8.0 Paladin Hopes, Fantasies, Guesses?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Critical thinking? Oh , I have that aplenty of.

Failegion ret is shite .
They either need to
A) fix their shit
B) revert to previous
C) overhaul spec yet again

Now then, are we beating witness to either of these and why not?
Because they are professional professionals who are very professional?
Because they know better and see some theoretical, bigger picture?

Who buys this shit ?

[Whatever Dude]

Ironic post given your reasoning for needing Hammer of Wrath is "because it's cool and I miss it." Critical thinking at the highest level. Nostalgia isn't a reason to bring something back. Like I said, if it was up to these forums, we would be playing Wrath Ret for all eternity. Although I promise that after a couple years of that, people would be here crying for change. There's no pleasing anyone here, ever, so it doesn't surprise me you think it sucks now. I personally don't mind it and I encourage change to keep the game moving forward. Sure they miss the mark sometimes and it currently could use some work, but bringing back Hammer of Wrath isn't a fix, or even close to a well thought out idea on what might fix it. So if you want to talk about critical thinking and fixing a spec you think sucks, try moving past reverting back to 10 year old spells because you think they're cool.

It's not about nostalgia, it's about bringing back something that has proven to be loved by a bunch of people. The fact that you dishonestly make it out to be only about me is what's really telling about how you think, you're trying to make this about nostalgia when it's anything but. It's simply about returning tools that have been proven to work in the past.

The added hyperbole was a nice touch, though. Really completes the worthlessness of your post.

[Maduk]

Decent DPS, mobility and getting rid of that colossus smash BS are my only hopes.
But since the Paladin dev team is pretty retarded, nothing will change and everything will be even more shit then now.

[Grogplus]

I think you guys arguing the wrong thing, nobody really minds changes but the quality of this changes. Im 100% sure that ret redesign took place on a drunken weekend, I already posted in this thread about some problems they needed to fix and I agree that auras were useless, seals had almost zero interaction, plate user such as paladin should not have ~70% uptime on sprint and the amount of range abilities was too damn high. What did they do? Removed everything and gave us some bs token replacement that suppose to improve our class fantasy where in fact class fantasy was damaged the most.

[Jester Joe]

What even motivates a person to post such drivel?

I guess a lack of critical thinking, maybe? We tried new. Legion Ret is brand new. It sucks. Why keep asking the devs to piss into the wind when we can go back to tried and true methods? Of course people want Seals and Hammer back. They worked. They were cool. We miss them.

Hammer of Wrath was a dead button for, at a rough guess, 60% of the fight, and also caused part of the issue that we were a wet noodle outside of Avenging Wrath since it made the burst even more ridiculous.

Granted, we still suffer from issues like this, but that doesn't mean the solution is just double down and make it worse.

I have to agree with Swamp on this, I see no need to have HoW back.

Although I don't see much issue with the current design of Ret either aside from two things

1) the copy and paste mastery from Arms
2) Mobility.

Fix those two, and numbers aside, the class would feel better. Hell, at this point I would even take removing Divine Steed from the GCD, but that's crazy talk I know.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Hammer of Wrath was a dead button for, at a rough guess, 60% of the fight, and also caused part of the issue that we were a wet noodle outside of Avenging Wrath since it made the burst even more ridiculous.

Granted, we still suffer from issues like this, but that doesn't mean the solution is just double down and make it worse.

I have to agree with Swamp on this, I see no need to have HoW back.

Although I don't see much issue with the current design of Ret either aside from two things

1) the copy and paste mastery from Arms
2) Mobility.

Fix those two, and numbers aside, the class would feel better. Hell, at this point I would even take removing Divine Steed from the GCD, but that's crazy talk I know.

It is a moot argument how long is the time till ability becomes usable.
Take a look at execute: irs unavailable for 79% of the fight, still a great ability which is greatly anticipated, interesting, fun, engaging and requires some semblance of thought under specific circumstances not to mention actual, very interesting talent and resource synergy.

How come HoW did not receive such treatment?
Because “we want warriors to be kings of execute “?

[Jester Joe]

It is a moot argument how long is the time till ability becomes usable.
Take a look at execute: irs unavailable for 79% of the fight, still a great ability which is greatly anticipated, interesting, fun, engaging and requires some semblance of thought under specific circumstances not to mention actual, very interesting talent and resource synergy.

How come HoW did not receive such treatment?
Because “we want warriors to be kings of execute “?

It's not just the fact that it was only usable at 20% and while AW was up, it's also the fact that it made AW too bursty (But they just amplified that with Crusade, either way, still was an issue).

And honestly, as much as I would love to neuter execute because I hate seeing warriors go from 8th in dps to 1st because of long execute phase (exaggeration but still), they didn't remove other executes either like SD: Death or whatever, so I don't think it's a fair reason for them to remove HoW for that reason. But while I disagree on their logic there, it doesn't change that I don't think bringing back HoW is the way to make things better.

