Nightborne - pros and cons of joining the race

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The biggest part of me screams "Holy fuck, no more elves please god no."

I assume the nightborne will not be playable, but they will will have night borne joining both sides. I do feel that the leadership, if Thallysra /Valtrois/Silgryn are the new leaders of Surumar, that they did lean closer to the blood elves just because of their similar interests and lifestyles and struggles. Despite her intentions, Tyrande came off as uncaring and judgmental, not the best first impression to potential allies. Top that off with the night elves calling Blood elves "mana addicts" as an insult right infront of the nightborne, combined once again with the absolutely shit eating insanity that is Vereesa windrunner, I assume that on a base level the opinion of the Sin'dorei is Higher. However the night elves cured them of the night well, and that can't be forgotten. So once again, I don't think they will be forced into either side, and will instead stick to themselves to find their place, with some joining the Horde and others the Alliance.

Did the night elfs cure them? Wasn't it that one Druid guy who sure is a night elf but not part of our faction?

[Aeula]

There's no reason they would have to move into darnassus or silvermoon they could stay in suamar it is smack dab in the middle after all. As to culture and all that I wouldn't really say the bloody elfs or the night elfs are like the nightborne sure bloody elfs also have a big city and a superiorly complex but that's about it and a lot of the night borne probably know people on both sides as tyranda said she was born there I think.

The nightborne story is almost the exact same as the blood elf one.

Mana addiction causing deformities, a well of immense power being the main source of feeding that addiction, a leader betraying the, and falling to the burning Legion, both finding an alternate source of power and being ‘redeemed’ etc...

[grexly75]

The biggest part of me screams "Holy fuck, no more elves please god no."

I assume the nightborne will not be playable, but they will will have night borne joining both sides. I do feel that the leadership, if Thallysra /Valtrois/Silgryn are the new leaders of Surumar, that they did lean closer to the blood elves just because of their similar interests and lifestyles and struggles. Despite her intentions, Tyrande came off as uncaring and judgmental, not the best first impression to potential allies. Top that off with the night elves calling Blood elves "mana addicts" as an insult right infront of the nightborne, combined once again with the absolutely shit eating insanity that is Vereesa windrunner, I assume that on a base level the opinion of the Sin'dorei is Higher. However the night elves cured them of the night well, and that can't be forgotten. So once again, I don't think they will be forced into either side, and will instead stick to themselves to find their place, with some joining the Horde and others the Alliance.

Which makes me think that if Blizz do make The Nightborne a playable race they may go the route with the Pandaren in MoP and leave it up to the player to decide what faction they join.. Since then you won't have the "hey that's not fair them getting that" tirade from the playerbase..

- - - Updated - - -

The nightborne story is almost the exact same as the blood elf one.

Mana addiction causing deformities, a well of immense power being the main source of feeding that addiction, a leader betraying the, and falling to the burning Legion, both finding an alternate source of power and being ‘redeemed’ etc...

It was being without sunlight and moonlight for 10000 years combined with living off the nightwell that turned them into what they became.. In the end if was a Nightelf Valewalker Farodin with player help that saved the Nightborne..

And they could become another faction similar to the Pandaren in MoP with having the player decide which faction they join..

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The nightborne story is almost the exact same as the blood elf one.

Mana addiction causing deformities, a well of immense power being the main source of feeding that addiction, a leader betraying the, and falling to the burning Legion, both finding an alternate source of power and being ‘redeemed’ etc...

There story is the same but not there culture. Blood elfs had things happen to them with the humans to drive them to the horde where night borne didnt have any problem like that. It would make little sense for the night. Borne to 100% join one faction and much more sense for individual night borne to join which ever they preferred like the pandas did.

[Pull My Finger]

There are cons?

[Dagoth Ur]

But, about night elves, I don't know why you think adding nightborne to them would do them any favors. To me, it seems like a lot of people want the night elves to be more like the ancient Kaldorei empire, so they forget that current night elf culture is the rejection of their imperial roots. They moved away from that, they shun that past, they forbade it for a long time. If you like that past more than their present, then you excited at the true heirs of the old traditions, the blood elves and nightborne, getting closer to one another. Night elves and nightborne may look alike, but their culture is nothing alike.

