The Brexit aftermath thread

[Mayhem]

Thank you for the link. It is an interesting read.



As I understand it exceptions would go against the most favoured nation rules unless they were part of a bilateral agreement. As I said I am not suggesting that this should or would happen.

As far as the quotes in the Link I've just posted go, no, that would go against WTO rules for free trade unions.

[Pann]

As far as the quotes in the Link I've just posted go, no, that would go against WTO rules for free trade unions.

The link is talking about trading under WTO rules. If you are trading as part of a bilateral agreement, a FTA, then you are free to enforce borders as you see fit.

[dribbles]

There are 4 solutions to the NI border.

1. The UK stays in the EU.
2. The UK stays in the EEA.
3. The UK stays in the CU.
4. The border moves to the Irish sea, NI has freedom to remain in the EU, EEA or CU.

1 goes against the referendum, 2 and 3 go against the self-interests of Tory MPs and Theresa May can't do 4 because she sold out to the DUP. More than anynother body it is the Tory party that are willing to throw NI under the bus for personal or party gain.

Actually 4 was made illegal in one of the recent brexiteer amendments passed through parliament, however it would still be legal for Ireland to leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom. That would solve the border issue.

[Pannonian]

Actually 4 was made illegal in one of the recent brexiteer amendments passed through parliament, however it would still be legal for Ireland to leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom. That would solve the border issue.

And how would you try to convince the Irish to commit economical suicide?

[Mayhem]

The link is talking about trading under WTO rules. If you are trading as part of a bilateral agreement, a FTA, then you are free to enforce borders as you see fit.

Well but that would place the UK under ECJ because they can't have a bilateral agreement only with ROI.

[zealo]

Actually 4 was made illegal in one of the recent brexiteer amendments passed through parliament, however it would still be legal for Ireland to leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom. That would solve the border issue.

In what fantasy land is there even a slightest chance the Irish would find the idea of rejoining the UK acceptable?

[Pann]

Well but that would place the UK under ECJ because they can't have a bilateral agreement only with ROI.

This has nothing to do with anything I have written. Quite literally nothing. And has already been pointed out to you it is not even accurate.

To be quite honest I think we should leave this here.

[Dhrizzle]

I agree with your solutions. There is also 5. The EU grants various exceptions to the Irish border. Before I get jumped on I am not saying that the EU should do this.

As the UK is the one creating a situation where the NI border becomes a problem I was only listing things that are within the power of the UK government. It seems silly to create a problem and expect others to find a solution.

All four go against the referendum it is not a Tory issue. You complain that the Tories are willing to throw NI under the bus whilst at the same time criticising them for not doing so when it suits the DUP?

Only the first one (stay in the EU) goes against the referendum, and the only reason we had a referendum was because a Tory prime minister used it to woo back voters who switched to UKIP.

The fourth is a bit more iffy as it possibly entails a fundamental change in the UK which means that in basest terms there may not be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to leave the EU.

[Mayhem]

This has nothing to do with anything I have written. Quite literally nothing. And has already been pointed out to you it is not even accurate.

To be quite honest I think we should leave this here.

That's because I misread your post, my bad.

[Nigel Tufnel]

As the UK is the one creating a situation where the NI border becomes a problem I was only listing things that are within the power of the UK government. It seems silly to create a problem and expect others to find a solution.

Silly Pann.

It's not as if the UK / Ireland border and associated troubles predate the EU itself. Oh... wait.

[Pann]

As the UK is the one creating a situation where the NI border becomes a problem I was only listing things that are within the power of the UK government. It seems silly to create a problem and expect others to find a solution.

Fair enough. There's no argument that Brexit has created the problem however the problem is not something that that UK can solve on its own. In an ideal world, yes, you are correct the party that caused the problem should be the one that rectifies it however we do not live in an ideal world and Brexit has created issues with Ireland that are exceedingly difficult to solve and if we are to move forward then it will take agreement with the EU.

Only the first one (stay in the EU) goes against the referendum, and the only reason we had a referendum was because a Tory prime minister used it to woo back voters who switched to UKIP.

The fourth is a bit more iffy as it possibly entails a fundamental change in the UK which means that in basest terms there may not be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to leave the EU.

I see where you're coming from but I don't think the argument holds water when it comes to public opinion with regard to what was expected from Brexit. Rightly or wrongly people will not accept the UK not completely leaving the EU. I don't think it takes much imagination to see how the likes of JRM would be able use either of these options to push his vassal state agenda and whip up even more anti-EU sentiment.

There certainly is some truth to what you say about the reasons behind calling the referendum but I think that somewhat oversimplifies the matter.

Part of the GFA was that we would respect the wishes of NI as to whether or not they remained part of the union if we were to take the fourth option (things would be much simpler) we would, IMO, be sailing very close to the wind in this regard. And there is also the issue that NI remaining in the EU, etc is seen by many as threat to British sovereignty. As far as I can see this is complete political non-starter.

That's because I misread your post, my bad.

We've all been guilty of that at some time or another. Thank you for your reply.

- - - Updated - - -

Silly Pann.

It's not as if the UK / Ireland border and associated troubles predate the EU itself. Oh... wait.

So what are you saying Nigel? Should we just sit around until the UK provides a solution to a problem it cannot solve on its own?

We can all point fingers at the UK but the reality is that the problems aren't going to go away.

[Nigel Tufnel]

So what are you saying Nigel? Should we just sit around until the UK provides a solution to a problem it cannot solve on its own?

We can all point fingers at the UK but the reality is that the problems aren't going to go away.

Yep, Pann - that's my point. It was directed at Dhrizzle.

