Mega-Thread: Mueller investigation

[cubby]

Because what you just linked is an entirely different case from an entirely different circuit court... Hence the "split circuit" and the issue potentially needing a final resolution in the Supreme Court... Because different circuit courts are not in agreement on the issue.

It was my understanding that the issue was resolved in Nixon by the Supreme court. They said Congress has the right to subpoena grand jury testimony/documents in their investigative powers.

[Belize]

Carter Page was never charged with any crimes.

Well good for him.

[I Push Buttons]

It was my understanding that the issue was resolved in Nixon by the Supreme court. They said Congress has the right to subpoena grand jury testimony/documents in their investigative powers.

The lower court made that ruling on the grounds that their subpoena with regard to their impeachment investigation did abide by the 6(e)(2) exceptions. Nixon then tried to block the release of some of it, citing executive privilege; which is the case that went to the Supreme Court. That case established that he could not block the release of that information.

There hasn't been a case specifically regarding exceptions to grand jury secrecy before the Supreme Court yet. Though as pointed out in previous posts and the article linked by Ripster, it very well could soon happen because circuit courts have held conflicting rulings on the matter.

[Ripster42]

Because what you just linked is an entirely different case from an entirely different circuit court... Hence the "split circuit" and the issue potentially needing a final resolution in the Supreme Court... Because different circuit courts are not in agreement on the issue.

My bad on the exact case (and the mckeever one is unlikely to be precedent setting as it only relates to the desire of a mystery writer, which wouldn't qualify as an exceptional circumstance). Regardless, the case I linked makes the 4th ruling (biaggi, craig, Douglas Oil) affirming the court's inherent right to disclose grand jury proceedings outside of rule 6(e) (3). I think that we can all agree, that a sitting president being suspected of being compromised by a hostile foreign power (and apparently backed by "very compelling evidence"), would constitute an "exceptional circumstance." The underlying biaggi precedent is about how many questions a guy refused to answer while he was running for mayor, which isn't remotely as "exceptional" of a circumstance. Remember, while nixon's grand jury testimony is still sealed, he resigned, making the argument of much less public interest.

[Shadowferal]

U.S. House judiciary chair seeks any Mueller summaries on Trump-Russia probe report

Nadler, a Democrat who is also demanding release of the full Mueller report to Congress, sent a letter to Barr citing media reports that Mueller's team prepared their own summaries of the special counsel's report.

"If these recent reports are accurate ... then those summaries should be publicly released as soon as possible," Nadler said.

Nadler also called on Barr to produce "all communications" about the Mueller report between the special counsel's office and the Justice Department, including those on Barr's March 24 letter to Congress summarizing the investigation's main conclusions and the disclosure of the report to Congress and the public.

---------------------

William Barr Seems to Be Covering Up Something Bad for Trump

[Ripster42]

The lower court made that ruling on the grounds that their subpoena with regard to their impeachment investigation did abide by the 6(e)(2) exceptions. Nixon then tried to block the release of some of it, citing executive privilege; which is the case that went to the Supreme Court. That case established that he could not block the release of that information.

There hasn't been a case specifically regarding exceptions to grand jury secrecy before the Supreme Court yet. Though as pointed out in previous posts and the article linked by Ripster, it very well could soon happen because circuit courts have held conflicting rulings on the matter.

AFAIK, there aren't conflicting opinions yet. The "more recent dc circuit" ruling explicitly includes the phrase, "as a general matter, at least..."There's the possibility of conflicting opinions if mckeever's appeal explicitly denies the inherent right. "A reluctance to" do something isn't a prohibitive bar. "A general matter" isn't an "exceptional circumstance."

[beanman12345]

Right, Barr had already made up his mind on that shit ages ago and glossed over it. Which is kinda what the Mueller people are talking about when they say his memo was bullshit. I'm glad you're slowly catching up though.

catching up? wow you are condescending af for no reason.

[Edge-]

What's interesting is that the last time the FISA warrant was renewed, Mueller had just been appointed Special Counsel a couple weeks prior. Let's assume he was still transitioning, getting up to speed and assembling his team during that time. After that, not only was it never renewed again, but all the major players involved in the whole FISA fiasco (McCabe, Comey, Strzok, Lisa Page, et al.) were gone, pushed out of the picture.

