The Brexit aftermath thread

[Slant]

Now I don't want to remove people's right to vote and I don't want to remove the democratic but of our system, but what I do want is recognition that certain things are not for the will of the majority to remove, it should not have been legal for the people to remove my citizenship to European Union. Its contrary to the UN human right of self determination. The primary objective of any system that has democratic elements should be to limit those elements ability to infringe on the rights and privileges of individuals, as such Brexit is a huge faliur of our system to safeguard the individual against the will of the majority.

The discussion ought not to be about democracy, it ought about information. Democracy as an idea and a concept is fine. But it relies on good information input for people to make proper informed decisions. Brexit shows how far you can take it if you ignore decency and just lie your ass off. It's pure propaganda, there is zero truth behind it, zero gain for anyone but the ones spreading propaganda and surrounding themselves with willing henchmen that hope to profit from the crumbs falling off the big boy table.

The underlying problem is the modern form of illiteracy. We have eliminated illiteracy almost completely in western democracies, but with the internet and the massive flood of information, people are suffering from a new kind of illiteracy where they cannot distinguish bullshit from important information. The Murdoch media is exploiting this in that they flood your senses with all kinds of bullshit nonsense and the few important bits get drowned out. We've now reached a point where the mass population is almost oversaturated and can't be bothered anymore. This is the beginning of Idiocracy. There is no immediate fix to this, because free speech generally prevents any quick fixes. So we will have to endure, hope nothing gets damaged permanently and fix this through education. People need to be made aware of this and things like Murdoch media needs to be shunned by society itself.

[Jessicka]

It's a very deep disscusion about democracy that needs to be had, we need to remember that democracy in this form hasn't been around for a long time, original democracy was tied to the idea of citizenship and citizenship wasn't a birth right for most people, in the UK 90% of men only got the vote in 1918 and women only got it in 1921 so we haven't had that long in the grand scheme of things to see how our system works with universal suffrage, 100 years is nothing when looking at that sort of thing considering that during that time we have only had 1 major national crisis (ww2) in which our way around it was easentialy to suspend democracy with a goverment of national unity. This is really the first proper test of our system under stress with universal suffrage, and I'm afraid to say it is clearly failing.

Now I don't want to remove people's right to vote and I don't want to remove the democratic but of our system, but what I do want is recognition that certain things are not for the will of the majority to remove, it should not have been legal for the people to remove my citizenship to European Union. Its contrary to the UN human right of self determination. The primary objective of any system that has democratic elements should be to limit those elements ability to infringe on the rights and privileges of individuals, as such Brexit is a huge faliur of our system to safeguard the individual against the will of the majority.

Most of these issues stem from the honesty and integrity of the press. Our press isn’t actually free, given it’s mostly run by oligarchs. That needs fixing. The Press Complaints Commission should have fixed that longer ago than the phone hacking scandal, but that too isn’t independent either, because it’s just a self-regulatory body, which just lets the press be “free” to do what the media corps owners want.

It shows how deeply influential it is while people are still harping on about straightness of bananas.

The BBC is supposed to be impartial to get around that, but that too is both in hock with the government because funding, and obliged to report on whatever other media is reporting, which just adds exposure to those other channels and their agendas.

It needs fixing and legislating before we end up like Australia where Murdoch is basically deciding what’s news and calling the shots.

That wasn't a good thing imo, We shouldn't have opted out or vetoed most of that stuff. I'll happily be the first to say Britain has been total shits to the EU ever since we joined and we should take the blame for alot of the problems with the EU because our cold feet over everything has in part driven them to this current state, I mean take for axample shengan and the euro, in hindsight opening boarders befor equalising the economy across Europe with federal banking was a mistake, naturally people were going to move from the poor nations to the richer ones en mass, this has only fueled the old "dem Polish tuk ur jobs" bullshit but also ment Eastern European nations lack the workers to uplift there economy's. But the reason they went with shengan to soon is because we Britain have been fighting against every small step to the idea of uniting our currency and economy as part of the ever closer union.

We have without a doubt been sapotaging the union project ever since we joined and that shouldn't be seen as a good thing.

Sure, this is why a lot of Europeans would like to see us out. I was in Sweden shortly before the vote and met a couple of people who were desperate for us to leave so they could stop being blocked on building the European project.

If we stay and end up opting out of things, I think 20 years down the line, actually maybe this whole shambles will have done what it’s done for most of the rest of Europe and given people a more positive light on it, and we’ll be able to shift further in that direction of closer unity.