Night elves are not boring. I do think night elves need some attention, thought. Too much focus is given to the druids, which are neutral and, yes, boring. Were it up to me, I'd give the Sentinels, Priesthood of Elune and Wardens more attention. I'd make the shen'dralar have more presence, yes, but as the odd faction within the race. And I'd make the high elves get closer to the night elves and shen'dralar. But that's just my opinion.

This is basically it.

Whole point of WotA was that after the horrors of warring with Legion, which was lured to Azeroth by Well of Eternity - the enormous source of Arcane magic, night elves brought collective decision to reject their old arcane based lifestyle and embraced and developed new culture based on druidism.

That's why it doesn't make sense saying that Nightborne are some sort of missing part of Night elven society which completes them.
They represent culture that Night elves collectively rejected and moved forward from and that High elves/Blood elves decided to retain and why the split happened in the first place.
That's the exact reason why Nightborne are more similair to Blood elves in addition to more recent similarities with arcane addiction and their leader betraying them to Burning Legion.

Highborne being back doesn't mean Night elves are ready to become great arcane empire again, it just means that they recognize that Highborne are their people and it's them basically being a better person with accepting them back.

Imo night elves are far from boring, just all focus is given to Malfurion which is the biggest bore in Warcraft universe.
Like you said, I would love more focus on Watchers or Sentinels and trying to bring back Amazonian in night elves like it was emphasized in War3.

[Friendlyimmolation]

This actually make me laugh a lot that NEs kill anything that isn't a NE. Friend, for your information, they are the protectors of life and since the WotA they were allies of many protectors of Azeroth and to them life=life.

"Protectors of life that happen to agree with us, otherwise we'll kill you." The nightevles were never an overall benevolent force buddy, not sure why you try to be a revisionist about that.

rcs came to their land and began to cut down the trees (a living creature) and killed their wisps. And when the NE attacked the Orcs they clearly said that these green skins have no respect for life. This is their land, they protected it for 10 thousand years, it is sacred to them and now some outlanders invaded it and tried to destroy it and when the NE came they resisted till Cenarius himself showed up and Orcs used the demonic power to defeat him.

you mean that the first instinct they had was to immediately kill a humanoid rather than even let them know they were there? Protectors of life indeed, or do orcs not actually live?

But according to your logic, they should have probably negotiate with the new comers who invaded their lands, shouldn't they? It's just like Russia invade Alaska and steal the oil resource and US just try to negotiate with them rather send troops to push them out.

Such hilarious bullshittery from someone who sees night elves as victims from all angles. Your scenario only makes sense if Russia had no idea that Alaska was US territory, meaning that in your shitty attempt to drag real life into the equation that Russia and the US would have to had no idea of each other's existence.

Your statement can only be true when for example Orcs send a negotiator and the NEs kill him after they hear his words. If NEs would have killed anything which wasn't a NE, then all the dryads, keepers and dragons were their enemies not their allies.

you mean where Grom yelled at Cenarius that they followed no demon? Because the first communication the night elves that wasn't an arrow was a declaration that they would kill them all.

And once again another funny part was that you brought the same matter we were discussing at the beginning as an example. They are not even trying to make allies with the nightborne.

"My argument is great because I don't even know what I am talking about." Is that the jist of your stance right now? That the Nightborne should be equally friendly to the night elves for being a bunch of cold shoulder bastards that don't want to be their allies in the first place?

Trying to show NEs as morons will not make the BEs a great race. If you want to show the good aspects of your favorite race try to come up with something good related to them, like how they turned their back on Kael'thas and decided not to follow his dark path and later even fought against him.

The night elves have been morons, and thrown away perfectly good chances to snatch up allies and it has nothing to do with the blood elves. Honestly what the fuck are you even trying to argue? The blood elves could have been impassive and they still would have made a better impression than the night elves did.

[Syegfryed]

kill a tree = bad

kill humanoid races = good

thats the finest night elf logic here

[Lorgar Aurelian]

kill a tree = bad

kill humanoid races = good

thats the finest night elf logic here

Tree are freinds not Resources. Save the trees! Join NATM today, nightelfs against tree murder.

[Friendlyimmolation]

ok then, if next time a group of aliens invade the sunwell and try to steal its power you have to negotiate with them.

chopping down some fucking trees from a forest you had no fucking idea what inhabited =/= trying to steal the sunwell, your attempts to equalize the issue are just as bad as when you tried to create a real life example.