Clearly, these individuals under various sorts of investigation (like McCabe) or pushed out over improper actions (Strzok and Page) all thought these FISA warrants were worthwhile, but you know who didn't?

Mueller.

Alternatively, they were no longer getting actionable intelligence from the FISA surveillance and had no reason to seek a further extension. Also, like, Page knew he was under surveillance by that point which kinda defeats the whole point of continuing to monitor him.

[Orbitus]

Haha. yea and Mifsud never testified or even met with Mueller. JFC, how you link that old dumb ass story. But what I said is true. They used the dossier to justify the FISA and then used circular reporting to say that the dossier is true.

Hey, another Trump humper caught lying? Color me shocked.

[beanman12345]

Really? Go back and look at our chain. You went from not caring wtf Barr has to say to thinking his word is gospel.

- - - Updated - - -



Considering how stupid these people have been you never know.

wtf are you talking about? I've repeatedly and specifically told you i don't even give a fuck what partisan fuck barr has to say.

[beanman12345]

If you say so.

yes because you made the ludicrous statement

The DOJ defers to Congress and the power to impeach first.

And the thing I said about barr is right that you even accepted and agreed to. get off your high horse.

[beanman12345]

The thing you said about Barr isn’t right. We’ve been over this though.

wow so now your claiming barr didn't make a ruling on obstruction? nice lie.

[Rysthruun]

My assertions were accurate:

The mueller investigation is ongoing, both trials still to come that can plea out (and therefore yield new info, which, again, means the investigation isn't done as there are still potential sources of information), as well as grand jury proceedings ongoing (which, again, are either for new information or new indictments, they don't hold grand juries for no reason). We know there's still at least one pending subpoena (which we've talked about as "they mystery foreign owned corporation") that the SC just upheld the daily 50k contempt fines for. I'm not sure how you say the investigation is closed with that subpoena still open period, trials pending, and grand jury proceedings still winding their way through the courts. It's not a rational position to hold.

The judge can release the findings, without redaction, if they deem it to be of overwhelming public interest, in this case, evidence pertaining to the president's malfeasance vis a vis russia (as well as obstruction, but I do believe the standard there should remain beyond a reasonable doubt). You bullshitting otherwise doesn't make you correct. It just makes you a bullshitter.

That's where this started: you being wrong, and me correcting you.

The bribery charges are likely going to be from the EDNY investigation that was spun off, as they're not specific to how russia interfered in our election, but why. Again, we know a member of the campaign was feeding russians internal campaign polling data (from the guy's own attorney). The "collusion" angle isn't really in doubt.

This next point is just slamming home how transparent your faux democratic BS is: Barr is a GOP operative who has already covered up for a president once before this. Why you take anything he says as anywhere near the truth, while knowing this, is also, not a rational position to hold, unless you have an ulterior motive. When barr actually quotes the report "...[T]he [SCO] did not establish..." and turns it into "...[D]id not find..." you know he's pulling the same whitewash bullshit he did for bush sr. The phrase, "did not establish" means a specific thing. It does not mean they "did not find" a specific conclusion, it just means they don't have enough evidence to bring an indictment. The "preponderance of the evidence" in the public sphere already has him being compromised. The evidence could be "clear and convincing" that he is compromised, and while that's not enough for a criminal indictment, it should definitely be enough to remove a security threat from office. Trump wouldn't be headed to jail if he was impeached. He would have an opportunity at another trial to evade that outcome (though, not likely, as the SDNY charges w/ cohen which list him as "individual one" are still sitting there).



This is you attempting to distance trump from the investigation when placed next to what it was a response to. The report definitely details some evidence about whether or not the president is compromised, or if it was just his underling manafort explicitly cooperating with them and trump was just, miraculously, an even bigger idiot than he has already portrayed himself as.

This is what you said:


That's you, calling me a rapist. "It doesn't seem that ironic," and you inventing slang to do it. That's you saying it's not ironic. I didn't even report you for it and it got you an infraction, so obviously other people read it that way too (and it was a mod who dislikes me, go figure).

So when is your #walkaway thread coming? First you state your a dem, then say it doesn't matter and you don't care if people think you're a dem or not, and now, here you are, yet again, trying to say you're a democrat. If you didn't care, you'd just STFU about it.