[Pann]

Yep, Pann - that's my point. It was directed at Dhrizzle.

Ah. I see. Sorry I got the wrong end of the stick.

[Huehuecoyotl]

So what are you saying Nigel? Should we just sit around until the UK provides a solution to a problem it cannot solve on its own?

We can all point fingers at the UK but the reality is that the problems aren't going to go away.

The UK leaves the EU, but stays in the CU and SM, and stays under the remit of the ECJ. Referendum result satisfied (and don't give me the whole "that wasn't the intent of the vote....the vote said "do you want to stay in the EU?"). All within the scope of what the UK can do, and solves the problem of the Irish border entirely.

But the Tories would be damaged by that option, so they won't take it. They would rather damage the UK mainland, or Ireland. Or both.

The one side of this debate that CAN'T solve this is the EU. They are completely unable to offer any option that solves this that wouldn't irreparably damage the EU itself. Why the hell should they damage the club, just because one member wants to leave it?

[Slant]

The one side of this debate that CAN'T solve this is the EU. They are completely unable to offer any option that solves this that wouldn't irreparably damage the EU itself. Why the hell should they damage the club, just because one member wants to leave it?

Because the member asked nicely, of course.

[Kallisto]

Actually 4 was made illegal in one of the recent brexiteer amendments passed through parliament, however it would still be legal for Ireland to leave the EU and rejoin the United Kingdom. That would solve the border issue.

Sure would be legal.

But it would also be the same day the sun goes Nova on us and the end of all life as we know it.

[Pann]

The UK leaves the EU, but stays in the CU and SM, and stays under the remit of the ECJ. Referendum result satisfied (and don't give me the whole "that wasn't the intent of the vote....the vote said "do you want to stay in the EU?"). All within the scope of what the UK can do, and solves the problem of the Irish border entirely.

But the Tories would be damaged by that option, so they won't take it. They would rather damage the UK mainland, or Ireland. Or both.

The one side of this debate that CAN'T solve this is the EU. They are completely unable to offer any option that solves this that wouldn't irreparably damage the EU itself. Why the hell should they damage the club, just because one member wants to leave it?

Okay, I won't give any of that "it wasn't the intent of the vote". It still won't change the fact that remaining in the CU/SM or under the jurisdiction of the ECJ will not be acceptable to many British voters and therefore has no support from BOTH the Cons and Labour.

Yeah, of course it is. Which is why we see Corbyn continuously and at every opportunity pointing out that the UK should remain in the CU and SM. Oh, no. But we don't. Do we?! He says nothing because he knows doing so would damage Labour. Instead we get some wishy washy bullshit when Starmer gets caught out by Marr about A (the "A" is very important) Customs union which is not the same as The (the "the" is a very important distinction) Customs Union but really it is kinda the same.

If the EU cannot solve the issue with the UK that is understandable, disappointing but understandable nonetheless.

[Kiri]

Okay, I won't give any of that "it wasn't the intent of the vote". It still won't change the fact that remaining in the CU/SM or under the jurisdiction of the ECJ will not be acceptable to many British voters and therefore has no support from BOTH the Cons and Labour.

Yeah, of course it is. Which is why we see Corbyn continuously and at every opportunity pointing out that the UK should remain in the CU and SM. Oh, no. But we don't. Do we?! He says nothing because he knows doing so would damage Labour. Instead we get some wishy washy bullshit when Starmer gets caught out by Marr about A (the "A" is very important) Customs union which is not the same as The (the "the" is a very important distinction) Customs Union but really it is kinda the same.

If the EU cannot solve the issue with the UK that is understandable, disappointing but understandable nonetheless.

The UK should just hold another referendum. All cards on the table. Inform the population exactly and truthfully of the consequences of a hard Brexit, remaining in CU/SM, etc. Then let them pick. And no, I don't mean another leave or stay referendum. Just what the UK should have done in the very beginning, actually get a mandate for the kind of Brexit they wanted. The GE was an attempt at that, but that was a GE - and as such about a policy mix and personalities as much as it was about Brexit.

[dribbles]

Sure would be legal.

But it would also be the same day the sun goes Nova on us and the end of all life as we know it.

It is just as valid an option as the now illegal EU proposals to annex NI from the UK. The opposite of that is the UK proposes to annex a bit of the EU. Same difference but there's the conundrum.

As I have been saying for years now, no deal is the only option and let us hope they can solve it, despite threatening and aggressive behaviour from EU members that will in the end provoke a UK response, by just talking around the table.

That is the best the soppy remainers can now hope for, there was never any chance of a "soft brexit", whatever that was. Get used to it.

[Pann]

The UK should just hold another referendum. All cards on the table. Inform the population exactly and truthfully of the consequences of a hard Brexit, remaining in CU/SM, etc. Then let them pick. And no, I don't mean another leave or stay referendum. Just what the UK should have done in the very beginning, actually get a mandate for the kind of Brexit they wanted. The GE was an attempt at that, but that was a GE - and as such about a policy mix and personalities as much as it was about Brexit.

It can't. That is the simple truth. And even if this was a possibility there is no guarantee that anything would have changed since the last referendum.

I like your idea that the population should have all the information presented to them truthfully and accurately but how do you stop the likes of Farage or JRM? It's no good stating that if x happens it will result in y when good ol' Nige is sitting there, pint of Spitfire in hand, saying it is not true and everything will be wonderful.

I suspect (although it is more hope) that a situation is being engineered where the public is slowly but subtlety being exposed the realities of what no deal will look like and as a result the desire to halt Brexit is beginning to grow.