[Morally Grey Storm]

It's not just the fact that it was only usable at 20% and while AW was up, it's also the fact that it made AW too bursty (But they just amplified that with Crusade, either way, still was an issue).

And honestly, as much as I would love to neuter execute because I hate seeing warriors go from 8th in dps to 1st because of long execute phase (exaggeration but still), they didn't remove other executes either like SD: Death or whatever, so I don't think it's a fair reason for them to remove HoW for that reason. But while I disagree on their logic there, it doesn't change that I don't think bringing back HoW is the way to make things better.

I am quite sure they could find a solution to AW being too bursty with HoW, as in: giving HoW a longer cd during wings so as to retain the flavorful and usage while diminishing the burst aspect, or simply de-linking it with each other.
Not rocket science. Took me half a minute to come up with. Effective.
How much did it take them to simply castrate ret? Was it effective?

[Swampmoose]

It's not about nostalgia, it's about bringing back something that has proven to be loved by a bunch of people.

That's the definition of nostalgia genius.

The fact that you dishonestly make it out to be only about me is what's really telling about how you think, you're trying to make this about nostalgia when it's anything but. It's simply about returning tools that have been proven to work in the past.

I'm simply replying to the reasons you posted, so don't get a big head thinking I'm making something about you. Also, if you would put that critical thinking cap on, you would realize I referred to "these forums" and "anyone here", speaking to the collective group. Anyways moving on....stop pretending that Hammer of Wrath is a tool that made the class/spec "work." That is the worst argument I've heard yet for it. The spec has always worked whether you enjoyed it or not. It works now, it worked 10 years ago, and it will work in BFA, with or without a hammer you can throw around. Like I also said, that doesn't mean it doesn't need improvements. It always has and always will unless they stick to the exact same thing year after year which I'm starting to believe people want. (Thank god no one from development has ever or will ever look here for ideas)

The added hyperbole was a nice touch, though. Really completes the worthlessness of your post.

Says the guy who's first reply to someone is about how they post drivel and display a lack of critical thinking just because they disagree. Insult posts aren't worthless right? There's a reason this place has become such a joke over the years. Most people with the intelligence to have a decent conversation about the class have moved on and we're left with people like you.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Fun fact: we’re also left with people like you, my dear Swampie sir.

[Leodric]

That's the definition of nostalgia genius.




I'm simply replying to the reasons you posted, so don't get a big head thinking I'm making something about you. Also, if you would put that critical thinking cap on, you would realize I referred to "these forums" and "anyone here", speaking to the collective group. Anyways moving on....stop pretending that Hammer of Wrath is a tool that made the class/spec "work." That is the worst argument I've heard yet for it. The spec has always worked whether you enjoyed it or not. It works now, it worked 10 years ago, and it will work in BFA, with or without a hammer you can throw around. Like I also said, that doesn't mean it doesn't need improvements. It always has and always will unless they stick to the exact same thing year after year which I'm starting to believe people want. (Thank god no one from development has ever or will ever look here for ideas)



Says the guy who's first reply to someone is about how they post drivel and display a lack of critical thinking just because they disagree. Insult posts aren't worthless right? There's a reason this place has become such a joke over the years. Most people with the intelligence to have a decent conversation about the class have moved on and we're left with people like you.

To be honest, I am seldomly writing on mmo-champion and usually just read for over 5 years already, but people like you are making this forum really toxic. He made some points and you had actually quite good arguments, but they way you display it just seems so hatefull and suppressive. Before you write a huge block of text calling me unintelligent or anything like that, I don't want to offend you with my opinion.

Anyways, Jester Joe and Swampmoose are actually right about the issue of HoW. Maybe the solution would be to not couple it with Wings anymore but just keep it as a normal execute? As I wrote already here, I am a huge fan of HoW, because it does bring back nostalgia which I have to admit, but also because it's a cool spell in general and gave some kind of rotation change during a fight.

What worries me more is actually the clunky playstyle of ret. Just today I got a nice ring update and changed it with my ring which had Haste on it. The missing 4% is just horrible gameplaywise, it just feels so clunky and I hope Blizzard will target that issue foremost

[Whatever Dude]

Yeah I am done replying to him. Best to ignore since he cannot conduct himself in a civil manner an cannot handle opposing views.

[killwithpwr]

It still seems weird to me that none of you guys are mentiining the Retribution buff...

Are people not afraid that Blizzard will leave that shitstain with us and not do anything about it?

Other than that, the only problems Ret really has is a major dependancy on burst and crap movement...

Maybe a couple of tweaks here and there, but what really needs to change is remove the damage aspect from Retribution, make us less dependant on Crusade (or Avenging wrath) and double our mobility options (or bring us some ranged abilities back)

[SonicTMP]

Fun fact: we’re also left with people like you, my dear Swampie sir.