Reacting toward a hostile attempt in their own land=bad

Invading and stealing resources=good

Thats the finest Orc logic here

logic isn't your strongsuit.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

ok then, if next time a group of aliens invade the sunwell and try to steal its power you have to negotiate with them.



Reacting toward a hostile attempt in their own land=bad

Invading and stealing resources=good

Thats the finest Orc logic here

As much as I hate orcs they wernt hostile when they first came to ashenvale. They tried to get some wood and the night elfs attacked them without trying to talk.

[DeicideUH]

As much as I hate orcs they wernt hostile when they first came to ashenvale. They tried to get some wood and the night elfs attacked them without trying to talk.

Grom wasn't willing to talk, either. When you are trespassing into another's territory, it's good to try to parlay. The orcs may not have known the forest was elven territory, but once the elves started attacking, you do have the option to try to talk.

The elves were mostly trying to scare the orcs off initially, sending small skirmish forces and using intimidation tactics. Grom Hellscream, instead, just goes: "Oh, you attacked us? Then come and die, weaklings!", thus escalating everything further. THEN the elves attack with their real forces, beat the orcs down, and Grom, instead of retreating, decides drinking demon blood is the best option. Everything goes downhill after that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Grom wasn't willing to talk, either. When you are trespassing into another's territory, it's good to try to parlay. The orcs may not have known the forest was elven territory, but once the elves started attacking, you do have the option to try to talk.

The elves were mostly trying to scare the orcs off initially, sending small skirmish forces and using intimidation tactics. Grom Hellscream, instead, just goes: "Oh, you attacked us? Then come and die, weaklings!", thus escalating everything further. THEN the elves attack with their real forces, beat the orcs down, and Grom, instead of retreating, decides drinking demon blood is the best option. Everything goes downhill after that.

There's no justification for the night elfs attack and trying to talk down a bunch of weird blue people who are killing your men with a gaint deer monster isn't reasonable. The night elfs were 100% at fault for the first blood.

[Dagoth Ur]

Grom wasn't willing to talk, either. When you are trespassing into another's territory, it's good to try to parlay. The orcs may not have known the forest was elven territory, but once the elves started attacking, you do have the option to try to talk.

The elves were mostly trying to scare the orcs off initially, sending small skirmish forces and using intimidation tactics. Grom Hellscream, instead, just goes: "Oh, you attacked us? Then come and die, weaklings!", thus escalating everything further. THEN the elves attack with their real forces, beat the orcs down, and Grom, instead of retreating, decides drinking demon blood is the best option. Everything goes downhill after that.

Lol how are you supposed to conclude that someone hostile is only trying to scare you off and is only sending "skirmish forces" at you?
Grom didn't have a chance to parlay because he was immediately attacked.

Night elves can even hear Grom saying he thinks there's no one living in these forest but spirits while they're stalking orc camp. If they're so reasonable they could've approach them non-hostile then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEDDPuibLQ

Anyway, the whole point of Night elven arc in War3 RoC was overcoming their xenophobia and letting "lesser races" help them against Legion & Scourge. They weren't nature caring pacifist they're in WoW.

[ravenmoon]

First of all, there is not a competition of making the nightborne joining either of sides. Night Elves have no interest in allying with the ones who betrayed them in the past. They mostly prefer to work with the ones who want to protect the nature and the wilds and Azeorth like dragons, keepers of the grove and wild gods who have the same goal, not some selfish people who only care about themselves, even if they were once Night Elves.
.
.

nightborne never betrayed the night elves what are you talking about. Nightborne are Suramar njight elves, this entire region rebelled against the Queen, it's this group that the current night elves in the alliance come from - they betrayed the Queen. Recently Elisande betrayed all night elf kind by letting the legion in, the nightborne enlisted our help to help them fight her and end the Legion. We succceeded

- - - Updated - - -

The nightborne story is almost the exact same as the blood elf one.

Mana addiction causing deformities, a well of immense power being the main source of feeding that addiction, a leader betraying the, and falling to the burning Legion, both finding an alternate source of power and being ‘redeemed’ etc...

and you realize mana addiction/arcane withdrawal first happened with the night elves right. And you realize that it is the story of the arcane addiction problem that was standing in the way of many night elves embracing the arcane right.