Maybe the tax laws will fuck these billionaires off to fuck up somewhere else.

We can still hope.

[Slant]

I think the more pertinent fact is that modern democracies are REPRESENTATIVE and not DIRECT. People should understand what that means and understand that they are picking people to represent their interests to the technocracy that is keeping everything working which means among other things that they need people that have the basic competencies required to interface with technocrats in a fruitful way. No amount of information is ever going to make the people able to make informed decisions about policy.

They need to make people informed enough to be able to tell when their representative is full of shit. I mean, let's be honest, you don't need to know anything about the EU or the US to know that Brexit and Trump are full of shit. That's just common sense. I'm all for allowing outside the box thinking and going new ways, but these two situations are not outside the box, they're OBVIOUS and BLATANT attempts to damage their respective nations.

And let's not forget that the only one gaining from this is Russia, China and Murdoch.

[Monster Hunter]

The discussion ought not to be about democracy, it ought about information. Democracy as an idea and a concept is fine. But it relies on good information input for people to make proper informed decisions. Brexit shows how far you can take it if you ignore decency and just lie your ass off. It's pure propaganda, there is zero truth behind it, zero gain for anyone but the ones spreading propaganda and surrounding themselves with willing henchmen that hope to profit from the crumbs falling off the big boy table.

The underlying problem is the modern form of illiteracy. We have eliminated illiteracy almost completely in western democracies, but with the internet and the massive flood of information, people are suffering from a new kind of illiteracy where they cannot distinguish bullshit from important information. The Murdoch media is exploiting this in that they flood your senses with all kinds of bullshit nonsense and the few important bits get drowned out. We've now reached a point where the mass population is almost oversaturated and can't be bothered anymore. This is the beginning of Idiocracy. There is no immediate fix to this, because free speech generally prevents any quick fixes. So we will have to endure, hope nothing gets damaged permanently and fix this through education. People need to be made aware of this and things like Murdoch media needs to be shunned by society itself.

But that's been a problem as old as democracy, I mean plato pointed it out with his sweet shop owner vs doctor scenario in the Republic. People just tend to vote for the person who promises them what they want not what they need.

[dribbles]

Maybe the tax laws will fuck these billionaires off to fuck up somewhere else.

We can still hope.

Those billionaires will be paying a quarter of all income tax in the UK and 90% of all income tax revenue is paid by the top half of earners. We need to attract more billionaires rather than fuck them off as you put it. If these top earners leave the UK the only people who will get fucked are the poor.

Brexit and the lowering of general taxation as a result will protect poor people, not the other way around. Brexit is for the many not the few.

Just a small correction.

[Acidbaron]

They need to make people informed enough to be able to tell when their representative is full of shit. I mean, let's be honest, you don't need to know anything about the EU or the US to know that Brexit and Trump are full of shit. That's just common sense. I'm all for allowing outside the box thinking and going new ways, but these two situations are not outside the box, they're OBVIOUS and BLATANT attempts to damage their respective nations.

And let's not forget that the only one gaining from this is Russia, China and Murdoch.

There are also simply people who believe this is a good idea, seems far fetched by those people are out there. Remember that even before the second world war that Hitler was considered to be a viable choice as an ally by plenty. In hindsight we all know better but some people need to see the piles of corpses before they acknowledge that.

[Jessicka]

Those billionaires will be paying a quarter of all income tax in the UK and 90% of all income tax revenue is paid by the top half of earners. We need to attract more billionaires rather than fuck them off as you put it. If these top earners leave the UK the only people who will get fucked are the poor.

Brexit and the lowering of general taxation as a result will protect poor people, not the other way around. Brexit is for the many not the few.

Just a small correction.

When the fuck did the Tories ever protect the poor? 125,000 are already dead because of their austerity. Did you know that tax breaks for the rich offset more money than the welfare bill? That's effectively welfare for the rich. Nevermind avoidance loopholes.

When the IRA blew up Manchester in '96, the Tory government gave us £450k to rebuild. The EU gave us £21.5m. Why the fuck would you want to back this lot of lying, self-serving bastards?

Are you one of these billionaires? At best what they're promising is to dial back what they've been taking away for over a decade. That's not offering anything new, or better.

[Temp name]

Those billionaires will be paying a quarter of all income tax in the UK and 90% of all income tax revenue is paid by the top half of earners. We need to attract more billionaires rather than fuck them off as you put it. If these top earners leave the UK the only people who will get fucked are the poor.