Meanwhile we have people like you. Unwanted pests who do nothing but cry about every petty little thing and can never move on. It's no wonder the fourm is a cesspool.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Meanwhile we have people like you. Unwanted pests who do nothing but cry about every petty little thing and can never move on. It's no wonder the fourm is a cesspool.

Yes, we have people like me - the ones who are not afraid to provide perspective and criticism.
It’s no wonder the forum is a cesspool , when unpopular and undesirable opinions are bloated down by colonies of drones.
Oh well. I can do only so much.

I’m only human, after all
Don’t put your blame on me

[Eurytos]

I think by nuking almost all executes from the different classes, Blizz has failed to see how cool it is for gameplay. It's essentially a new phase of every fight, with out actually making a new phase. Fewer and fewer bosses have a berserking(not enrage auto-wipe) mechanic, which is the reason for having executes to finish that last tougher phase of the fight faster.

Also, even on bosses without berserking, its like a new mini game within the game, your rotation changes a little bit, giving you somethign to change up the monotony. It's a good mechanic. Often times it requires a new set of decision making. Do you always hit your execute when its up, forsaking your entire rotation? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe you don't have the rage, maybe that next Templar's Verdict is buffed and you need to use it and you put off HoW for a cd, etc.

I think it makes fights more boring for many classes. Getting the boss low should be an exciting feeling. The excitement builds when that boss gets in execute range and you have the whole raid prepared to execute. The fantasy of having put this group of champions together, to all at once begin to execute this monster in our way, to feel the excitement of being so close you can feel it...I think is a great thing. I think we miss out on all of that, the excitement, the gameplay, the mini-game within a game on every fight, the mechanics of bosses, all of that we miss out on by not having more executes.

And heres the big point...Hammer of Wrath NEVER felt as much like a Warriors Execute as Colossus Judgment makes me feel like a warrior. Was Kill Shot so similar to Execute, really? Was Drain Soul doing extra damage so similar to Execute, really? SW: D isn't really like Execute at all. I mean, if the goal of removing executes was to make it a warrior niche and have other classes be less like a warrior...doing everything else they did to ret this expac was a colossal failure in that regard.
Though, as someone else pointed out, they didnt remove executes entirely from other classes, SW: Death still exists.

Thats why I think HoW, and other executes should come back. For rotational, mechanical, gameplay, fantasy reasons.

[Swampmoose]

To be honest, I am seldomly writing on mmo-champion and usually just read for over 5 years already, but people like you are making this forum really toxic. He made some points and you had actually quite good arguments, but they way you display it just seems so hatefull and suppressive. Before you write a huge block of text calling me unintelligent or anything like that, I don't want to offend you with my opinion.

Anyways, Jester Joe and Swampmoose are actually right about the issue of HoW. Maybe the solution would be to not couple it with Wings anymore but just keep it as a normal execute? As I wrote already here, I am a huge fan of HoW, because it does bring back nostalgia which I have to admit, but also because it's a cool spell in general and gave some kind of rotation change during a fight.

What worries me more is actually the clunky playstyle of ret. Just today I got a nice ring update and changed it with my ring which had Haste on it. The missing 4% is just horrible gameplaywise, it just feels so clunky and I hope Blizzard will target that issue foremost

Not going to give a long reply, just going to ask if you're kidding. Let me just copy what I said and his reply.

Bringing back Hammer of Wrath does nothing for the game. It fills a spell slot with something that has had it's time and means one less spot for something new. People need to get over Hammer of Wrath.

What even motivates a person to post such drivel?

I guess a lack of critical thinking, maybe? We tried new. Legion Ret is brand new. It sucks. Why keep asking the devs to piss into the wind when we can go back to tried and true methods? Of course people want Seals and Hammer back. They worked. They were cool. We miss them.

Insulting me from his first post and I'm the one being toxic? I'm not going out of my way to be respectful to someone who throws out insults then plays the victim.

Yeah I am done replying to him. Best to ignore since he cannot conduct himself in a civil manner an cannot handle opposing views.

Please see above hypocrite.

[Futhark]

Pure fantasy:

* 4th Spec Shockadin
* Playable Vrykul Paladins of Tyr

[Fargus]

My fantasy would be to fire the morons who designed this class and make them decent again. Bring back some actual utility, up their damage considerably and most importantly, make them fun.

[Eurytos]

Is this really true though? In Antorus, Garothi, Portal Keeper, Immonar, Aggramar and Argus all have a last phase that needs to end ASAP before it overwhelms you. That's half the bosses there. In ToS it was true for Sazzine, Host, Avatar and KJ so about half there as well. Execute dps matters.

I could quibble about some of those you listed, but maybe I overstated how few soft-enrages there are. I still think it feels different than in the past, and its partly because these soft enrages don't really change what I do. I keep doing the same thing. Not having that change to a rotation, that one extra button to hit in execute range that can increase my damage, thats missing. And i think its a detriment to the gameplay for everyone. Certainly more so than the alleged detriment by allowing more than just warriors to have an execute, or whatever Blizz is saying is the reason.