Can you not even see that the blood elves found their own solution and what you see told in the nightborne story is the night elven/highborne solution to a problem that had plagued them since the time before sundering when Azshara started going "off".

Also we are supposed to appreciate the similarities, because all elves share the night elven root, but to r ecognise that the nightborne case is its own unique one. The blood elves can show empathy there, which gives you the horde player a reason to be invested in them. But to sweep you away to the extent you feel because of this similarity a clearly night elven group has nothing to do with the night elves is beyond stupid.

Nightborne on the horde = night elves on the horde, they are not blood elves, if the horde get nightborne, the blood elves w ill be getting a version of night elf on their side, not a black/purple blood elf. you're also to see that this is the original kaldorei empire highborne vein of elf, from which the blood elves came from. They connect the blood elves to the main night elf story which perhaps may have felt too alliancey.

BUt the success of it greatly hinges on the nightborne's night elven identity while they are on the horde - it can do wonders for the night elven story if played right, because it gets both factions now involved in the night elven story, and it should not be at the expense of the alliance night elves, therefore the main body of nightborne including Suramar will continue to have and retain its strong night elven identity which the blood leves can interact with, but not take over nor dominate.

Further to that, the night elves definitely need a large piece of that to be available to them, so this fantasy, kaldorei empire fantasy especially in Thalyssra's vein, in the pre-madness of Azshara night elven empire world is alive again. They will need this.

I like the idea of a naga elf sub-race with the horde instead of the nightborne. But I'm also tired of the night elves being clipped because they are on the alliance, which is why i want a larger night elf identity in the lore to be based on the Broken Isle groups rather than on Darnassus. Tyrande still has a role there as high priestess with the main temple of Elune across the bridge (which will be repaired and the temple grounds cleansed by a move of Elune). Malfurion will still play a role because of his connection to the Val'sharah druids as the druid Shan'do , even though his main HQ is Moonglade, and Tyrande's is Darnassus, in facat it would be nice to see them leave the leadership of the night elves to others like Shandris and/or Broll Bearmantle, while they focus on their orders, i mean night elves have lived in their separate orders rather than a central government, so its more fitting that hte central government that's allied with the alliance isn't anything special, the speciality of hte ngiht elves is in the orders - highborne, druid, Elune priest.

Ultimately i feel the best solution is Thalyssra ruling the broken isle night elven kingdom as its own entity, and they forge the proper night elf identity we should have had after WC3, 10k year old ancients extremely gifted with arcane, nature and divine magic thanks to the mages of Suramar, the druids of Val'sharah and the Priests of Thal'dranath... with the martial strength of the Moonguard, Duskwatch, Watchers and Illidari - providing a full military complement.

They work towards fulfilling the night elven original destiny they were pursuing before the legion came. They also work to bring Azshara to justice, protect the world from world threats and ensure the races aren't fighting each other when they should be fighting bigger threats and making sure they don't become the bigger threat. Which is why they get the exiles to join the horde, and another group on the alliance.

i prefer this to the conflict route i was proposing earlier in t he year. Although the conflict route will also work. where a bunch of nightborne are exiled, the ones who were diehard Elisande supports, but never took the Fel. They would have been executed except they followed Elisande's shade when she helped us overthrow Gul'dan, but it was too little too late, and got exiled without the fruit as punishment, the blood elves are angered by this as it dredges up memories of night elven stiff necked morality when its clear these guys are willing to do better. They empathize with the exiles because like the exiles, the blood elves briefly did serve the legion in TBC before turning around led by the Scryers. But the rescuers of SUramar, i..e Thalyssra, Lunastre and many who eventually joined them and fought against Elisande before she turned to our side, well they like the night elves of the alliance i.e. Tyrande/Malfurion and that lot never compromised to the legion and had stood unwavering against what they stood for since day one even when their Queen was identified as clearly following

[Zulkhan]

and what will you say when next expansion starts the Troll tidal wave.. world of trollcraft?

Yup, that's guaranteed to happen.

i think this expansion si hardly Elfcraft just because of all those demonhunters running around.

This expansion screamed ELF around from the beginning until the end of 7.1. And no, I will not let you dismiss the fact that the two elven races of the game and only them got a whole new hero class at this turn.

