catching up to me already?

Didn't take long.

[Forogil]

The Nordic countries received the highest ranking for protecting workers rights on the International Trade Union Confederation's 2014 Global Rights Index, with Denmark being the only nation to receive a perfect score.[24] - Labour wants to protect, and enhance these rights. It was a key red line for them for any Brexit deal.

Having Denmark as an example of workers right is quite interesting.

Managers can (and do) easily fire people in Denmark - in contrast to many other countries; but there are other protections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity

Is that really what Labour is going for? It seems way too sane.

[Jessicka]

BJ, Cummings & co. are now recklessly pursing a course of action that *will* result in FURTHERbloodshed. This is not an exaggeration. I'm very happy to say, on a public forum, that my milkshakes are now fully sharpened.

#NoCTDWaitroseDayOfRage

Fun, fun, fun.

Corrected that for you. Can we stop pretending the violence hasn’t already started. It’s not something that might happen. It is happening. They already started.

[dribbles]

The former Prime Minister accused Mr Johnson planning to exploit a loophole to bypass the law and force through a no-deal Brexit. He added the Tory party will use a piece of legal "chicanery" to bypass the rebel Bill forcing him to go for an extension to the October 31 deadline.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...neral-election

Oh dear, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it looks like John Major has admitted its game over for remainers.

[dribbles]

I'm interested, Mr D - what, exactly, do you think will happen in the event of a No Deal Brexit? And I'm not referring to practicalities surrounding the import and export of salads from Spain.

Do you honestly think that people like me and others of a similar ilk are just going to roll over? Is this conflict something you really want?

If you support democracy you will endorse a campaign to rejoin the EU, if it still exists, when the next UK referendum occurs on it in 40 years time.

A handful of remainers might march around Trafalgar square flinging the odd milkshake at the pigeons but other than that, I can't quite see what on earth you will do.

[Jessicka]

I'm interested, Mr D - what, exactly, do you think will happen in the event of a No Deal Brexit? And I'm not referring to practicalities surrounding the import and export of salads from Spain.

Do you honestly think that people like me and others of a similar ilk are just going to roll over? Is this conflict something you really want?

Police cars will burn I guess.

I’ll be too sick thanks to medicine shortages to take part though.

[Demolitia]

I’ll be too sick thanks to medicine shortages to take part though.

Yeah same I went to pick up some medication today and it was unavailable, I feel your pain hun and all my best wishes are going to be with you during these dark times.

I'm not entirely sure how this works, but before brexit actually happens -should it come to this- if you can get a medical prescription for purchasing medication abroad, I'm pretty sure many people on this forum, myself included, would be happy to help and dhl it to you. Don't hesitate to pm if needed.

[Demolitia]

Thank for the offer, I'm willing to accept the consequences of not getting my medications I just hope the Brexiteers are.

Brexiteer or not, I don't think anybody should be unavailable to get the medicine they need as a consequence of this farce.

[Jessicka]

Thank for the offer, I'm willing to accept the consequences of not getting my medications I just hope the Brexiteers are.

They’ll say I deserve it, and they’ll blame the EU.

[LeGin Tufnel]

@Demolitia that's a kind and thoughtful offer. if I or anyone I know ever need, I'll keep it in mind. Thank you.

[Huehuecoyotl]

If you support democracy you will endorse a campaign to rejoin the EU, if it still exists, when the next UK referendum occurs on it in 40 years time.

A handful of remainers might march around Trafalgar square flinging the odd milkshake at the pigeons but other than that, I can't quite see what on earth you will do.

If you really supported democracy, you would have been horrified at the lies and lawbreaking carried out by the Leave campaign to subvert it during the referendum. But you don't actually care about it at all. You just want to use that as a shield to protect the fact that you "won". Even though those voting Leave had no idea what they were voting for. Even though the Leave campaign told voters whatever they wanted to hear about the unicorns and sunlit uplands they were going to get. None of that matters in your quest for the fascist wet dream that you see Brexit leading to.

But you've put you money on Boris now. And he's batting 0 for 7 at the moment (8 if you include the battering he took in the court). You honestly think he's capable of navigating the narrow path of lawlessness and chicanery that might lead to no-deal? You trust this man with a record of lies and self-serving to get you what you want regardless of what it costs him personally?

I'm still betting on us still being in the EU on November 1st. And I'm still hopeful that parties that aren't led by right-wing idiots will do well enough in the GE to put this to bed before too much longer. The sooner we can put this behind us, the sooner we can start fixing the genuine problems in this country, rather than the imagined issues of the rascist right-wing.

Keep on with your ticks and tocks. They will just make it that much sweeter when your dream dies.

[Northern Goblin]

The former Prime Minister accused Mr Johnson planning to exploit a loophole to bypass the law and force through a no-deal Brexit. He added the Tory party will use a piece of legal "chicanery" to bypass the rebel Bill forcing him to go for an extension to the October 31 deadline.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...neral-election

Oh dear, sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it looks like John Major has admitted its game over for remainers.

That would get quashed in court faster than you can say "Do or die"

Acts of Parliament supersede such orders.

Plus at this rate if they continue to bluster, you'll likely see the Commons ramp up pressure further, by forcing the PM to commit to a specified date with regards to when he must seek the extension on.

Considering what Parliament could get done in a matter of days the last time Johnson tried to subvert the will of the Commons, imagine a month of legislature being thrown at him forcing him to comply with the law.

Assuming he isn't thrown out sooner for his violent inciting rhetoric.

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I'm not entirely sure how this works, but before brexit actually happens -should it come to this- if you can get a medical prescription for purchasing medication abroad, I'm pretty sure many people on this forum, myself included, would be happy to help and dhl it to you. Don't hesitate to pm if needed.

On a more positive note, this is an awesome thing to offer, kudos.

[Demolitia]

@Demolitia that's a kind and thoughtful offer. if I or anyone I know ever need, I'll keep it in mind. Thank you.

I know right now a doc in the UK can issue a prescription that's valid in another member state. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but it seems to be possible in theory.
I don't know that it will work post brexit.
That being said, you could go to a french hospital, post brexit, and they will treat you, give you a diagnosis and prescription, and send you the bill afterwards if they feel like it.
I am french, but living/working abroad so I don't fall under the french social security scheme. Whenever I have to go, if it's for something small, they don't charge me because the administrative burden to write a comprehensive medical report acceptable to insurances and issue an invoice is costing them more than what I would have to pay (they don't take credit cards ...).
I imagine if they send you a bill and you don't pay, they'd just waive it after a couple of years and write it off as an operating loss unless it's a 2.5 millions genetical therapy treatment.
So if you're really in a pickle you can take the eurostar and try your luck across the pond.
In the meantime, don't hesitate to contact me if you're experiencing shortages now already.

[Jessicka]

I'm not entirely sure how this works, but before brexit actually happens -should it come to this- if you can get a medical prescription for purchasing medication abroad, I'm pretty sure many people on this forum, myself included, would be happy to help and dhl it to you. Don't hesitate to pm if needed.

Fantastic offer, I do have friends and relatives abroad though so I’d be able to find ways and means metaphorically closer to home.

[Demolitia]

On a more positive note, this is an awesome thing to offer, kudos.

It depends on the volume and the type of medicine of course. I can't shell out a 20k euros batch of interferon across Europe in refrigerated environment, but for stuff that just requires me to go to the pharmacy, and walk across the square to the post office to ship, sure.
I'm not offering to save the world.