You must be getting tired with your circular arguments and having to hike the goal posts around.

Mueller's investigation cannot be finished but ongoing. This isn't Schrodinger's investigation. Any information reached in a plea deal would be added as an addendum to the final report, it doesn't mean the investigation is on going. The collection of evidence stage is over, that is what an investigation is.

You lied and stated that the opinion piece from politico stated the investigation was still on going. It did not, and when I called on you to point out exactly where you retreated back to your circular nonsensical speculative jibbering.

Yes, the grand jury is ongoing, and will remain on going because of it's active case load, until the courts reach a disposition phase on all of it's cases. It will still be on going until their is a disposition phase for the indicted Russian military officers which is likely never. That doesn't mean their is an investigation going. This was implied heavily when the article stated Mueller has dispersed his case load and closed down shop. Did you think he was closing down shop to get some donuts?

Again, I didn't dispute nor did I ever claim that a judge couldn't release an unredacted report. I stated releasing a redacted report about grand jury information was against the law and it is. I explained to you thoroughly why a judge releasing an unredacted report would be a horrible idea and that it is unlikely that any rational human being would inflict so much collateral damage onto itself over a 2-3 week release date discrepancy. The pragmatic approach would be to reserve making a judgement until the redactions are made AND THEN weighing a judgement on public interest of what was redacted.

The only bullshitter here is you. Lying about what I say, lying about the content of articles, accusing me of things you literally made up, lies lies lies lies lies and jibbering.

I take everything Barr says with a grain of salt. That doesn't mean I subscribe to wild speculation, something I suggest you do. The guy has stated he wants to be as transparent as possible. I don't see why waiting 3 weeks is a big deal, and again, it makes us look like children having a bitch fit. I think protecting sources and methods and protecting grand jury information is a very necessary thing. If the redactions are just cherry picked to protect Trump, I trust Mueller and others will blow the whistle.

The civil standard of preponderance is used for family court, small claims, and civil court. It has fuck all to do with criminal court, which is the only court that matters in gaining the legitimate traction we need to impeach Trump. Take your preponderance jibbering back to the soup kitchen plz.

Bribery is a federal charge and one that Mueller would have personally indicted Trump on had their been evidence of it

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/t...t-I/chapter-11

Trump can be impeached over a misdemeanor crime never mind a federal one. Conspiracy is hands down the easiest thing Mueller could have charged him with and he did not find evidence that reached the easiest threshold to charge a person with. If they can't nail him for the easiest thing, they aren't going to be able to nail him for harder things. If their was going to be a bribery charge, a conspiracy charge would have been enjoined.

A criminal court has the HIGHEST standards of evidence and that's why it matters. Your assertions about civil judgements is not based on any sort of reality. If their was clear and convincing evidence, he would have been criminally charged. Articles of impeachment can be drawn over an allegation, but it will not withstand a trial.

That isn't me trying to distance Trump from anything. That's me explaining to you that Mueller's report isn't a report about whether the president is compromised. It's a report about Russian interference in the 2016 election. That the predication of it being a report about the president is patently false. That if the argument being made to a judge was that it was, it would be shot down because that's not what the investigation was about. Those are just facts. I'm not trying to say their isn't anything bad about Trump in them, just that reasoning which you provided was not accurate or rational.

No, that is not me calling you a rapist. Just because I change my mind about the irony of your handle, which is slang for rapist, doesn't mean that I'm calling you a rapist. Learn 2 English, ok pumpkin. Who cares about this shitty websites infractions?

[Dacien]

Haha. yea and Mifsud never testified or even met with Mueller. JFC, how you link that old dumb ass story. But what I said is true. They used the dossier to justify the FISA and then used circular reporting to say that the dossier is true.

Crossfire Hurricane (the investigation preceding Mueller, which Mueller would later subsume) did indeed start with Papadopoulos leaking to an Australian diplomat that he knew Russia had dirt on Hillary, but when comparing the two, that event and the Steele dossier, the former was like building the chassis of a race car, and the latter would be everything else, including the 600 hp engine, and saying, "The reason this race car goes so fast is really because of the chassis; That's where it all started."