Of course, all of this without considering the various Blood/High Elf dumb shenanigans of the previous expansions.

OT

Nightborne should overall stay out of the factions but I don't see the problem about some being more Horde-leaning and others more Alliance-leaning. Perfectly fine as long they don't become playable or something. That would piss me off.

Oh and about the Night Elf whitewashing regarding their 100% peaceful attacks against Grom and company: their hostility towards the Orcs was no different from the hostility of Forest Trolls shown towards High Elves. In some ways is even worse, as at least Forest Trolls reacted that harshly because they saw in High Elves the same elves that fucked them over in the past, Night Elves were triggered over DEAD TREES MUH BIG CRIME because everyone in the fucking world must know that their fucking sacred forest is sacred. Hell, it's not like you can even realize there's any owners around, given Night Elf's usual thing for elusiveness.

[Friendlyimmolation]

In fact it is actually you. You can't understand that these fucking trees you describe is sacred to Night Elves same way sunwell is sacred to Blood Elves. if you can't comprehend that it doesn't mean that it is wrong. Try to show some respect to people's beliefs if you want to receive the same thing.

holy fuck lol, once again you show a complete lack of understanding, or even an attempt at understanding. The orcs had no fucking clue the night elves were there, the Sunwell was in the middle of a fucking populated civilization that made itself known. DO try to understand the major differences, because all you have done so far is babble on about trees because it somehow is supposed to make the night elves somehow less like assholes to other races?

That's the problem. They just want some woods is what you think. NEs don't think like that. This land belonged to them and they sworn to protect it because they respect life. A tree is equal to a living being. We saw time to time that they willingly gave their lives to defend it. Orcs should have retreated to barrens when they realized that this place has a owner instead of resisting and advancing in.

Or maybe, the night elves shouldn't have shot first and asked questions later, because all it did was ignite a war that only just ended after the siege of Orgrimmar. Once again, the night elves were shit, and still seem to be shit at dealing with other races.

why not? This is their land and outlanders invaded it and started stealing its resources and Night Elves attacked to defend their lands. Everyone would have done the same thing.

The average race might have made their presence known before trying to slaughter people they had never seen nor met before.

[QUOTE][Well Chronicles mentions that the people of Suramar with Elisande in lead decided not to help the rebellious forces who marched to Zin Azshari and they decided to create a shield around Suramar and only protect themselves. They turned their backs on the others for their own selfish reasons./QUOTE]

That still is not siding with the legion.

[Syegfryed]

I

That's the problem. They just want some woods is what you think. NEs don't think like that. This land belonged to them and they sworn to protect it because they respect life. A tree is equal to a living being. We saw time to time that they willingly gave their lives to defend it. Orcs should have retreated to barrens when they realized that this place has a owner instead of resisting and advancing in.

uuh what a fucking legend, the guys who "protect and love live" above everything can't stand when someone cut a tree and immediately try to kill then

and HAHAHA the orcs should have retreated? ROFL when damn morons get out of the woods and start kill your people you flee? you fight and kill the bastards

why not? This is their land and outlanders invaded it and started stealing its resources and Night Elves attacked to defend their lands. Everyone would have done the same thing.

Not everyone would do that, you now diplomacy? if they are so peaceful and life lovers like you claim they should try that first : "hey you green apes, this is our land, our woods, you can't cut"

and again if a bunch of savage people start to come from the woods killing your people you defend yourself. Everyone would have done that

[Friendlyimmolation]

As I said if some alien invaders came to your land and started destroying and stealing what is sacred to you and your people, go and negotiate with them.

And in this case, do I leave no trace of my existence so the person has no idea what they are doing is sacrilege? Or is this another failed petty attempt to make your point seem even a smidgen less nonsensical?

Always the alliance side should show diplomacy. yeah, and horde can do what ever it likes

You are literally the only person saying that, and that's because instead of actually reading you jump from conclusion to conclusion, when you aren't making bad comparisons that is.

[Wyrt]

I think silgryn may be the leader of the nightborne of the horde and Oculeth of the alliance

It makes no sense for them to start Nightborne civil war 2 right after they just finished. Especially one being lead by two of the people who fought on the winning side of the last civil war.