Brexit and the lowering of general taxation as a result will protect poor people, not the other way around. Brexit is for the many not the few.

Just a small correction.

Trickle down economics doesn't work, don't try to pretend it does

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At this point, if the EU grants another fucking extension, I'm starting to think the British parliament isn't the most incompetent group anymore...

They've already said they will.

If the EU doesn't give it, they'll be seen as the bad guys, granting extensions and letting the UK basically kill themselves will make the EU look better, and the UK look worse.

It also increases the odds that they'll get a PM bold enough to actually pull out, or retract A50

[dribbles]

When the fuck did the Tories ever protect the poor? 125,000 are already dead because of their austerity. Did you know that tax breaks for the rich offset more money than the welfare bill? That's effectively welfare for the rich. Nevermind avoidance loopholes.

When the IRA blew up Manchester in '96, the Tory government gave us £450k to rebuild. The EU gave us £21.5m. Why the fuck would you want to back this lot of lying, self-serving bastards?

Are you one of these billionaires? At best what they're promising is to dial back what they've been taking away for over a decade. That's not offering anything new, or better.

Tories protect the poor by keeping and attracting the rich into the UK and paying their taxes. Where do you think your welfare comes from? The magic money tree?

Brexit and the lowering of taxes will encourage the wealthy, who can choose to pay their tax anywhere, to stay.

Here is where your benefits come from, not the EU.

[Jessicka]

Tories protect the poor by keeping and attracting the rich into the UK and paying their taxes. Where do you think your welfare comes from? The magic money tree?

Brexit and the lowering of taxes will encourage the wealthy, who can choose to pay their tax anywhere, to stay.

Here is where your benefits come from, not the EU.

I'm in full employment, I even have to pay my £11 a month being chronically ill tax for my prescriptions. Sadly, I don't get benefits.

Truth is, Sugar can afford to pay a lot more. A lot, lot more. Collecting money is a fucking game for him and his ilk, he's like a goddamn dragon protecting his hoard. He won't actually miss another £50m. He pays the absolute minimum to keep the likes of me from his mansion with pitchforks and torches.

Meanwhile, what's his rebate on that cheque? Probably most of that value. The EU want to make sure he actually pays his dues. I don't honestly believe he thinks he owes anything, in spite of that money going towards infrastructure and a healthy population to which to sell his wares so he can generate more.

They're worse than leeches. At least leeches drop off when they've had their fill, these fuckers always want more, even though they have no idea what to do with it.

Do you honestly believe you'll ever have enough to owe that much in taxes? Nevermind simply have that much pass through your hands in your lifetime?

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Trickle down economics doesn't work, don't try to pretend it does

I don't think anyone pretends it does anymore, they usually pretty free in admitting that the whole structure is engineered to funnel wealth upwards.

[Monster Hunter]

I'm in full employment, I even have to pay my £11 a month being chronically ill tax for my prescriptions. Sadly, I don't get benefits.

Truth is, Sugar can afford to pay a lot more. A lot, lot more. Collecting money is a fucking game for him and his ilk, he's like a goddamn dragon protecting his hoard. He won't actually miss another £50m. He pays the absolute minimum to keep the likes of me from his mansion with pitchforks and torches.

Meanwhile, what's his rebate on that cheque? Probably most of that value. The EU want to make sure he actually pays his dues. I don't honestly believe he thinks he owes anything, in spite of that money going towards infrastructure and a healthy population to which to sell his wares so he can generate more.

They're worse than leeches. At least leeches drop off when they've had their fill, these fuckers always want more, even though they have no idea what to do with it.

Do you honestly believe you'll ever have enough to owe that much in taxes? Nevermind simply have that much pass through your hands in your lifetime?

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I don't think anyone pretends it does anymore, they usually pretty free in admitting that the whole structure is engineered to funnel wealth upwards.

Aye they should lay there dues and more some, but the reality is we don't live in the 1940s any more, the rich live where they can pay the least and untill we find out a decent solution to that problem globalism has created, a way to keep them from just upping sticks to a carabean island and changing there citizenship, I'd rather keep getting his 40 mil than nothing off him. It's a balancing act we need to play, get just enough out of them that it won't scare them away and leave us with 0. That also why old fashioned socialism dosnt and won't work, modern socialism trys to link in and be friendly to the rich because we can't trap them anymore.