The dossier injected steroids into the entire theory. It was the blueprint for collusion. The FBI was so certain that they could rely on Mr. Steele (and I'll be charitable here, they had good reason to), that they ramrodded the FISA warrant through without verifying any of it. And as I mentioned earlier, the man who was Deputy Director of the FBI would later say that if they didn't have the dossier, there would have been no FISA warrant.

But even beyond that, it is my firm belief to this day that the dossier is the whole reason we had a Special Counsel. Without this theory adding jet fuel to Crossfire Hurricane and extending out almost a year, and months into Trump's presidency, not to mention the media who were more than happy to jump on board, there would have been no Comey firing. Trump fired him because he wouldn't put the Russian collusion theory to bed. As we know now, it was simple irritation over being accused of something he knew was false, but at the time it looked dodgy. Thus, Mueller.

The whole thing is actual quite fascinating, which is why I still post about it. A hundred years from now in a history book on American presidents, a chapter will be dedicated to this.

[Elegiac]

But even beyond that, it is my firm belief to this day that the dossier is the whole reason we had a Special Counsel.

I mean, it's your right in a liberal republic to be fuckass wrong. Good on you for choosing to exercise that.

What has been publicly revealed in the course of the investigations about the financial ties between the Trump organization and Russia make the simplest explanation that Trump has been under investigation by various parties for years and that firing Comey set off a red flag due to his ties.

And we've been over this. We all understand that trying to pin the entirety extent of any federal investigation of the circumstances surrounding the 2016 election on a single document which you believe you can falsify, you can avoid the risk of losing your hard won gains under this administration.

You said yourself that Trump's disgusting conduct was worth the Supreme Court seats and the deregulation of the economy. And ever since this investigation started you've been terrified that Trump's election being deemed illegitimate wound give the next Democratic government utter political license to make sure your vision of America would be tossed in the bin like an aborted fetus.

If you are truly as interested in the welfare of this republic as you claim, perhaps you should use what time is left in this administration to reflect on how your party went astray and come to terms with the fact that America as it existed since the Reagan era is coming to a close.

[Stormspellz]

Crossfire Hurricane (the investigation preceding Mueller, which Mueller would later subsume) did indeed start with Papadopoulos leaking to an Australian diplomat that he knew Russia had dirt on Hillary, but when comparing the two, that event and the Steele dossier, the former was like building the chassis of a race car, and the latter would be everything else, including the 600 hp engine, and saying, "The reason this race car goes so fast is really because of the chassis; That's where it all started."

The dossier injected steroids into the entire theory. It was the blueprint for collusion. The FBI was so certain that they could rely on Mr. Steele (and I'll be charitable here, they had good reason to), that they ramrodded the FISA warrant through without verifying any of it. And as I mentioned earlier, the man who was Deputy Director of the FBI would later say that if they didn't have the dossier, there would have been no FISA warrant.

But even beyond that, it is my firm belief to this day that the dossier is the whole reason we had a Special Counsel. Without this theory adding jet fuel to Crossfire Hurricane and extending out almost a year, and months into Trump's presidency, not to mention the media who were more than happy to jump on board, there would have been no Comey firing. Trump fired him because he wouldn't put the Russian collusion theory to bed. As we know now, it was simple irritation over being accused of something he knew was false, but at the time it looked dodgy. Thus, Mueller.

The whole thing is actual quite fascinating, which is why I still post about it. A hundred years from now in a history book on American presidents, a chapter will be dedicated to this.

nice except the FISA warrants predated even the Trump campaign, your theory is on the dossier being the reason for the investigation is nothing and i mean nothing more then propaganda, has ZERO connections to reality. The dossier was taken seriously because it lined up with information the agencies already pieced together from investigations already going on.

[Dacien]

I mean, it's your right in a liberal republic to be fuckass wrong. Good on you for choosing to exercise that.

What has been publicly revealed in the course of the investigations about the financial ties between the Trump organization and Russia make the simplest explanation that Trump has been under investigation by various parties for years and that firing Comey set off a red flag due to his ties.

And we've been over this. We all understand that trying to pin the entirety extent of any federal investigation of the circumstances surrounding the 2016 election on a single document which you believe you can falsify, you can avoid the risk of losing your hard won gains under this administration.

You said yourself that Trump's disgusting conduct was worth the Supreme Court seats and the deregulation of the economy. And ever since this investigation started you've been terrified that Trump's election being deemed illegitimate wound give the next Democratic government utter political license to make sure your vision of America would be tossed in the bin like an aborted fetus.

If you are truly as interested in the welfare of this republic as you claim, perhaps you should use what time is left in this administration to reflect on how your party went astray and come to terms with the fact that America as it existed since the Reagan era is coming to a close.

Honestly, I'm more analytical about it these days. It's just interesting. It's not lost on me that the GOP fought so hard against Trump that they even trotted out Romney to give a scathing rebuke of Trump and plea to Republican constituents to eschew him, only to wholeheartedly embrace him today. It's not a point of pride, if that's what you're asking.

But when evaluating long-term, there are two different paths to explore. Firstly, the long-term degradation of our discourse, what we expect from our politicians, the normalization of disgusting and unbecoming language and behavior in our leaders. Shifting the acceptability level of bullying and incivility downward. None of this is good. The second is the long-term direction of the country. This is policy, positive cultural shifts influenced by political movements, societal acceptance of positive social views. This is good. In an ideal situation, we'd have less of the former, and, subject to the individual in question, more of the latter. If I am the individual in question, we've got a lot of both. Balancing these out, or to put it in a better way, weighing them, I see the suffering in one long-term path outweighed by the growth of the other.

[Blur4stuff]

So Trump supporters have gone from "the dossier started everything" to "the dossier made it worse". Nice shift.

Anyways, if the report's findings were actually good for Trump then Barr would have already released it. That would have happened day one.

This is how we know it's full of some damaging shit. By trying to cover it up and further obstruct they are only making it worse. This is going to continue dragging out and cause even more damage to republicans for 2020. Should have just ripped off the bandage.

[Shalcker]

Rand Paul just blocked the Senate's attempt to make the Mueller report public.

"The one that was unanimous in the House?"

The same. He blocked it because but her emails.

"...no."



Paul is taking a risk here. This is a big move to protect Trump. He's claiming the Mueller report can't be released without the context of investigating a bunch of other things first.

This does not sound like total and complete exonoration to me. If Paul really wanted that other information, he should work with GOP members in the Senate to go find it. Blocking other information does not achieve that goal.

What's wrong with releasing those communications if there was no wrongdoing on Obama/Comey/Brennan part?

[Bodakane]

Crossfire Hurricane (the investigation preceding Mueller, which Mueller would later subsume) did indeed start with Papadopoulos leaking to an Australian diplomat that he knew Russia had dirt on Hillary, but when comparing the two, that event and the Steele dossier, the former was like building the chassis of a race car, and the latter would be everything else, including the 600 hp engine, and saying, "The reason this race car goes so fast is really because of the chassis; That's where it all started."

The dossier injected steroids into the entire theory. It was the blueprint for collusion. The FBI was so certain that they could rely on Mr. Steele (and I'll be charitable here, they had good reason to), that they ramrodded the FISA warrant through without verifying any of it. And as I mentioned earlier, the man who was Deputy Director of the FBI would later say that if they didn't have the dossier, there would have been no FISA warrant.

But even beyond that, it is my firm belief to this day that the dossier is the whole reason we had a Special Counsel. Without this theory adding jet fuel to Crossfire Hurricane and extending out almost a year, and months into Trump's presidency, not to mention the media who were more than happy to jump on board, there would have been no Comey firing. Trump fired him because he wouldn't put the Russian collusion theory to bed. As we know now, it was simple irritation over being accused of something he knew was false, but at the time it looked dodgy. Thus, Mueller.

The whole thing is actual quite fascinating, which is why I still post about it. A hundred years from now in a history book on American presidents, a chapter will be dedicated to this.

Here's the problem with you guys....you think things are true because you want them to be, not because they are with facts, logic and reason to back them up.

As it stands, nothing has been proven and if there are indicators of something being true, they certainly aren;'t pointing in Trump's favor. If you want to say all of this is wrong then you must account for:

- All the indictments
- Co-conspirator 1
- Refusal to release the report
- Numerous FBI investigators upset with Barr's conclusion
- Why did he obstruct if he was innocent

vs.

- Barr, who came out against the report because he believes Trump is above the law and as been known has the cover up king, and even he couldn't say he was exonerated

Failure to address these with facts proves you know your emperor is dirty