[Northern Goblin]

People still trying to sell trickle down as viable in 2019 need to be sent back to compulsory economics class at personal expense.

So the question is what happens at the upcoming summit regarding Johnson complying with the law, all his bluff and bluster is well and good but ultimately pointless when Parliament has his balls in their grasp.

[dribbles]

I'm in full employment, I even have to pay my £11 a month being chronically ill tax for my prescriptions. Sadly, I don't get benefits.

Truth is, Sugar can afford to pay a lot more. A lot, lot more. Collecting money is a fucking game for him and his ilk, he's like a goddamn dragon protecting his hoard. He won't actually miss another £50m. He pays the absolute minimum to keep the likes of me from his mansion with pitchforks and torches.

Meanwhile, what's his rebate on that cheque? Probably most of that value. The EU want to make sure he actually pays his dues. I don't honestly believe he thinks he owes anything, in spite of that money going towards infrastructure and a healthy population to which to sell his wares so he can generate more.

They're worse than leeches. At least leeches drop off when they've had their fill, these fuckers always want more, even though they have no idea what to do with it.

Do you honestly believe you'll ever have enough to owe that much in taxes? Nevermind simply have that much pass through your hands in your lifetime?

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I don't think anyone pretends it does anymore, they usually pretty free in admitting that the whole structure is engineered to funnel wealth upwards.

Sure he can afford more, but he could also do as Gerard Depardieu did to the EU when they tried to take too much. He could piss off from the UK and pay much less too. Brexit and the lowering of taxes will incentivise him and others like him to stay, not do a Depardieu from the UK...

Did you see the proposed abolishment of Inheritance Tax by the Tories yesterday? Precisely this type of policy keeps beans on the table of the poor.

Bring on that Brexit inspired Singapore on Thames in just a few days time and let the poor rejoice...

[nRes]

If the EU doesn't give it, they'll be seen as the bad guys, granting extensions and letting the UK basically kill themselves will make the EU look better, and the UK look worse.

If they give it they'll be seen as the bad guys too, except it will be in the eyes of the citizens of the EU. You know they are supposed to protect our interests right? All this talk about protecting the interests of the EU member states, yet they keep supplicating to british parliament.

This is a terrible argument, by the way. The EU will be seen as the bad guys by Brexiteers regardless of what they do, that's not going to change. I think at this point the EU is trying to save the UK from it's own incompetence, which is actually sad because they can't. They can't because as long as there are tens of millions of people on that island who want to leave the EU, the Brexit sentiment will be ever persistent.

It's not that I want them to leave or to get kicked out. It's that they need to leave, because if they remain they'll always be a bi-polar country and having a core member with such a huge anti-EU sentiment will serve to undermine the whole EU project. I thought this much would've become obvious to Brussels after the past couple of years, but I guess they know better than me. Let's hope they're right...

[Flarelaine]

Did you see the proposed abolishment of Inheritance Tax by the Tories yesterday? Precisely this type of policy keeps beans on the table of the poor.

Another Tory policy that benefits the rich disproportionately.

[Jessicka]

Sure he can afford more, but he could also do as Gerard Depardieu did to the EU when they tried to take too much. He could piss off from the UK and pay much less too. Brexit and the lowering of taxes will incentivise him and others like him to stay, not do a Depardieu from the UK...

Did you see the proposed abolishment of Inheritance Tax by the Tories yesterday? Precisely this type of policy keeps beans on the table of the poor.

Bring on that Brexit inspired Singapore on Thames in just a few days time and let the poor rejoice...

Lack of Inheritance tax is exactly what keeps this country from being anything resembling a meritocracy.

It keeps wealth in the hands of the few, and ensures their heirs maintain their wealth, power, and capacity to hoard yet more. Abolition of it is fucking feudal. But that’s the point, isn’t it.

Getting rid of it does precisely the opposite of what you say.

The Laffer curve is as debunked as trickle down economics itself.

[Twdft]

People still trying to sell trickle down as viable in 2019 need to be sent back to compulsory economics class at personal expense

Something's trickling down alright, it just isn't money.

[Jessicka]

EU Parliament verdict is in. “Not even remotely acceptable”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...box=1570108094

[ranzino]

so what now: back to homework for Boris and come again in 2 weeks ?

[draykorinee]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...Elm9cDrIUPe950

96% of the time facial recognition gets it wrong on criminals.

And this is the stuff that is meant to take the place of a hard border according to that idiot Boris.